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Thread: A simple question

  1. #51
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    2. Now having said that I think it's unfair to judge fans based on how often you attend games. I know your not intentionally doing it, but you go to a lot of games & as far as I know you go by yourself. So you are not paying for a family of 3 or more to go to a game. It's hard to blame someone for not wanting to spend that kind of money on a team that doesn't represent what they want to see on the floor.

    I think I'm very careful not to judge fans on how often they go to games. I'm just going to say it, many of you who post in here don't go to many games because of the money and or other family or work commitments, and I would never question your fandom (as I've tried to make clear). For example I don't buy a lot of Pacers gear, in fact I've probably spent less than $80 in my lifetime on jerseys, T-Shirts, Sweatshirts, I just don't really care that much about wearing Pacers gear, some could argue that makes me less of a fan, well no it doesn't obviously. Many of you spend a lot more on Pacers gear than I do.

    There are many people in this forum who are probably bigger fans than I am who go to one game per year.

    None of that is the point I'm trying to make.

    What I'm saying is probably 90% of those people who are calling the radio talk shows to criticize the Pacers and say they will never go to a Pacers game again, rarely if ever went to games in the first place. I know that to be true about the 15-20 people who I've spoken with personally, they aren't die-hard Pacers fans, they aren't casual Pacers fans, in some cases they hate the Pacers. They don't like the Pacers at all, but they are using this incident to criticize the Pacers because it is politically correct right now.

    I'm not a Nascar, or Indy Racing league fan, I just don't like it, I know it's good for the city and I want those events to stay here even though I don't go. But if some big story broke about how how the most popular drivers are criminals and on drugs or whatever, and then I call the local radio shows, e-mail the Star, e-mail the local sports guys and said this is horrible I'm never going to another racing event in my life. And those media people go on the air and say they are getting thousands of E-mails from racing fans and they are very upset, that would be false because I'm not a racing fan. That leaves the false impression that die-hard fans are leaving in droves. I just think non-Pacers fans who are being critical of the Pacers are misrepresenting themselves as an excuse to be critical and the media is buying it.

    Peck, and everyone else, please don't misinterpret what I'm saying, I know Pacers fans aren't happy and rightfully so

  2. #52
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section19 View Post
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    At some point in time it becomes "shame on us" for continuing to support them when they have not proven they are trying to get better. They're telling us what we want to hear so that we keep paying them, but they don't back it up with actions.
    This is a topic for another thread, but you really don't believe they aren't trying to get better? Maybe I'm taking your comments out of context.

    Jay - just for the record, you deserve an award for still going to as many games as you do while living in Chicago (yes I know you have family here) That is a horrible drive though. Fighting through Chicago traffic.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: A simple question

    They haven't proven it because they haven't played any games.

    Talk is cheap. I want to see an improved product on the court and I'm not measuring improvement in W's and L's. Just as you've been calling it a two-year process, I'm expecting this team to still be well below 0.500 at the all-star break. I'm looking for a commitment to playing a better brand of team basketball.

    Lastly, "Al plus ten new backups/role players that will barely make the roster and rarely play" is not the same thing as overhauling the roster.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  4. #54
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think I'm very careful not to judge fans on how often they go to games. I'm just going to say it, many of you who post in here don't go to many games because of the money and or other family or work commitments,
    Absolutely UB.

    The Mrs. and I had season tickets in the 80s because we didn't have kids and could afford it (disposable income).

    In the 90s we could still afford the tickets, however at that time the boys were big enough to play for their school teams and that frankly became more important. We still went to several games, but there was a cutback.

    So starting in the last 5 years paying for two college educations has taken away any extra cash we could have spent on the Ps.

    The die hards are still going to go. Life's cycle will change the direction for many. As others have pointed out it's the casual fans and probably corporates that these events will affect the most in deciding to go.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  5. #55
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by jjbjjbjjb View Post
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    If Eddie Gill was the starting PG and the team won 35 games, the NBA would...still be better than the Euroleague?


    Rick gets his 2nd COY win too probably.



    What part of Season ticket holder since the telethon do you people not understand?
    Geezer, I understand it fine, and if they lost him then its a true loss. But the cold hard facts tell us that he's not the norm. If he were then I would never have come close to seeing Dale's first game (and a big victory by the Pacers no less), except from the rafters.

    Hey, I've NEVER had seasons tix, never could afford them. I do spend a lot on games as I cherry pick a few and buy really good singles at face. More than a regular person, but not 82 (41 pairs) at $170 each. More like 10-12, which is still a chunk of change at that price. But I'm not the guy that kept the team singularly afloat....of course I don't write them off to a business and the money I spend is more than I spend on any other single source of entertainment in a year, but still.

    Take a client, business expense.



