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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

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We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

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If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

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The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

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  • #1

    The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

    Hello all, Im back for my usual Sunday afternoon Pacers Digest posting.

    Today I want to discuss the preseason games, and how coaches and players use it in different ways. I've been reading everyone's thoughts on our first 2 games so far, including UB's and Peck's takes on the games, and wanted to start a discussion about what preseason is really used for, and what if anything it really means.

    From my perspective, I can tell you that I think most people I read on here are getting way too worked up, both positively and negatively, about what you are seeing.....in some cases your eyes are playing tricks on you in some ways. You guys and gals need to all take a deep breath and relax......

    There are many examples of preseason hysteria being meaningless in not just the NBA but in every other professional sport. Rational people can recognize this, but yet many of those who know it intellectually forget it when it comes to their own teams. How many of you remember now who had the best record or the most home runs or the best batting average in spring training this season in baseball? How many of you could tell in spring training that the Tigers would end up in the World Series?

    In football, the Colts annually look like crap in the preseason, yet always seem to be one of the best teams in the NFL.....and my local IU Hoosiers didnt look that good in their short scrimmage Friday night, but Im not all that worried about it. Basically, there is little a fan can take from preseason games about either a particular player, or a coach, or basically anything you see. This is true in both a positive and negative way.....just because the Jazz looked pretty decent against us the other night, doesnt mean they should start printing playoff tickets in Salt Lake City already does it? Of course not....and we shouldn't be panicking in the streets either.

    As a coach, you arent looking to win these games at all, you are trying to pare down your roster, identify the strengths and weaknesses of your own players, and maybe find out some info on your opponents for later use as well. You do your best to show your opposing coaches very little of what you plan to do when the games are real, you always hold back alot of your best plays and strategies.

    For individual players, during games that count your goal as a coach is to always put each individual player in the best possible position to succeed. However, in preseason its quite likely that you may try and do the very opposite thing....in fact, you may intentionally put guys in tough spots, to see how they react to adversity or lack of success. You may play a guy in the preseason out of position, just to see if he can handle that role if you need him to in an emergency sometime in February. You may call plays that you are developing or working on, just to experiment and see if what you've drawn up in the summer will work in real life. You may even intentionally run plays you have no plans to use, just to throw off the opponents scouting and preparations. You may play odd combinations of players that you'd never consider playing as a group if the game counted, just to see what happens. You may try different pregame meals, different warmup procedures, different things during timeouts, different starting lineups, and anything else you want to do to just generate tape for study later, and to try a new approach. Preseason is just one big lab experiment for coaches, so please dont read too much either way in how they interact with each other, who seems to have what role, and how they disperse playing time....it all means nothing. What you are trying to do as a staff however, is establish a winning "mood" and atmosphere, and establishing boundaries, rules, and a method and enthusiasm conducive to winning. You need to get your players to buy into whatever it is you are selling and telling them. Only in that sense is preseason important to a coach, not the win loss record or the box score.

    As a player who is established, preseason also has an different meaning. its the time to work on that new move you've been developing over the summer, its the time to try different ways to guard an opponent you will see again in December, and it may be time to pass the ball to a teammate in a tough spot just to see how he handles the ball or if he can make the shot. its a time for you to communicate with your coaches to identify who your game seems to mesh the best with, what plays and areas of the floor you prefer, and how best your coaching staff can utilize you. Its about gaining your timing with one another again, and getting to know your new teammates better. Its about getting used to the new basketball, any new rules and officials, new arenas, new fans, and in many cases finding a new home and schools and such for your family. Its about getting comfortable and focused on your health, and your attitude.

    For a non established player, its about making the team....if not the one you are with, then another one in the league. Its about playing the right way, working hard, and doing your absolute most in order to keep your job. For almost everyone in the world, being an NBA player would be a dream lifestyle and life accomplishment, so doing whatever is necessary to keep or achieve that goal has to be paramount in your mind. At times in the preseason, its very possible and even likely that you may make plays or do things or try things that you wouldnt otherwise do if you were already on the team for sure. Maybe you take that tough shot attempt, maybe you try and make the spectacular pass, maybe you gamble and go for the steal attempt when you shouldnt.....there are a million different things that can sunconsciously cause you to play for yourself and not always for the team....and that doesnt make you a bad guy, its just the way it is.

