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Thread: How will the Republicans spin this?

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    Default How will the Republicans spin this?

    The race in the 8th district is getting pretty crazy between the incumbent John Hostettler (R) and the challenger Brad Ellsworth (D).

    They have been trying to paint Ellsworth as a liberal and failed. Now there attack ads have gone the other way. They say the election is not about what kind of candidate Ellsworth is, but rather what kind of candidates Hill Clinton and N.Polosi are? Because a vote for Ellsworth is the same as voting for liberal democrats.

    Politics truly is a dirty game. No wonder many Americans are just fed up with them all.


    Waiting to see how the spin machine somehow attacks the Ellsworth pledge.


    http://www.wthitv.com/dsp_story.cfm?storyid=52448

    Ellsworth Pledge

    National debt these days is $8.4 trillion. Vanderburgh County Sheriff Brad Ellsworth says it increases over $1.5 billion per day. With the national debt growing, congressional salaries have increased too! The increase in pay is something Ellsworth is willing to forego and donate if elected.

    "I wanna pledge today that I will vote to block any pay raise for the United States Congress until such a time that the budget is balanced," said Brad Ellsworth, (D) Congressional Candidate.

    Ellsworth went on to say if elected and still can't prevent a pay raise, he pledges to donate any pay raise Congress may receive to a deserving charity in the 8th district.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    I think donating it to charity is the best option.

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    RWB, politics is a dirty game. But the truth is, Ellsworth is running in that (fairly conservative) district not as a liberal, but as a conservative. Thus he has ads I have seen which proclaim that he is pro-life, pro-second amendment and a fiscal conservative. That is fine, he might be every conservative's favorite Democrat based on his views, but it is also true that if he is elected he will be the odd man out in his own party on some very critical issues. Do 8th district voters want to send a guy to Washington who is so out of step with the overwhelming consensus of his own party on such issues?

    Like it or not, it is a fair question for 8th district voters who are conservative to ask the question suggested by those ads: why should we vote for Ellsworth when Hostettler votes the same way, but if I vote for Ellsworth I might also get Pelosi and Conyers and an extremely liberal congress? The 8th district liberals are going Ellsworth's way no matter what, but it is the conservative voter he is trying to pick up. What is wrong with pointing out that, if you want conservative policies nationally, you are taking a huge risk in voting Ellsworth over Hostettler? That part of it isn't dirty politics at all, it is a common sense way of pointing out to people who like but might not love Hostettler that there might be other things at stake too.

    Incidentally, the Dems make such arguments too, and worse -- what was your view of them substituting Lautenberg for the corrupt Torricelli as the Dem senate candidate in NJ a few weeks before the election a few years back, but only after Torricelli's late-exposed corruption resulted in the Republican candidate overtaking him in the polls? Why is that sort of thing -- a naked power grab, illegal under NJ election law, but blessed by a Dem-controlled NJ Supreme Court -- okay for Dems interested in majority control of the Senate, but pointing out not crimes but ideological differences is somehow wrong in a House race in Indiana? I can come up with additional examples if you wish.

    Nor would it be unfair or dirty politics for someone to ask Ellsworth the question the media is giving him a pass on, "if you believe in these things, how can you call yourself a Democrat rather than a Republican?"

    Now, I know there are some Democrats who are pro-life, and I am not suggesting otherwise, but I suspect even they would agree that their party is overwhelmingly in opposition to their views on that topic.

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bat Boy View Post
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    Nor would it be unfair or dirty politics for someone to ask Ellsworth the question the media is giving him a pass on, "if you believe in these things, how can you call yourself a Democrat rather than a Republican?"

    Now, I know there are some Democrats who are pro-life, and I am not suggesting otherwise, but I suspect even they would agree that their party is overwhelmingly in opposition to their views on that topic.

    Bat, I have no problem with questions raised about any candidate. For me it becomes a problem when the truth is distorted and that goes for all parties.