    And while we are on it, having sat with those ticket holders I can tell you that drunk is the norm, not the exception. In fact I believe we all know the person with the NICEST SEATS IN CONSECO...floor, front row, center court. Now who did the 5 time divorcee marry? Oh yeah, the stripper he met at his son's bachelor party.

    Ride on Indiana puritans, ride on. I love watching them parade in with their cocktails in hand shmoozing with each other and cutting out early after coming in late.

    Even better are the 4 drunks in row 3 using the law firm's tickets who are screaming out insults to whatever player they can target by the mid-2nd quarter. "Hey, I'M the show and I...er, someone...paid good money for my right to tell Jason Kidd to go back to beating his wife."

    That's what I want to hear, some Foster Brooks double telling me how he's had enough and won't be back cause he has to take a stand. Good news for Club Rio, guess where his season ticket money will be going instead...can you break a $50 please?

  6. #56
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    In the 90s we could still afford the tickets, however at that time the boys were big enough to play for their school teams
    I had never missed a playoff game since the DET series, and went to several regular season games too (on the cheap) UNTIL the little league team I was coaching (I didn't even have a kid on the team) had games on the same night. Turned out to be the first year the team won a playoff series and it turned out that every home night I had to coach.

    It sucked, but it was worth it. I liked "my" team even more than the Pacers. I definitely understand those kinds of priority choices.

    BTW, I never could catch a break on game overlaps till game 5 vs ATL in 96...freaking fracking sumbee. Talk about crap luck.



    Jay, I will say that I agree that much of the product going on the court at the end of last season was ugly, and that wasn't because they lost. That Nets team was one they could have beaten if they just kept it together. Of course no Peja didn't exactly help, and that was when I really started wanting them to let him go. I will say that JO finished the season with his best ball and obviously AJ made the most of his always favorable Kidd matchup, but otherwise the team looked more like a disrupted team than at any point in the last 2 years (except right after the brawl).

    I do get mad at the PRODUCT, just like you. I expect to see good movement and team structure more than individual effort. Club Rio doesn't impact that. Having a team together without major injuries and not having a player going on local TV to tell the GM he wants off the roster because his 15-16 FGAs just aren't enough (ie, he wanted more money) should go a long way to improving the product.

    Rick has made something out of unimpressive rosters before, and this one actually has some talent. What they need is consistancy in terms of who is available to play on a nightly basis.

  7. #57
    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
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    Default Class, Sportsmanship, Effort

    Sigh.
    My Pacers, the ones I've watched and supported since 1967, have put me in a crappy mood. The old crusty drafty Coliseum, MSA with curtains drawn across the empty seats, no, none of that compares to the crap they've been throwing at us now for two years.

    Is it not my right as a fan to feel betrayed, annoyed, disappointed? I must blindly support my team no matter what? Class, Sportsmanship, and Effort are all I ever ask. I notice when some of you talk about wins bringing back the fans you also mention Jax2 cleaning up his act, no more bonehead PRs, play entertaining ball, etc. That's more than just winning. That's also Class, Sportsmanship, and Effort. If your team embarrasses you, it doesn't matter how many games they win.

    Will just winning a lot of games pull the fans back in? Sure, but not all. I'm obviously a fan without regard to wins and losses. Winning WILL NOT pull me back in, but the intangibles will. That's how I want my team to behave, not like knucklehead warriors. I want them to play the right way, proud, with their heads up, but not up their a$$es.

    RIGHT NOW, THEY OWE ME. I haven't abandoned them, but their debt won't be paid until they can demonstrate Class, Sportsmanship, and Effort.
    Don't thank me, I'll kill ya.

  8. #58
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

    OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

    I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.

    I said I wouldn't go to any games as long as certain players were on the roster. And I've been a Pacer fan since I can remember (die-hard though only since '93).

    Honestly, last year was the toughest and most disappointing year I can remember, moreso than '96-'97 and '95-'96. And I'm still here.

    Maybe some people were waiting for a chance to slam the Pacers, but I never wanted that chance. That's the whole point. Either way, whether warranted or not, "fans" have more than enough reasons to not support this team if they don't want to.

    I'll still support the team. I still plan on watching every game. But I feel like I have to draw the line somewhere. I'm probably overreacting, but right now I feel there's no way I shoud reinforce management's/player's repeated bad decisions/betrayals with my money.

  9. #59
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    "IF they win some games, the crowd will come back."

    "IF they stay clear of incidents, the crowd will come back."


    I keep hearing this, but many of us believe they will not win a lot of games for the same they keep having incidents. Bad choices, bad judgment, bad character.

  10. #60
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    I have to tell you, I am quite impressed with this thread. It may the first time I've ever really seen actual "definition" of a fan and not just "well, you aren't a fan". Many of the views reflected here are one's I subscribe to - others not so much. But there is a very clear perception of a fan and I believe most of it on the same page.