    Preseason is for all of that you guys.....the results and the wins and losses, the scores and the stats, they all are meaningless. Don't worry so much about how we look offensively, or how each individual player looks, or whatever.....it doesnt mean anything positively or negatively.

    Everybody relax and enjoy basketball again, and quit worrying about everything. After about 15 games or so, then we can make a preliminary judgement, anything before that is just too short a sample.

    JMO, as always.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

    I really like your posts! You and Naptown Seth are good additions to this forum! There's others but I don't remember their names right now.

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

      Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
      Everybody relax and enjoy basketball again, and quit worrying about everything. After about 15 games or so, then we can make a preliminary judgement, anything before that is just too short a sample.

      JMO, as always.


      I agree, but in my defense I thought Tinsley's and Saras' defense last year weren't very good, it isn't like they are new players and it isn't like I formed my opinion on these two guys based upon one meaningless preseason game. Last preseason I was giving Saras a lot of the benefit of the doubt up until about January because he was new.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

        Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
        I agree, but in my defense I thought Tinsley's and Saras' defense last year weren't very good, it isn't like they are new players and it isn't like I formed my opinion on these two guys based upon one meaningless preseason game. Last preseason I was giving Saras a lot of the benefit of the doubt up until about January because he was new.

        We dont have any particular difference in opinion on the defensive merits and abilities of these 2 players UB....people who know me and my preferred style of play know I prefer a defensive first point guard (hence my love for the game of Haywoode Workman back in the day). The relative lack of defensive pressure on the ball by Tinsley and especially Sarunas drives me nuts as I watch them. I even posted a few days ago (in my thread about the incident's aftermath) that I think my preferred starting lineup at this very moment was Darrell Armstrong at point guard, just to establish the defensive and leadership/attitude mindset to start the season and each game.

        With that in mind, you still can't look to put any meaning in these games at all....none whatsoever. Just like in the NFL, these games are nothing but a moneygrab by the owners, and in both personnel and style and intensity bear little resemblance to what the regular season will look like.

        Our first game against New Jersey when we won, people were on here almost giddy about style of play, Oriene Greene (who I like also, to be fair), and how athletic we looked. A few nights later, we lose and play poorly, and everyone thinks the sky is falling and we are bound for the lottery.....my point in starting this thread was to just get everyone to chill out a little, and not get high or low about what you see in these games.

        JMO

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

          The best way to use pre-season is to start a panick about as many things as possible, thus making any kind of above .500 performance a success.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

            I dug this thread up from the archives, rather than trying to write a similar thread today. Most of my original post I think is still pertinant today.

            Basically, let's remember to try and not get either too high or too low on how the rest of the preseason goes....maybe a little friendly reminder might make everyone relax a bit, and not to either drink the kool aid or to start counting down until the lottery in 08.

            Just my opinion of course.

            Tbird

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

              Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
              I dug this thread up from the archives, rather than trying to write a similar thread today. Most of my original post I think is still pertinant today.

              Basically, let's remember to try and not get either too high or too low on how the rest of the preseason goes....maybe a little friendly reminder might make everyone relax a bit, and not to either drink the kool aid or to start counting down until the lottery in 08.

              Just my opinion of course.

              Tbird

              Its a little different this year because we are observing a new system. I agree that you cannot judge a team in terms of potential wins and losses and/or player performance in the preseason, but I believe that it is acceptible to judge a system in terms of entertainment.
              Slug 'em Sabres!!!!!
              http://youtube.com/watch?v=cj1SUF4wzu0

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

                i hate preseason as a spectator. Even if I look through the eyes of a person trying to see situational play I am still a fan. I get excited when Diogu goes nuts in the 4th. I get angry when we have players fouling out only playing 20 minuets. I know it may be because he is the only true post defender on the court or he is guarding a permiter player just so the coach can assess.

                All in all I want to see effort. That is why I am excited about the preseaon. The effort is there. Can this effort persist in the regular season? Will it arise when most needed in the 4th quarter? When April looms around can this energy remain? Will injuries kill it? Will trials and tribulations damage it? Is this energy just a mirage of the preseason? Where are we? What am I doing? Did I just eat lunch?

