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Thread: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

  1. #1
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    Default Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Larry Brown is now criticizing Rick Carlisle.

    http://www.indystar.com/articles/6/142224-2766-036.html

    Brown criticizes Carlisle
    Detroit coach says Pacers' campaigning on Artest's behalf is not way to win award.


    Pacers coach Rick Carlisle (left) called members of the media in support of forward Ron Artest for Defensive Player of the Year, which he won. -- John Harrell / Associated Press

    Related content

    • Pacers bide their time
    • Pistons' Brown criticizes Pacers' Carlisle




    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com
    April 29, 2004


    Now Rick Carlisle is being double-teamed. But he's not looking for help.

    Larry Brown joined in the criticism Wednesday of the Indiana Pacers' coach for his promotion of Ron Artest for Defensive Player of the Year, one day after Gregg Popovich's complaints were reported.

    Popovich, speaking with a San Antonio radio station on Monday, accused Carlisle of producing "totally unsubstantiated" statistics to back Artest's candidacy and criticized him for calling some of the NBA media members who vote for the award.

    Popovich had a leading candidate for the award in Bruce Bowen, while Brown had one in Ben Wallace -- who won the past two seasons while playing for Carlisle in Detroit.

    Brown chimed in on the issue while talking with Detroit writers Wednesday.

    "I don't think (campaigning) is right," Brown said. "I don't think there's any place for it.

    "I have a lot of pride in what Ben has done, but stats are a bunch of baloney. Most people use toilet paper for that, or wrap dead fish up in it. But I would never take anything away from Ron Artest. He had a great year and Pop felt the same way."

    Carlisle has been greatly amused by the fallout from Artest's award and feels no anger toward Popovich or Brown. He appeared Tuesday on the same San Antonio radio station that aired Popovich's original comments.

    "It was a hoot," Carlisle said. "I had fun with it."

    Carlisle, while not wanting to escalate the verbal jousting, stood behind the defensive statistic that Popovich and Brown ridiculed.

    At his request, two members of his video staff, Rob Cleveland and Mike Mannix, reviewed each of Artest's defensive possessions over the course of the season and charted how his opponents fared. After about 100 combined hours of research they found that the players Artest guarded averaged 9.4 shots and 8.3 points per game, figures the NBA included in its news release for the defensive award.

    "People throw out these bogus, unsubstantiated stats, so you give them a little static for it," Popovich told San Antonio writers Wednesday.

    Carlisle said he doubted the research won the award for Artest, because Artest also was the leading vote-getter among the coaches, who select the all-defensive team.

    Bowen and Wallace also were named to the first team.

    "I'm glad to hear that both Larry and Pop voted for Ron for first-team all-defense, because I voted for Ben and Bowen first-team," Carlisle said.

    Carlisle also defended his effort to call voters to support some of his players for postseason honors, something he also did two years ago while coaching the Pistons, but not last year.

    "I'm a guy who knows this is a players' league and I'm going to support my players any way I can if I feel they're deserving," Carlisle said.

    "I'm amused that Larry and Pop believe someone like me can have that kind of influence on the media, but I just don't see it."

    Artest wanted to let the issue die Wednesday, but he took exception to Popovich's claim that he did not guard the opposing team's best offensive player most nights.

    "I'm trying to think of one night I didn't," Artest said.

    On Tuesday, Artest had offered to play Bowen one-on-one, with the winner taking the Defensive Player of the Year award. That notion was the subject of more humor.

    "Neither one of them would probably score," Popovich said. "They'd probably both beat the hell out of each other. They'd be suspended for the next game."

    Ultimately, Popovich's assertions about Artest were viewed as an attempt -- although perhaps belated -- to back his player for the honor.

    "I feel like the whole organization was supporting me," Bowen told San Antonio writers. "Whenever you get a coach backing a player, it makes the player feel good to know that. It's sort of like saying I have your back in battle. I appreciate Pop for that. Pop was expressing his opinion, which he's entitled to.

    "It just so happened it turned into a little circus, so to speak."

    Call Star reporter Mark Montieth at (317) 444-6406.

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    I don't think Larry meant anything bad. He just stated his opinion that it really shouldn't be done. He didn't say Rick was a bad person for doing it.

    He also stood up for Ben, which is what you would expect. But he also gave Ron credit.

    I don't think L.Brown will get into a tit for tat in the press with the Pacers. It's not been his style in the past.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Brown gave props to Artest regardless, and claims Pop did the same, but the problem is Pop didn't. He wrongfully claimed Artest is a fake and doesn't really guard the other team's best scorer at 2/3. He also claimed Ron wasn't tough. In other words, he was an ***.

