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Thread: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

  1. #26
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    its one preseason game people, it could have been one of many factors..rick could have been testing some new stuff/ the players were distracted by Jack...media etc

    Sure it wasnt the best playing, but im not gonna rush to judge..after all its the preaseason. I will say this thought they do need to play alot better or PGs didnt play good at all and thats unacceptable.

    If you havin' depth problems, I feel bad for you son; I got 99 problems but a bench ain't one! - Hicks
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  2. #27

    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    My wife, Pizza Guy and I attended the game last night and enjoyed the experience. However, the game was poorly played. There were too many fouls called which did not allow the Pacers to get into any kind of rythm or flow.

    Steve Jackson was booed just one time that meant anything. The others were halfhearted efforts. Probably brought on by a poorly played, boring excuse for a ball game. I thought it was fitting the first time Jax got the ball he threw it away. Sort of like his career at this point.

    I was dissapointed in the over all effort through the first three quarters. If AL had not connected well from the line we would have lost by 20+.

    Armstrong was good in the fourth quarter. At least he tried.

    I was hoping to see Baston play but he didn't. (sore foot)

    Is JO one of the most over hyped, over paid players in the league? I thought so tonight. Being it was his first game back plus it being Jacksons first game back probably accounts for the awful flow of the game. It just never seemed to get going. The crowd wanted to get into it but there was nothing to get into. Tinsley seemed lethargic, Danny was OK but there was a total lack of all out effort tonight.

    Sarunas couldn't get anything going either. The ball just does not move around enough to take advantage of his talents. Especially when Jax and JO are in there. David developed an attitude, got a tech and sat out for the last quarter or more. I was hoping he had matured some over the summer. Oh well.

    There was speed, quickness, energy and effort shown on the floor tonight, unfortunately, it was all from the Utah Jazz.

    The announced crowd was around 12500 but it seemed to lack even that number. Lots of empty seats. It was just a preseason game so it has to get better. right?

    All in all, I came away from the game feeling flat. Not excited and not totally depressed, just flat.

    It has to get better.

  3. #28

    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    UB, I agree about Saras! He can't handle the ball, couldn't last year and from what i've read evidently hew has not improved over the summer. Deron Williams was the 2nd best PG in the draft last year and will be a great player in the years to come. He was tough at Illinois and I expected him to be solid in the NBA. So don't take Deron so litely. Jamal prob. fired up a blunt on the way to the game... its a preseason game you know? Armstrong was brought in as a safety blanket. The guy can handle the ball, not a big scorer but a good dish man. I could see Armstrong playing some minutes this year. I wouldn't put so much in this preseason game. We have 18-19 guys on this team and some of them won't play a single minute this year for the P's. I want to evaluate this team after our final roster is set and we've had a chance to play 4-5 games.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
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  4. #29
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    yeah if people are gonna bash runi they can take it elsewhere...people need to really stop trying to blame him its not his fault.

    If you havin' depth problems, I feel bad for you son; I got 99 problems but a bench ain't one! - Hicks
    @thatguyjoe84

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    One man show ajbry's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    People have every right to blame Saras - our "prized" free agent acquisition of last offseason has done absolutely nothing to help this team. There's really no possible way we can let him off the hook, he has flat-out *removed*

  6. #31

    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    This forum reverts sometimes to mass hysteria.
    The season hasn't begun yet, it's early training camp for crying out loud. get a grip!

  7. #32
    Member Just's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    I actually think our PG spot will be acceptable/good once Saras is benched, which is almost inevitable. Tins is usually good, and Greene/DA/Quis will bring pressure D off the bench.


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    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Don't overreact to one preseason game.
    Second line......
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  9. #34
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by indy0731 View Post
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    And Tinsley and Sarunas were very good against the Nets so, its a meaningless preseason game. Lets wait for the reg season to cast judgement UB.
    Exactly. There's nothing more to say really. This is ridiculous.

