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Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

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  • #16
    Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

    Originally posted by vapacersfan View Post
    There are a lot of posible charges, attempted murder will not be one of them
    Why not? It appeared to be intentional and it's on videotape, with witnesses.

    I think a moving car qualifies as a deadly weapon, no?

    Seriously, please explain. Why not?

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

      In order for it to be attempted murder, you'd have to prove that he wanted to kill him, which would be next to impossible.

      Intent is a VERY tricky thing to prove.
      Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

        Here's an excerpt from a legal case regarding the difference between murder and manslaughter. I am no lawyer, and anyone who is should speak up and speak with authority.

        But it looks to me that Since86 is right. There was "sudden heat" which would eliminate the possibility of attempted murder.

        Originally posted by Watts v. Indiana

        (b) ‘The existence of sudden heat is a mitigating factor that reduces
        what otherwise would be Murder to Voluntary Manslaughter.’
        http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions...0definition%22
        And I won't be here to see the day
        It all dries up and blows away
        I'd hang around just to see
        But they never had much use for me
        In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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        • #19
          Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

          So these dudes are brothers eh? I don't know if I'd ever go to a strip club with my brother (not that I would without him but, for argument's sake) - that just strikes me as weird (personally). I also thought they'd be older, say, mid-30's or 40's...I wondered if race had anything to do with it - that is, a white fan versus a black athlete (of course this wouldn't be a simple diagnosis if it proves to be the case, but its a point of interest nonetheless), but they didn't release the ethnicity of the brothers so it is hard to determine at this point.

          I wonder if they're fans of the Pacers, or NBA basketball for that matter, or not...because if they are, this is just another case of fan/player interaction that has hurt the Pacers. Player gets wronged by fan, overreacts (if indeed Jax overreacted is debateable).

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

            Originally posted by Since86 View Post
            In order for it to be attempted murder, you'd have to prove that he wanted to kill him, which would be next to impossible.

            Intent is a VERY tricky thing to prove.
            Rabid, this is why.

            Now you would have to consult with a lawyer to see if they could get him with attempted manslaughter or something along those lines, but attempted murder is a stretch, and a big one at that

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

              Originally posted by Putnam View Post
              Here's an excerpt from a legal case regarding the difference between murder and manslaughter. I am no lawyer, and anyone who is should speak up and speak with authority.

              But it looks to me that Since86 is right. There was "sudden heat" which would eliminate the possibility of attempted murder.



              http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions...0definition%22



              I am not a lawyer, but I did play one on TV!

              On a more serious note, I am not a lawyer but I am studying law(god help us all! haha)

              What Since said is correct, at least from what I have learned.

              Now if Indiana has any state specific laws, that I could not answer. I can say, though, that any murder or attempted murder charge would be a reach.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                Originally posted by vapacersfan View Post
                I am not a lawyer, but I did play one on TV!

                On a more serious note, I am not a lawyer but I am studying law(god help us all! haha)

                What Since said is correct, at least from what I have learned.

                Now if Indiana has any state specific laws, that I could not answer. I can say, though, that any murder or attempted murder charge would be a reach.
                You got it. In order to prove murder, you need to prove intent (They meant to commit the murder, i.e., thought out how to do it). The fact that the guy acted in the heat of the moment, apparently, makes intent very hard to prove, short of a confession.

                In order to prove an "attempt" with any charge (attempt murder, attempt burglary, etc.), you have to be able to prove the person took a substantial step towards committing the crime.

                Neither manslaughter (attempt) or attempt murder is going to fly. At all. Odds are they/he will get charged with Criminal Recklessness with a Vehicle, a D felony. Easily proven in this case.
                Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

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                • #23
                  Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                  Does anyone know why Tinsley and Danials´ cars were searched?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                    Originally posted by cariocapacer View Post
                    Does anyone know why Tinsley and Danials´ cars were searched?
                    Good point. Since we got the lawyers out, what's up with that?
                    2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                      Originally posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
                      You got it. In order to prove murder, you need to prove intent (They meant to commit the murder, i.e., thought out how to do it). The fact that the guy acted in the heat of the moment, apparently, makes intent very hard to prove, short of a confession.

                      In order to prove an "attempt" with any charge (attempt murder, attempt burglary, etc.), you have to be able to prove the person took a substantial step towards committing the crime.

                      Neither manslaughter (attempt) or attempt murder is going to fly. At all. Odds are they/he will get charged with Criminal Recklessness with a Vehicle, a D felony. Easily proven in this case.
                      Didn't mean to provoke a big discussion on this, but a couple points I want to make:

                      - As far as I know, there is no such thing as "attempted" manslaughter. The whole point of manslaughter as a crime is that it doesn't involve intent.
                      - I'm no lawyer either, but I think "intent" can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt using evidence other than confessions etc. For example, if the tape shows Jax in the path of the car, and then this guy accelerated without turning, it'd be pretty easy to prove intent to do harm, and a speeding car can be considered just as deadly of a "weapon" as a gun. Also, we don't know what sorts of comments might have been made immediately before or during this part of the incident.
                      - At the very least, "assault with a deadly weapon" or SOMETHING should be in order. It wasn't just a hit-and-run; he hit Jax ON PURPOSE. It was intentional.