    I'm probably not as equipped to express my definition as well as most on here (impressive writers ) but I will say this. As someone who has "been with the team" since it's inception, this is not the product nor players I want to see. Laugh if you want about being an old-timer or whatever, but there is a right way and wrong way to do things. We haven't been doing it the right way.

    A very quick story about being a fan over here. I have Pacer gear with me - hats, t-shirts, etc. I even have a Jackson jersey. I will still wear everything with the exception of the jersey. It will never see the light of the Iraqi sun. I bought Slingbox specifically so I could watch the Pacer games on my computer over here when I can get a good feed. If that isn't being a fan I don't know what is.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  11. #61
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    We all have seen, heard, and read "fans" say that because of the "incident" they will no longer go to any Pacers games, and they no longer will support the Pacers.

    OK, here is my question. Were those "fans" who are saying that, did they ever go to games, did they ever watch the Pacers, did they ever support the Pacers except maybe when the Pacers get to the ECF?

    I say, no they weren't. They are just looking for the opportunity to slam the Pacers, they certainly weren't die-hard fans to begin with and they are using the incident as an excuse to bash the Pacers.
    Uh, you're wrong.

    I'll post what I just sent to the business office.

    "I will no longer support this team as long as Stephen Jackson is a member. Did you learn NOTHING from Ron Artest?????
    I usually attend between 5-10 games per and hoped to up that as I viewed this team as exciting in it's development. That will not happen now
    Good luck to you. Nothing like a business bleeding supporters."

  12. #62
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    Default Re: A simple question

    This was a really good read. Lots of interesting thoughts and points.

  13. #63
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan View Post
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    Uh, you're wrong.

    I'll post what I just sent to the business office.

    "I will no longer support this team as long as Stephen Jackson is a member. Did you learn NOTHING from Ron Artest?????
    I usually attend between 5-10 games per and hoped to up that as I viewed this team as exciting in it's development. That will not happen now
    Good luck to you. Nothing like a business bleeding supporters."
    How can I be wrong, I'm presenting a theory to create discussion, I never have claimed my theory was 100% accurate.

  14. #64

    Default Re: A simple question

    Maybe I'm not a serious fan. But the reason I'm not supporting this team with a whole heart has nothing to do with winning or losing. I can stand a whole lot of losing. But bad player conduct is something else.

    Look at it this way. I often order fettucini alfredo at restaurants. I've ordered it for $5 at Fazoli's and I've ordered it for a heckuva lot more in Vienna. But regardless of the quality of the portion, if someone spits in my plate I won't eat it. Does that make me a non-fan of Italian food? Or does it just mean I have a standard?

    People should be allowed to set their own standards. In a loose, libertine and relativist society, it is wrong for one person to impose his standards on others. OK, I accept that. Dope and guns and whoring at 3am are simply matters of choice with no moral implications.

    But each person ought to be allowed to have his own standards and not be criticized for them, so long as he sticks by them and applies them fairly.

    There are just too many things about the Indiana Pacers that violate my standards. I just don't want to have to "not care" about so many things that I really do care about.

    Each person needs to show some integrity. If you make a pledge, you need to follow through on it. Anyone who said, as I did, "If those Pacers don't clean up their act..." at any point over the past two years needs to face the fact that they haven't cleaned up. Larry Bird keeps retrenching and drawing a new line in the sand, but that doesn't mean everyone has to.

    Uncle Buck's premise is that real fans are those who have season tickets and have kept them for years and will continue to keep them no matter what. I don't meet that test. I've not had season tickets since the 83-84 season. That was the wonderful first year the Simons owned. But after that season, I went overseas and spent most of the intervening years either in Central Asia, West Africa or Washington DC. I was back here from 91 to 97, and I attended 5-10 games each of those years. The only time I had tickets for a playoff game was for game 3 of the Knicks series in 94. I got appendicitis the day before and watched the game from a hospital bed. (Take that, Ewing!)

    I'll never like any other basketball team. But there are nobler things to do than spend money on these guys.

    Please don't anyone flame me. I'm not criticizing -- just expressing a minority viewpoint.


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  15. #65
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Kevin lee just said on the pacers postgame call in show basically the exact same thing I said in this thread

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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Kevin lee just said on the pacers postgame call in show basically the exact same thing I said in this thread
    If what you are saying is true then the Pacers should see very little change in avg attendance!

  17. #67
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: A simple question

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Kevin lee just said on the pacers postgame call in show basically the exact same thing I said in this thread
    Please elaborate.

    Naptown Seth......you are soooo wrong about my friend. His "client" is a grandchild he is raising without benefit of wife or childs parents. He has taken on the task of raising him/her alone....for the last 20 years. And due to a medical condition he neither drinks nor smokes. So save your stereotyping for someone else. And I'm not making this up.

    I wsa shocked by his response tho....if Jax and Tins are gone from team then yes, he WILL renew his Tix.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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