    And now is as good of a time as any to remind everyone about one of our rules:

    4. No Verbal Attacks on any Players, Coaches, Staff, Management, or Owners.

    Posts like this are not acceptable and will be removed when seen. This is the difference between saying something similar to "Player X sucks" and discussing the weaknesses of said player. It includes "*Person X* is a *insert rude/crude term or phrase here*". This also includes playing with the names of these people to insult them such as "Jasisuckavic" in place of "Jasikevicius", "Jackasson" in place of "Jackson", or "Prick Carlisle". We have no issue with criticizing the players or anyone else involved, but it can not be rude or childish name-calling or anything in that neighborhood.

  10. #35

    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I Deron isn't even a top 10 point guard or top 15 point guard.
    Based on his dedication, shape and confidence level he will be in top 10 this season if not in top 5.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
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    yeah if people are gonna bash runi they can take it elsewhere...people need to really stop trying to blame him its not his fault.
    Whos fault is that he cant play good? Is it our fault? I wish he was the best player in the NBA but he isnt, and he is not a NBA player. Why everyone drools over this guy and pretends that he is going to become John Stockton for us is beyond me.

  12. #37
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    This is why the pacers can't afford to cut Greene or Hunter just yet.
    You can still cut Hunter because his defense is on par with Cabbages.

    I do agree that it's becoming clear that Greene has to stay. He and Marshall seem the most on the bubble to me, but the need for Greene coupled with any more just okay outings by Marshall really put OG in a good spot. At this point based on Walsh's comments after the broken finger, it seems certain that Greene is staying.

    I didn't get to see the Utah game, but based on the recaps, the box score and what I saw from him in game 1 and FanJam, he's a big problem. Nothing has changed - great vision, strong passer, nothing else. Doesn't look like it's enough.

    Tinsley I agree is mostly a get the steal or nothing type of defender, but at least that steal is in the mix...and he won't give the ball up just on pressure. I'd rather have a PG with 5 TOs that all came from aggressive passes that didn't work, because at least it was an offensive chance and his teammates know the ball can be coming at any time. Plus he only took 3 shots so it's not like he forces his own offense.

    IMO Tinsley looked rusty in game 1.



    One issue with the defense is that to me I see a lot of aggressive rotations, long before PnR switches and stuff like that. They appear to be trying to read ahead on plays and put themselves in front of the offense. That's going to be very effective when it's done right, but it also means guys are going to be asked to make a lot of tough reads. So that might sputter along in the early going with fits and starts of good and bad nights.


    To me the strongest sign about the new offense was a 2nd game of only EIGHT 3PA! That's insanely low compared to the amount they've been jacking up the last 2 years. Jack only took 1 himself. Add to it JO and Al getting to the FT line 31 times and that's a very good indicator of their desire to attack the basket.

    The FG% was low, and Jack's 1-6 didn't help, but there was a lot to Hunter-Powell-Williams-SarJas going 1-16 that hurt too. That same group went 0-4 from 3, 0-5 if you add in Jack. The reality is that Jack saw almost a normal game of playing time and looks in the new system (IMO) and put up one of his low-end efforts which had to be affected a little by circumstances.

    The good news is that the other reality is that Hunter won't be with the team missing those shots, and Williams will be unlikely to get off the bench this season. Even Powell will be pretty deep in the rotation, so the 38 minutes from those 3 will be playing time going to Foster, Harrison and Daniels instead.

    And if SarJas keeps playing like this he WILL end up behind Armstrong (and Greene when he returns) so his minutes will either be more effective or non-existant.

    I don't think the team has serious concerns actually. This is a year for guys like Williams, Powell, maybe Marshall if he makes it, to learn to play at a higher level. The main core of minutes will go to guys that can get it done and have shown that...yes, even Tinsley.

    A lot of what we are doing which I mentioned after game 1 even is looking at guys that are playing for spots 11-15 on the team, which is not in the regular rotation.



    Deron Williams is supposed to be top 15 this year I think. A lot of people expect him to be moving toward elite PG status. That was no hack out on the court.

  13. #38

    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac View Post
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    Whos fault is that he cant play good? Is it our fault? I wish he was the best player in the NBA but he isnt, and he is not a NBA player. Why everyone drools over this guy and pretends that he is going to become John Stockton for us is beyond me.
    He chose the wrong team where his abilities are not utilized properly. Thats the price he payed last season, it looks like he is going to sit a lot this season as well, and next season he might, just maybe return to Tel Aviv, where he had his reigns and was worshiped by all fans and media, etc.