                      EDIT: It just seems to me that if you intentionally try to run somebody over with a car that you should be charged with something more severe than "criminal recklessness, leaving the scene of a personal injury accident, and a misdemeanor count of driving without a license." Am I missing something here? No assault charge? Seems kinda weird.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                        Originally posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
                        So these dudes are brothers eh? I don't know if I'd ever go to a strip club with my brother (not that I would without him but, for argument's sake) - that just strikes me as weird (personally). I also thought they'd be older, say, mid-30's or 40's...I wondered if race had anything to do with it - that is, a white fan versus a black athlete (of course this wouldn't be a simple diagnosis if it proves to be the case, but its a point of interest nonetheless), but they didn't release the ethnicity of the brothers so it is hard to determine at this point.

                        I wonder if they're fans of the Pacers, or NBA basketball for that matter, or not...because if they are, this is just another case of fan/player interaction that has hurt the Pacers. Player gets wronged by fan, overreacts (if indeed Jax overreacted is debateable).
                        Yeah the first thing that popped in to my mind when I heard about "Dino" and "Fingers" was two old white guys...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                          Originally posted by bulldog View Post
                          Good point. Since we got the lawyers out, what's up with that?
                          I was not sure of this, but another member brought up the point yesterday and I tend to think they are probably correct.

                          While the police were investigating the crime scene, they are forced to search all parties who have weapons on them (mostly just to make sure they have permits, the guns are not stolen,all that good stuff..) All reports are Tinsley had a handgun in his car, so that would explain why his car was searched.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                            Originally posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
                            Didn't mean to provoke a big discussion on this, but a couple points I want to make:

                            - As far as I know, there is no such thing as "attempted" manslaughter. The whole point of manslaughter as a crime is that it doesn't involve intent.
                            - I'm no lawyer either, but I think "intent" can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt using evidence other than confessions etc. For example, if the tape shows Jax in the path of the car, and then this guy accelerated without turning, it'd be pretty easy to prove intent to do harm, and a speeding car can be considered just as deadly of a "weapon" as a gun. Also, we don't know what sorts of comments might have been made immediately before or during this part of the incident.
                            - At the very least, "assault with a deadly weapon" or SOMETHING should be in order. It wasn't just a hit-and-run; he hit Jax ON PURPOSE. It was intentional.


                            EDIT: It just seems to me that if you intentionally try to run somebody over with a car that you should be charged with something more severe than "criminal recklessness, leaving the scene of a personal injury accident, and a misdemeanor count of driving without a license." Am I missing something here? No assault charge? Seems kinda weird.
                            There is a such thing as "attempted manslaughter

                            You are correct about your second statement, but once again you are reaching. As you said, we dont know what was said, and the defendant could claim Jackson made some comment about assulting him, or somethign along those lines, and without a confession from either side it is hard to prove one way or the other. In that case it turns into a "he said vs she said". Intent is very hard to prove, and I would be willing to bet a paycheck the guy does not get his with manslaughter. Jackson, fair or not, has a repuation has a hothead, so if this guy claimed Jackson egged him on then that would not be so hard to beleive. In that case, once again the intent changes. I just dont see him getting hit wiht manslaughter


                            I have no clue what Indiana laws are, but I could see where you would get the assult with a deadly weapon.


                            I cant asnwer the last question for you. I would think they could easily get him with battery and as you said earlier assult with a deadly weapon (the car), but maybe I am missing something.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                              Originally posted by vapacersfan View Post
                              There is a such thing as "attempted manslaughter

                              You are correct about your second statement, but once again you are reaching. As you said, we dont know what was said, and the defendant could claim Jackson made some comment about assulting him, or somethign along those lines, and without a confession from either side it is hard to prove one way or the other. In that case it turns into a "he said vs she said". Intent is very hard to prove, and I would be willing to bet a paycheck the guy does not get his with manslaughter. Jackson, fair or not, has a repuation has a hothead, so if this guy claimed Jackson egged him on then that would not be so hard to beleive. In that case, once again the intent changes. I just dont see him getting hit wiht manslaughter


                              I have no clue what Indiana laws are, but I could see where you would get the assult with a deadly weapon.


                              I cant asnwer the last question for you. I would think they could easily get him with batter and as you said earlier assult with a deadly weapon (the car), but maybe I am missing something.
                              Thanks VA. All I'm saying really is that it seems like there should be one or two more severe charges added to that list. JMHO.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: Suspect arrested in run-in with Pacers at strip club

                                This is the first time I've been tempted to run a criminal history check on someone. Fortunately for me, I like my job.

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