    Brown wasn't. Good for him.

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    Maybe Pop is correct, Artest did not guard the opponents best offensive player every night. Afterall Ronnie did not guard Garnett, Duncan or Shaq, but then again Bowen did not guard J.O, KG or Shaq.

    Maybe Pop is trying get Artest to guard Duncan.

    I'll make a deal with Pop. If the Pacers and Spurs meet in the Finals. Artest will guard Duncan as long as Bowen guards J.O. I like our chances in those matchups

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    This will just make it all the sweeter when we kick Detroit's and San Antonio's asses.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Oh yeah, all because Larry had the GALL to state his opinion. Wow, whata RIP-JOB...

    Does the Indystar always have such misleading headlines?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    How's the headline misleading?

    It's three little words: Brown Criticizes Carlisle

    And he did. What would you suggest the headline be?

  8. #8

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    Oh yeah, all because Larry had the GALL to state his opinion. Wow, whata RIP-JOB...

    Does the Indystar always have such misleading headlines?
    It's also nice to state his opinion by discrediting an opposing coach's view, especially when one coach did it days before. Seems as though things just want to pile up, don't they?

    If people have a problem with the way that Carlisle does things, tell it to him straight to his face, not by making an *** of yourself through the media. Morons.

    I think Conrad puts it nicely:

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/question_040429.html

    Q. (Spurs coach Gregg) Popovich recently sounded off about his disgust for (Rick) Carlisle’s award-campaigning. What business is it of his? And why would it matter to Pop? Is campaigning for awards that bad? (From Scott in Toronto, Canada)

    A. Larry Brown joined Popovich (his U.S. Olympic Team assistant) yesterday, aligning against Carlisle’s campaign on behalf of Artest for Defensive Player of the Year while also criticizing the statistics the Pacers coach asked his film crew to break down. Among other things, Brown said, the stats “are a bunch of baloney. Most people use toilet paper for that or to wrap dead fish.” Of course, the two coaches protesting are the ones with players they felt should’ve, or could’ve, won the award – Bruce Bowen of the Spurs and Ben Wallace of the Pistons.

    But a few important points are being lost in the arguments. For one, it’s not clear how big an impact Carlisle’s phone calls to media members made. He also campaigned on behalf of Jermaine O’Neal for MVP and Al Harrington for Sixth Man. Harrington didn’t win, and it doesn’t appear O’Neal will, either. Carlisle didn’t call the coaches who vote for the All-Defensive team, and they gave Artest more votes than any other player including Wallace and Bowen, which validates the media vote for Defensive Player of the Year.

    Carlisle has been campaigning for his players for three years. I don’t recall hearing any protests from other coaches the past two years when Wallace won. And, frankly, it surprises me that anyone – particularly another coach -- would react so strongly to a coach acting on behalf of his players. It’s also disappointing that two great coaches and class acts like Brown and Popovich are giving the appearance of sore losers. But these are all very competitive people, and none of them take losing well. If they did, they wouldn’t be among the biggest winners in their profession.

    Let’s cut to the chase here: Artest won the Defensive Player of the Award because he was the most deserving – in the eyes of both the coaches and the media. Any argument otherwise, regardless of the source, is moot.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  9. #9
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Hey - that is my question that I asked!!! LOL - cool - Conrad actually answered.

  10. #10
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    Very good answer by Bruno. With Brown and Pop complaining about what Rick does in his own time, that in reverse means they're putting the name out for their guys after the fact. Hypocritical on their part in my opinion.

    All coaches campaign for things whether they think they do or not. Coaches getting on officials cases, that's campaigning during the games for their guys to get calls.

    Coaches praising guys in post game press conferences, that's campaigning for a guy after a job well done.

    Coaches campaign for their guys to make the All Star team as a reserve. It happens everywhere.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Will there be a coach #3 voice his opinion

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    One thing to note in all of this:

    The two coaches critcizing Carlisle are those whose players finished second (Wallace) and third (Bowen) in the DPOY voting.

    Another thing:

    I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.

    Greg Popvich + Larry Brown = Sore Losers

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Will there be a coach #3 voice his opinion
    Nope, because nobody else's player came close to Ron, Ben, or Bruce in the DPOY voting. Now, had Al won 6th Man or Jermaine MVP, then yeah, we'd probably be hearing ***** from Flip Saunders and Don Nelson.