    I also really hate that we have become a nation of labels. As you have pointed out the Democrats' platform is on the other side of the abortion issue. Once again because of scare tatics from both sides of the aisle the majority suffer. I have never met a Democrat who liked abortion. I have met a few who are dead set against any kind of control, but know many more who would like a compromise on time. Same as the gun issue with the label that all Republicans want zero restrictions and that everyone should have one. Yep, there are some who's rallying cry "pry it from my old dead cold hand" get the majority of ink, but once again there are more Republicans that do believe there should be some restrictions in Cop Killer bullets and a waiting period to do back ground checks.

    I hate how everything has to be an extreme for both sides. Both sides mess up, they make mistakes, save the *****ing for the important things. And I'm just a guilty, such as complaining about the 7 minute issue with the President in the other thread. On that same note other than a moral issue we didn't really need to know Bill Clinton got something on the side.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bat Boy View Post
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    RWB, politics is a dirty game. But the truth is, Ellsworth is running in that (fairly conservative) district not as a liberal, but as a conservative. Thus he has ads I have seen which proclaim that he is pro-life, pro-second amendment and a fiscal conservative. That is fine, he might be every conservative's favorite Democrat based on his views, but it is also true that if he is elected he will be the odd man out in his own party on some very critical issues. Do 8th district voters want to send a guy to Washington who is so out of step with the overwhelming consensus of his own party on such issues?

    Like it or not, it is a fair question for 8th district voters who are conservative to ask the question suggested by those ads: why should we vote for Ellsworth when Hostettler votes the same way, but if I vote for Ellsworth I might also get Pelosi and Conyers and an extremely liberal congress? The 8th district liberals are going Ellsworth's way no matter what, but it is the conservative voter he is trying to pick up. What is wrong with pointing out that, if you want conservative policies nationally, you are taking a huge risk in voting Ellsworth over Hostettler? That part of it isn't dirty politics at all, it is a common sense way of pointing out to people who like but might not love Hostettler that there might be other things at stake too.

    Incidentally, the Dems make such arguments too, and worse -- what was your view of them substituting Lautenberg for the corrupt Torricelli as the Dem senate candidate in NJ a few weeks before the election a few years back, but only after Torricelli's late-exposed corruption resulted in the Republican candidate overtaking him in the polls? Why is that sort of thing -- a naked power grab, illegal under NJ election law, but blessed by a Dem-controlled NJ Supreme Court -- okay for Dems interested in majority control of the Senate, but pointing out not crimes but ideological differences is somehow wrong in a House race in Indiana? I can come up with additional examples if you wish.

    Nor would it be unfair or dirty politics for someone to ask Ellsworth the question the media is giving him a pass on, "if you believe in these things, how can you call yourself a Democrat rather than a Republican?"

    Now, I know there are some Democrats who are pro-life, and I am not suggesting otherwise, but I suspect even they would agree that their party is overwhelmingly in opposition to their views on that topic.
    Ahh yes, because we wouldn't want someone thinking they could get elected using a platform that pulls the best elements from both parties, leave all that partisan extremism behind, and in the process represent the core ideals of the majority of Americans now would we?

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Ahh yes, because we wouldn't someone thinking they could get elected using a platform that pulls the best elements from both parties, leave all that partisan extremism behind, and in the process represent the core ideals of the majority of Americans now would we?

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    In California the ad against Arnold I see the most is one highlighting his speech in Ohio where he campaigned for Bush. As if supporting the canidate in his party made him unfit for office.

    It isn't a dem or rep thing. It is unfortunately an American thing.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by RWB View Post
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    Bat, I have no problem with questions raised about any candidate. For me it becomes a problem when the truth is distorted and that goes for all parties.

    I also really hate that we have become a nation of labels. As you have pointed out the Democrats' platform is on the other side of the abortion issue. Once again because of scare tatics from both sides of the aisle the majority suffer. I have never met a Democrat who liked abortion. I have met a few who are dead set against any kind of control, but know many more who would like a compromise on time. Same as the gun issue with the label that all Republicans want zero restrictions and that everyone should have one. Yep, there are some who's rallying cry "pry it from my old dead cold hand" get the majority of ink, but once again there are more Republicans that do believe there should be some restrictions in Cop Killer bullets and a waiting period to do back ground checks.