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

                  Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                  I dug this thread up from the archives, rather than trying to write a similar thread today. Most of my original post I think is still pertinant today.

                  Basically, let's remember to try and not get either too high or too low on how the rest of the preseason goes....maybe a little friendly reminder might make everyone relax a bit, and not to either drink the kool aid or to start counting down until the lottery in 08.

                  Just my opinion of course.

                  Tbird
                  This was a much needed bump.
                  I'm in these bands
                  The Humans
                  Dr. Goldfoot
                  The Bar Brawlers
                  ME

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

                    I have to agree that we shouldn't look too much into pre-season wins and losses. The thing I have liked so far is the fact that it seems that the players actually care about what is going on. Even though play is a bit sloppy at times, they are picking up the new system pretty well. The defensive end will be the longest to learn because of all of the small details of providing help defense in various situations.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

                      I'm going to comment here instead of in the Grizz postgame thread because I think this is a better spot to have the discussion.

                      I think this year the coach IS looking for wins as well as development. There is a real need to get this city excited about the Pacers again, and an undefeated preseason with an exciting style of play will do some of that, especially for those who don't understand preseason the same as we do.

                      I also think that, for the morale of the team, being on the upside of a beatin' will instill a bit of confidence (swagger, as it was put in the other thread) that is required for a team to be aggressive rather than hesitant.

                      What I think we're seeing is that JOB has the team going all out in the first half to get well ahead offensively. He then is free to use the second half to play a bit with rotations/matchups/sets/situations. The downside is that it's only half a game to perform those functions rather than the beginning of the game. The upside is that it gets the win as well as the practice.

                      It will be interesting to see how the games go this weekend - JOB seems to be talking about resting more players and using more of the game for the bench and subs to work out. It strikes me that even on PD there are those e4xpecting to base their early season opinion of the team on the next few preseason games - what if those are done as tbird explains and are not focused on wins, points, or pretty and easy plays?
                      BillS

                      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                      Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

                        I've been to two preseason games and what I see is a Pacers team that looks about 4 weeks ahead of the teams they have played. The Pacers have a plan on how to play defense and offense, they look like they have been playing about 4 weeks longer than these othere teams. The question is will that "even out" over a longer period of time.

                        I'm starting to believe the Pacers will get off to a pretty good start this season - in fact I'm expecting their November record to be quite good. The real test will be later in the season when talent takes over and early coaching is less important.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

                          Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                          I dug this thread up from the archives, rather than trying to write a similar thread today. Most of my original post I think is still pertinant today.

                          Basically, let's remember to try and not get either too high or too low on how the rest of the preseason goes....maybe a little friendly reminder might make everyone relax a bit, and not to either drink the kool aid or to start counting down until the lottery in 08.

                          Just my opinion of course.

                          Tbird
                          Just for the record T'Bird, this is how I look at preseason for all 3 majors, and all 3 are very differnet in how they are approached. In my roto ball league I've grabbed a ton of successful guys in the draft specifcially from attending 8-10 spring training games and noticing how they played rather than results.

                          With the Pacers my concerns are:

                          Defense. Despite the focus it's been pretty awful at times, worse than last year. For the most part it seems just like last year, JO saving everyone's butt.

                          When the Sonics take the ball out of the net and have a non-cherry pick dunk the other way in 2 seconds, basically just running past all the Pacers, you notice and worry. When it happens again for a layup within 4 seconds of a slow change of possession (vs hard break on steal, long rebound) you really notice.

                          If this is what they are working on it hasn't seemed to help. They did disrupt Memphis fairly well in the first half, but nearly 40 points in the 3rd quarter with the starters playing the first half of that quarter? That should kick on the alarm a little.

                          4 games left to adjust, plus probably a few weeks into the season as well, just how things go. It just seems behind schedule right now.


                          Shooting. This was a big issue and at times the Pacers have solved this with scorching bursts of high make rates. But by the end of the game the team is around 40% which is worse than last year's league low average.

                          IMO not everyone yet gets JOB's method and some guys (Danny especially) are forcing their shots. Diener had one great game, but since then is blah. Owens is also spotty. And Tins just handed out another 3-11 from the floor that most fans would consider old news based on the last few years from him.