  14. #14

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    Another thing:

    I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.
    And HE of all people was critisizing Carlisle for it. Hyporcrite.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Another thing:

    I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.
    And HE of all people was critisizing Carlisle for it. Hyporcrite.
    Carlisle campaigned for Stackhouse. He Campaigned for Williamson. He did NOT campaign for Wallace. Thats a misconception.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  16. #16
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    I don't hear Jerry Sloan complaining - and he had a great defensive player in Kirilenko.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Another thing:

    I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.
    And HE of all people was critisizing Carlisle for it. Hyporcrite.
    Carlisle campaigned for Stackhouse. He Campaigned for Williamson. He did NOT campaign for Wallace. Thats a misconception.
    Anyone have links to prove or disprove this? Until this statement everything I'd heard said Rick did campaign for Benny.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Listening to Ricks Response , I heard him say his First year he campaigned for Cliff Robinson for DPOY and he says he only campaigned for players his first year in detriot.

    it's around the 6:40 mark in the interview
    around the 7:40 mark he says he only campaigned in detriot his first year

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    Another thing:

    I never ONCE heard Wallace complain when Carlisle campaigned for him, helping him win the DPOY award two years ago I might add.
    And HE of all people was critisizing Carlisle for it. Hyporcrite.
    Carlisle campaigned for Stackhouse. He Campaigned for Williamson. He did NOT campaign for Wallace. Thats a misconception.
    http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick...0/1366345.html

    Carlisle told me that he felt it was part of his job description. Carlisle feels that he should coach, guide, help and promote his players -- and that campaigning for his players in worthy categories was part of his day. He was calling about Ben Wallace for Defensive Player of the Year (Wallace already had my vote). He was also promoting Corliss Williamson for Sixth Man of the Year. And he put in some words for Jerry Stackhouse for Second or Third Team All-NBA, reminding me that Stackhouse has adjusted and sacrificed his game for a team that won its division.
    Here's another:

    http://www.wzzm13.com/sports/basketb...?storyid=25976

    Artest was assisted by clever campaigning from Pacers Coach Rick Carlisle, who did the same for Wallace two years ago.
    And yet another:

    http://www.jsonline.com/sports/buck/apr02/34985.asp

    Detroit's Carlisle took to the phones last week, calling reporters and diplomatically campaigning for Wallace and Williamson in their catagories, and for Jerry Stackhouse for a second or third all-league spot. Carlisle made so many calls - 140 was the official tally - that he was contacted by his long-distance carrier as a security measure to make sure the calls were all legitimate.
    That's an awful lot of "misconception."

    I'm sure I could find more examples, but I think I've made my point.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    wow rick must have had a brain fart becuase in his audio interview he said he called pops and asked him to vote for Cliff Robision for DPOY in his first year and he also says he didn't compaign the 2nd year

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    wow rick must have had a brain fart becuase in his audio interview he said he called pops and asked him to vote for Cliff Robision for DPOY in his first year and he also says he didn't compaign the 2nd year
    That's true. He only campaigned in 2002.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    wow rick must have had a brain fart becuase in his audio interview he said he called pops and asked him to vote for Cliff Robision for DPOY in his first year and he also says he didn't compaign the 2nd year
    That's true. He only campaigned in 2002.
    In which Ben Wallace was the one receiving the help. Maybe he did it for both.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    wow rick must have had a brain fart becuase in his audio interview he said he called pops and asked him to vote for Cliff Robision for DPOY in his first year and he also says he didn't compaign the 2nd year
    That's true. He only campaigned in 2002.
    In which Ben Wallace was the one receiving the help. Maybe he did it for both.
    But why would rick say he called pops to ask him for his vote for cliff robinson for DPOY , if he was campaining for ben

  24. #24
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    I think you need to stop the blind hatred and re-read what has been going on.

    Larry Brown is not complaining about the campaigning it is the stat break down that he had his staff do.

    They as with most believe that was over the top.

    And yes Rick did campaign for Ben, he called but he did not do the stat thing in Detroit.

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    Default Re: Just When You Thought This Was Over...

    I think you need to stop the blind hatred and re-read what has been going on.

    Larry Brown is not complaining about the campaigning it is the stat break down that he had his staff do.

    They as with most believe that was over the top.

    And yes Rick did campaign for Ben, he called but he did not do the stat thing in Detroit.
    Err...

    "I don't think (campaigning) is right," Brown said. "I don't think there's any place for it."

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