    I hate how everything has to be an extreme for both sides. Both sides mess up, they make mistakes, save the *****ing for the important things. And I'm just a guilty, such as complaining about the 7 minute issue with the President in the other thread. On that same note other than a moral issue we didn't really need to know Bill Clinton got something on the side.
    Good points, RWB. I especially agree that, for better or worse, we have become a nation that deals in labels (or in shorthand summarizing of people's beliefs, as if their beliefs are bumper sticker slogans). Alas, the reason that this has occurred is that, even though not 100% accurate, there is nonetheless a great deal of truth in the technique.

    If you are an ambitious young Democrat who wants to run for political office as a Democrat, your chances of getting your party's support are significantly diminished if you do not toe the party's platform on every major issue. In this example, it means that if you do not support abortion rights, or some other controversial issue, you eventually will find yourself unwelcome in your party. At least on the topic of abortion -- recall that Governor Casey of PA, an anti-abortion Dem, was forbidden from speaking at the 1988 National Convention. (The Republicans do the same thing -- liberal Republicans are generally not showcased before conservative audiences on gay rights, pro-abortion and similar positions).

    That is really the point of the Ellsworth ads. If he really is a conservative on those major issues, which is exactly what he is claiming to the fairly conservative electorate, what is he doing running as a Democrat in this day and time, where these very contentious issues are virtually articles of faith. I'm struggling putting my thoughts on this one into print, but I think they include this: I am distrustful of Ellsworth, and of his invoking and wrapping himself in traditionally conservative issues, yet running as a Democrat. If he truly believes what he says, then he is out of step with over 90% of his party. Maybe he truly is a conservative Democrat, but maybe he is truly a liberal who is seeking to defeat a Republican, Hostettler, who is regarded as very weak and a good target for a Democrat who can pick off some of his conservative base. If that is what he is doing, then he is being dishonest about his intentions, and it is certainly fair game to look beyond him to Pelosi, et al in the House leadership.

    Again, the same phenomenon holds for Republicans who buck their party's platform on any number of contentious issues, but I return to the earlier point: labelling is often used because it contains a great deal of truth, and is an effective shorthand in political campaigns.

    You wrote an intriguing statement: "I never met a Democrat who liked abortion." I don't quite know what you mean. Do you mean that everyone, including Democrats, finds the procedure distasteful, perhaps sees it only as a necessary evil but do not literally "like" it? Or do you mean that you never met a Democrat who supports abortion rights? If it is the former, which I suspect you meant, my question is "how does that matter?" If the Democrats ardently support and campaign for and raise money for and render unqualified support for a procedure that, they profess they don't "like," how is that supposed to move me? How does that fact persuade me that I should support them?

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Ahh yes, because we wouldn't want someone thinking they could get elected using a platform that pulls the best elements from both parties, leave all that partisan extremism behind, and in the process represent the core ideals of the majority of Americans now would we?
    C'mon TM. You can do better than this. "The best elements from both parties?" What does that mean? The parties disagree for serious and profound reasons. You seem to want to believe that there is a magical middle ground of issues, where the "core ideals" of the majority of Americans lay. Name one contentious, "partisan extreme" issue that you contend is suitable for your sanctified middle of the road. I don't see it.

    We were talking about abortion rights, and Ellsworth claiming he is pro life. Take that example, and tell us where abortion fits in either party's platform, and how you can frame that issue so that it "pulls the best elements from both parties?" It cannot be done for that issue, as it cannot be done for a lot of issues. Ideas are serious things and arguments must be persuasive to succeed. Show me a politician who simply wants to compromise on great moral issues, and I'll show you a politician I will not vote for. Don't take abortion, take something less contentious -- tax policy, social spending, military defense, keep going. These too, sooner or later, are great moral issues.