                          Bench depth To me there has been a big drop off in play between starters and bench. Ike worries me because I'm not sold that I've seen more from him than we saw last year. Danny is a starter but I have a similar worry on him (3 ball sure, but overall not smooth). Diener seems fine, definitely better than Saras as far as I can tell. Owens off and on, I do like the quickness but he's a little rough still as far as I can make out.



                          The good

                          JO is on track. Quis is on track. Foster is on track. Dunleavy is on track PLUS has the 3ball going so far (early but hopeful)

                          Offensive movement
                          They work the ball around fairly well, no PERIMETER ball holding that used to plague them. For all the rants on JO, IMO it was always the outside guys jab stepping and stuff in iso that halted the flow.

                          There is little of this and my guess is that JOB is saying "either you've got the space to go, the shot to take, or you don't, and if you don't then keep the ball moving till it gets to someone who does". To me that's what the ball movement and rotations have looked like.

                          Plus off the ball you are getting really strong 3 man games, screening for all sorts of other spacing. And you are seeing new angles coming to the low and midpost. When you see JO at the high post feeding guys coming at an angle to the midpost in the lane you know things are different in the playbook.


                          The energy It's up over last spring, but to be fair it was up last fall too with the promise of running and their sloppy attempts to do so. One difference here is that when they push the ball to the front court it actually has gotten done smoothly. It's not the messy, misdirected energy of last year. They haven't rushed up for a full break, they more typically just hurry over the timeline and quickly get their first offensive pass in place even if a shot is still 10-12 seconds away.


                          As mentioned it is a NEW SYSTEM, and that makes it tough to sort out the player vs system awareness issues. Am I seeing the system run correctly but failing (or succeeding) or is the failure/success stemming from them not doing it correctly.

                          My gut on this so far is that the system isn't really in place correctly at all, that this is just a skewed version of it. I can agree with Buck that they've been ahead of the teams they've seen so far, but I'm not sure it's as close as it needs to be.

                          Plus Seattle did have a solid offensive gameplan in place, often slowing down to rotate the ball and look for something different, mixed in with quick, effective attacks as a counter. Their ability to score was based on the system and their ability to execute often fell on guys missing open shots, guys who normally wouldn't get that shot I think.

                          But regardless the Pacers do have some sort of focus on offense, defense seems more confused though last night may have looked better based on the steals/deflections aspects.



                          One final note - preseason NBA is not as easily dismissed as the NFL or MLB. First off MLB pitchers do work on pitches more than they try to set up batters, so you can't gauge their results at all other than how their stuff looked overall (huge, hard breaking curve, good heat, variety or command of pitches, etc)

                          The NFL you just only see the starters out there for maybe 6 quarters total out of 16-20. The rest is bench, and typically guys that might not play at all during games. The backup DL gets in from time to time, but not like the 8th man on a basketball team gets into games.

                          In the NBA starters typically play a decent amount of minutes scattered throughout the game. Tins just went the entire 4th, JO started both the 3rd and 4th quarter of a blowout. The same is true for other teams.

                          Sometimes it's guys 10-15 on the bench, but it's far more than 50% of the time that it's not this way, unlike the NFL.

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                          • #14
                            Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

                            Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
                            I've been to two preseason games and what I see is a Pacers team that looks about 4 weeks ahead of the teams they have played. The Pacers have a plan on how to play defense and offense, they look like they have been playing about 4 weeks longer than these othere teams. The question is will that "even out" over a longer period of time.

                            I'm starting to believe the Pacers will get off to a pretty good start this season - in fact I'm expecting their November record to be quite good. The real test will be later in the season when talent takes over and early coaching is less important.
                            or the annual JO injury occurs right Seth?

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                            • #15
                              Re: The meaning of preseason, and how to use it effectively

                              Originally posted by intridcold View Post
                              or the annual JO injury occurs right Seth?
                              I think he's outstanding, but there is no avoiding this concern now. Maybe if the rest of the team gets it done more often it will relieve some of the physical demands put on him. Taking charges is great, but the guy shouldn't have to take 40-50 a year, maybe do something to keep the guy from getting there in the first place.

                              And those double and triples on the other end. Sheesh, keep moving and give him options to burn those (so far they have been doing this fairly well).

                              Imagine you are a Suns fans and don't wring your hands in worry that Nash will yet again miss 20 games. That would be really nice.

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