  14. #39
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Destined4Greatness View Post
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    For every game that tinsley has where he *removed* he is spectacular in two. But yeah Runi does *removed*.

    Well its preseason, the other guys are playing for their lives. Tins knows he is in the clear.
    Sorry, but if last year was any indication for every game Tinsley played - he was spectacularly on the bench the next two.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    OK, I watched the same games that everyone else did. I thought that both Tinsley and Sarunas performed quite well in Preseason Game 1.

    With these major exceptions: Tinsley has not demonstrated the defense that I remember from him. He's a liability there that I don't remember.

    Sarunas is absolutely terrible as a shooting guard, and a complete black hole when he catches the ball on the wing. If the team passes him the ball on the wing he shoots it every time. Combine that with his horrendous percentage on the wing and the problem is even worse.

    BUT - both guys were really good playmakers in game one, which I consider the #1 responsibility of the point guard position.

    It's absolutly ridiculous that both Tinsley and Saras are on the floor at the same time. I don't have the stats, but my guess is that our team goes in the hole when they are on the floor together.

    Saras is incapable of playing the 2. I think Rick is the only one that doesn't believe that by now.

    Still neither of these guys stink, they just both had a bad game on the same game, which amplified the situation.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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  16. #41
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Exactly. There's nothing more to say really. This is ridiculous.

    And now is as good of a time as any to remind everyone about one of our rules:
    I apologize for my word choice, I was wrong and it won't happen again. I have changed my original post.

  17. #42
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Calgary Jazz View Post
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    He chose the wrong team where his abilities are not utilized properly.
    What team would utilize him properly?

    What teams out there don't require their guards to be able to dribble?

  18. #43
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    What teams out there don't require their guards to be able to dribble?
    LOL. None.

    I will admit that I was a big time supporter of Saras coming. I saw his leadership, confidence and passing ability to be his strengths. I now see the considerable, possibly insurmountable flaws in his game within the context of the NBA.

    Many times Saras supporters will say that he needs the right team around him, or the right system to support his shortcomings on defense and ball handling. I think these "adjustments" can be made in the Euro game, but not the NBA. The problem comes down to the fact that Saras' weaknesses center on quickness....and quickness is the area where the NBA differs from Euro the very most. Quickness is the reason why guys like Steve Alford are not in the NBA hall of fame.

    The truth is, all the other team needs to do to take Saras out of the game entirely is to put one on one ball pressure on him. No double team is even needed. This either forces the ball out of his hands or forces a turnover. Saras' value as a player is not at SG. It is PG when he is leading and directing the offense. He cannot do that without the ball.

    Like I said, I was excited when we signed him. I now see he is not a good fit for the NBA game.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by aero View Post
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    yeah if people are gonna bash runi they can take it elsewhere...people need to really stop trying to blame him its not his fault.
    LMAO!!! It's not his fault that he can't bring the ball up the floor under pressure?

  20. #45

    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    LOL. None.

    I will admit that I was a big time supporter of Saras coming. I saw his leadership, confidence and passing ability to be his strengths. I now see the considerable, possibly insurmountable flaws in his game within the context of the NBA.

    Many times Saras supporters will say that he needs the right team around him, or the right system to support his shortcomings on defense and ball handling. I think these "adjustments" can be made in the Euro game, but not the NBA. The problem comes down to the fact that Saras' weaknesses center on quickness....and quickness is the area where the NBA differs from Euro the very most. Quickness is the reason why guys like Steve Alford are not in the NBA hall of fame.

    The truth is, all the other team needs to do to take Saras out of the game entirely is to put one on one ball pressure on him. No double team is even needed. This either forces the ball out of his hands or forces a turnover. Saras' value as a player is not at SG. It is PG when he is leading and directing the offense. He cannot do that without the ball.