    I am not saying there cannot be compromise. Our system is built on compromise. I am saying that there is not -- as you seem to suggest -- some special nobility in the luke warm middle. We can argue about and compromise on budgets, the scope of laws, etc., but we are not more noble for compromising, and we are not less noble for refusing to compromise on great moral issues.

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bat Boy View Post
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    C'mon TM. You can do better than this. "The best elements from both parties?" What does that mean? The parties disagree for serious and profound reasons. You seem to want to believe that there is a magical middle ground of issues, where the "core ideals" of the majority of Americans lay. Name one contentious, "partisan extreme" issue that you contend is suitable for your sanctified middle of the road. I don't see it.

    We were talking about abortion rights, and Ellsworth claiming he is pro life. Take that example, and tell us where abortion fits in either party's platform, and how you can frame that issue so that it "pulls the best elements from both parties?" It cannot be done for that issue, as it cannot be done for a lot of issues. Ideas are serious things and arguments must be persuasive to succeed. Show me a politician who simply wants to compromise on great moral issues, and I'll show you a politician I will not vote for. Don't take abortion, take something less contentious -- tax policy, social spending, military defense, keep going. These too, sooner or later, are great moral issues.

    I am not saying there cannot be compromise. Our system is built on compromise. I am saying that there is not -- as you seem to suggest -- some special nobility in the luke warm middle. We can argue about and compromise on budgets, the scope of laws, etc., but we are not more noble for compromising, and we are not less noble for refusing to compromise on great moral issues.
    Our "system" was built on compromise? What "system"? If you're referring to the two party "system", that's your system, not mine, and not America's. It's a convenient agreement between two fat cat establishments in order to maintain their dominance. It's also the natural evolution when there's no salary cap in place, just ask the Yankess and Nascar.

    Regardless, don't paint the two party system like it's in the constitution. There was a time when the Whigs were a very powerful political party

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
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    Our "system" was built on compromise? What "system"? If you're referring to the two party "system", that's your system, not mine, and not America's. It's a convenient agreement between two fat cat establishments in order to maintain their dominance. It's also the natural evolution when there's no salary cap in place, just ask the Yankess and Nascar.

    Regardless, don't paint the two party system like it's in the constitution. There was a time when the Whigs were a very powerful political party
    Try to keep up, Eindar. If our constitutional form of government (our "system") was not built on compromise, what exactly ere our Founding Fathers arguing about at the Constitutional Convention? What was the big deal whether the states would remain sovereign or there would be a centralized confederation? What were the Federalist Papers supposed to do? Convince a bunch of fat cats that they had no need for checks and balances? That there was no need for three branches of government? That there was no need for two houses, representing similar but different blocks of constituencies, in congress? Its simple: sharing power means compromising. That is our system, it was explicitly designed that way, and temporary domination by one political faction over another (say, the Democratic Party from the 30s to the 50s, or the Republican Party for much of the last decade) does not in any way suggest that there is no necessity for compromise -- you are confusing the point. The fact that there are different factions, represented by political parties, doesn't eliminate compromise as a necessary means of doing the peoples' business (whether you want to characterize them as fat cats or not).

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Bat, when you said it looked like Hostettler looked weak it appears you had a direct hit on that one.

    http://www.tribstar.com/local/local_...269230415.html


    Hostettler campaign dismisses ISU poll

    Campaign official notes other polls show slimmer margins in 8th District race

    By Austin Arceo
    The Tribune-Star

    TERRE HAUTE — A member of U.S. Rep. John Hostettler’s re-election campaign dismissed a poll conducted by Indiana State University that showed the Republican incumbent trailing his Democratic challenger by more than 15 points.

    The poll, commissioned by the Evansville Courier & Press newspaper, indicated that more than 47 percent of 602 registered voters polled within the 8th District preferred Democrat Brad Ellsworth, compared with a reported 31.8 percent for Hostettler.