    Like I said, I was excited when we signed him. I now see he is not a good fit for the NBA game.
    Hi BlueNGold,
    I find your points very valid, and unprejudiced. Just wanted to offer a slightly different view, I'd like your opinion on it.
    Thing is, I happened to see Saras playing in Europe against excellent defenders.
    Now, as you strike me as someone who can think for himself, you'll understand the Euroleague has many players that can defend in NBA level. Many of those are Americans who have'nt got the offense or size or luck or whatever to compete in the NBA. Think NBA 3rd or 4th stringers PGs. Many of them can defend well and many of them will find themselves in Europe.

    Thing is, Saras was a top Euroleague PG against these guys too. I saw him struggling on occasions, but the impact on the game was nothing comparing to the benefits.
    How come?
    The answer lies in the offense game of the whole team. The game in Europe is not based on 1/1 moves, but on ball movement.

    Saras may be one of the poorest 1/1 players in the NBA currently, but he is a legend when the team is playing in an offensive system that is closer to the Euro one. When this happens, it almost doesn't matter how skilled is the defender in terms of ball pressure on the ground, because the ball stays much less on the ground.

    The current dominant style in the NBA, and the style the Pacers were playing last season did not suit Saras. I thought he might make some adjustments, but ultimately - you may be right. If you play him with isolation oriented guys like Jax, JO, Al, you lose much of what he can bring to the table.

    I believe we will eventually see some Euro style offense in the NBA. The day is not far. But until then, Saras may very much be a non-fit. I still have hope though..

    On the defensive edge, Saras was a liability in Maccabi too. The coach eased it using zone defense, which is much more popular there.

    Anyway, that's my 2 cents..

  21. #46
    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    So apparently Saras will run point by passing the ball to someone else?

    If he can't bring the ball upcourt then he can't run point.

    And if he can't shoot and doesn't have good shot selection then he can't play the 2.

    The Pacers have enough quality forwards.

    Can Saras play center? It looks like he'll have to if he wants to wear blue and gold AND see playing time.
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  22. #47
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    I firmly believe Saras will play very little if at all during the regular season. Armstrong, Greene and Marquis will get the point guard minutes.


    Another thing has me concerned about last night's game. I realize the game wasn't on TV, so only those who were there saw it. (was it on NBA LP?) The Jazz had very little trouble guarding JO in the low post. He had his shot blocked several times, he was getting frustrated, and overall he just wasn't a factor down there.

    The Jazz were very physical as they always are, and it took JO out of his comfort area, he then started rushing a few shots and he just didn't look very good. Even in the 4th quarter (JO played the first probably 7 minutes of the 4th) when he was defended by second stringers, JO still had a lot of trouble. If it weren't for AL the Pacers offense would have looked beyond horrible.

    I just looked at the box score and JO was 4 of 8 which isn't bad at all, maybe I was just in a bad mood last night.

  23. #48
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Its obvious that Saras's ballhandling is not good at all. However, if he is an asset on the offensive end as a leader, passer and occasionally a shooter, I would say a good coach can do stuff that would at least to some extent hide Saras's poor ballhandling.
    For example when he is bringing the ball upcourt, it is possible to have a big guy set him a pick somewhere around the middle of the court. Now i tell you that when a defender hits that screen hard, he will watch out for it the next time and not put as much pressure on the ball as earlier. I don't know about the NBA, but at least this type of "assistance" is often used in Éurope.

  24. #49
    AirLithuania
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Besides Seed had a very good point about how Saras thrives in a passing-game. In the end I actually believe that the Pacers would benefit from this type of offence. As far as I remember the great Pacers teams in late 1990s with Reggie, Marc, Smits etc. played more like a team (less 1-on-1s etc.) than last years Pacers.

  25. #50
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: You aren't going to want to hear what I have to say, my thoughts on game 2

    Uncle Buck.

    While I appreciate your posting about the backcourt & all I need something else as well.

    How did Shawne Williams look? When I saw him in game 1 I was very pleased because he has been talked down so much & I thought he was farther along than they were saying.

    Also how did Josh Powell do? I know box score doesn't show either doing well but we both know that box scores are usually only good for fantasy basketball.

    Other than one box score stat that does bother me. We were beyond horrible at rebounding.

    BTW, although I hate Boozer for what he did to Cleveland, I have always thought he had a good solid game & he always outplayed J.O. becasue he is just a physical player.


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