    Stan Barringer, the Hostettler campaign’s research director, noted that the Courier & Press refused to release the questions asked to respondents when the poll was conducted between Sept. 6-21. He added that Hostettler’s campaign office has received calls from poll respondents concerned with the questions.

    “Well, it makes a big difference [in the poll’s viability] because the Courier is claiming this is not a ‘push’ poll, which is a method of polling that [asks] forceful, opinionated questions,” Barringer said, “but stories we’ve heard by people who were polled by Indiana State were that some of the questions were forceful.”

    But J. Bruce Baumann, editor for the Courier & Press, said that the Evansville newspaper did not release the questions because the newspaper is writing articles on people’s responses all week, and the newspaper did not want to “scoop themselves.”

    He added that the questions were relatively straightforward. In a question for the poll on people’s responses to terrorism as a political issue, Baumann said that respondents replied to the statement, “A candidate’s view on fighting terrorism at home is:” by choosing one of five answers that ranged from “very important” to “not at all important” as a reason to vote for Ellsworth or Hostettler. Fourteen people out of 602 said they didn’t know or refused to answer, which were not listed options to respondents.

    Baumann added that another statement poll respondents replied to was, “A candidate’s view on fighting terrorism abroad is:” with five choices ranging from “very important” to “not at all important.”

    “We’ve got nothing to hide here,” Baumann said. “We’re very concerned about what the voters are thinking about.”

    While Barringer questioned the methodologies of the ISU poll, he referenced two different polls — a WISH-TV Indiana poll and a poll conducted by Majority Watch — as more “viable” polls, since both polls have released “all the relevant information.” The polls indicated a much smaller lead for Ellsworth, who is Vanderburgh County sheriff.

    Barringer noted that, in both polls, Ellsworth’s lead was greater than the polls’ margin of error.

    Matt Weisman, the communications director for Ellsworth’s campaign, said that the campaign does not comment on polls.

    ISU political science professor James L. McDowell, who was not involved with the poll for the Courier & Press, noted that the margin between the two candidates is larger than expected, but many different things could happen before Election Day.

    “I think the margin is going to be much closer than the poll indicates,” McDowell said, “but I don’t have a firm grip yet on what’s likely to happen six weeks from now.”
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think donating it to charity is the best option.
    I would say the best option is no pay raise at all for Congress until a plan is in place to stop the accumulation of more annual debt.

    Accepting pay raises and then giving them to charity is a tried-and-true political ploy designed to protect individual members of a fiscally irresponsible Congress.

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bat Boy View Post
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    Try to keep up, Eindar. If our constitutional form of government (our "system") was not built on compromise, what exactly ere our Founding Fathers arguing about at the Constitutional Convention? What was the big deal whether the states would remain sovereign or there would be a centralized confederation? What were the Federalist Papers supposed to do? Convince a bunch of fat cats that they had no need for checks and balances? That there was no need for three branches of government? That there was no need for two houses, representing similar but different blocks of constituencies, in congress? Its simple: sharing power means compromising. That is our system, it was explicitly designed that way, and temporary domination by one political faction over another (say, the Democratic Party from the 30s to the 50s, or the Republican Party for much of the last decade) does not in any way suggest that there is no necessity for compromise -- you are confusing the point. The fact that there are different factions, represented by political parties, doesn't eliminate compromise as a necessary means of doing the peoples' business (whether you want to characterize them as fat cats or not).
    You could have stopped after the first 11 words, the first 5 of which were a personal attack.

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    Default Re: How will the Republicans spin this?

    Just an update poll by WHTI on the race in the 8th. Yes I know Terre Haute is a democrat town, but I still didn't expect this.

    http://www.wthitv.com/actvote.cfm

    QUESTION: Which candidate do you intend to vote for in the 8th Congressional District race in Indiana?

    876 total votes.

    ANSWERS:
    1. John Hostettler (R) 25.23 %
    2. Brad Ellsworth (D) 74.77 %
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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