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Thread: Does anybody even care about....

  1. #51
    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    He didn;t even play alot of point in college.
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by indytoad View Post
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    I think this is pretty accurate. I know I can't look at Williams without thinking "Bender 2.0."

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    I think of Derrick McKey 2.0. He has bigger wingspan than Granger.
    I believe he will be a solid contributor in his career.


    Oh and by the way the first pre-season game is about a month
    away and will be against NJ on FSMW.
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    I agree with Kegboy. Only I think Bird took Williams because he hopes that Carney rubbe doff on him just enought to make him a "steal".
    Regardless of what you think of Williams or Bird, let's be realistic in our view of why Larry drafted him.

    Some of you guys are making it sound like he didn't even know it was draft day and just called in his pick from the golf course.

    I think it's fair to assume that there was plenty of in-depth player analysis done by Bird on every player that was picked in the Top 20 (well...probably not Balkman). This is the NBA Draft, not your Yahoo Fantasy league where some guy picks Dominic Davis in the third round because he didn't hear about his knee injury.

    I have no idea whether Williams will be any good in the NBA or not. But the idea that Bird "panicked", or selected a guy with no understanding his "heart" issues is patently absurd.

    Clearly, Larry likes the guy's game and thinks he will be a good NBA player.
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I just have no doubts in my mind that Williams was the guy that Bird was lookin for the whole time. IDC if he turns out to be good or not.
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Do you have even a single piece of evidence that the other guy was Bird's man? Any at all?
    This is a prime example of what is fundamentally wrong with the Pacers: No one has a idea who is running things. Who's in charge of the draft? Who does the trades? If Larry is doing anything why is Donnie always the one who talks to the media?

    Here's an idea to throw out into the cosmos (so Hicks and Kegboy can argue some more). This pick was all Larry's doing and the Simons are so about it that they've relegated him to Timbuktu where he can't do any further damage.


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    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    This is a prime example of what is fundamentally wrong with the Pacers: No one has a idea who is running things. Who's in charge of the draft? Who does the trades? If Larry is doing anything why is Donnie always the one who talks to the media?

    Here's an idea to throw out into the cosmos (so Hicks and Kegboy can argue some more). This pick was all Larry's doing and the Simons are so about it that they've relegated him to Timbuktu where he can't do any further damage.

    IMO, it really doesn't matter if the fans (us) or the media know who's doing what in the front office. As long as the guys upstairs know what's going on, it's fine.

    As for the media thing, I believe Larry really loathes that part of the job. He's never been the outgoing type in public and I think Donnie has always been better suited for the spokesman role.
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    IMO, it really doesn't matter if the fans (us) or the media know who's doing what in the front office. As long as the guys upstairs know what's going on, it's fine.
    Do you think they know whats goin on??
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    IMO, it really doesn't matter if the fans (us) or the media know who's doing what in the front office.
    It does make for better internet fodder that way. Since we don't know what Larry's doing it give me free reign to blame him for EVERYTHING!

    As for the media thing, I believe Larry really loathes that part of the job. He's never been the outgoing type in public and I think Donnie has always been better suited for the spokesman role.
    Dealing with the media is part of the job and he better get over it now. Donnie isn't going to be here forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    Do you think they know whats goin on??
    No, I don't.

  9. #59
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    QTF, Jay, QFT!!

    Just to add, I think allowing a player to actually foul out is a better teacher than sitting him on the bench.

    Honestly, what more could Rick have done with the 3 rookies he has been given to work with up to this point as the head coach of the Pacers?......Oh I left out Saras as a rookie. Again, given ample opportunity.
    Oh, man, you are kidding, right? Saras was used as a SG. Even Bird said to the media that he didn't think Saras was being used properly. I agree.

    As to Harrison, I remember at a forum party before the season, quite a few folks thought Dh would be starting by mid-season and getting meaningful minutes, but Rick has gotten him playing scared. He's so afraid of drawing a foul that he does just that. The when he gets a few, he gets yanked, rather than learn how to deal with it.

    Rick tends to treat rookies the same way Larry Brown did, inconsistantly and with a low tolerance for letting them learn. Neither Rick nor Larry will give a committment to a rookie, like Jay said. He plugs them in for a few minutes, expects them to not screw up, then yanks them soon as they do, or like in the case of saras, plays them out of position. They tend to get solid PT only when injuries or suspensions force it.

    Sorry, nap, I gotta throw in with Jay and the others on this.
    Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    Just to add, I think allowing a player to actually foul out is a better teacher than sitting him on the bench.
    Agreed, especially like someone else said, when Rick has no intentions of bringing him back later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    Oh, man, you are kidding, right? Saras was used as a SG. Even Bird said to the media that he didn't think Saras was being used properly. I agree.
    Oh I wont argue that later in the year when he was moved to shooting guard was a bad move. But you also have to take into consideration the circumstances surrounding why that happened when it did.

    First was the injuries to Fred which depleted any real depth we had at the 2 position and the fact AJ was playing at a very high level. Rick was just trying to put his best players on the floor. It was an experiment that did not turn out well. It is obvious Saras is a completely different player when he has the ball in his hands compared to running off of picks and screens.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    As to Harrison, I remember at a forum party before the season, quite a few folks thought Dh would be starting by mid-season and getting meaningful minutes, but Rick has gotten him playing scared. He's so afraid of drawing a foul that he does just that. The when he gets a few, he gets yanked, rather than learn how to deal with it.
    Again I agree, Dave needs a chance to learn to play through the fouls. Just like in baseball a pitcher needs to learn to pitch through tough spots when he has been dinged for a couple runs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    Rick tends to treat rookies the same way Larry Brown did, inconsistantly and with a low tolerance for letting them learn. Neither Rick nor Larry will give a committment to a rookie, like Jay said. He plugs them in for a few minutes, expects them to not screw up, then yanks them soon as they do, or like in the case of saras, plays them out of position. They tend to get solid PT only when injuries or suspensions force it.
    This I dont agree with completely. Playing people out of position the last two years has been more out of necessity than choice. If there is any single word that surmises the last two years of what this team has gone through it is adversity.

    I also feel that Rick is not nearly as stringent as Larry with rooks. While still not as loose with them as I would like, he does give them more of an opportunity to earn minutes than I personally feel he is given credit for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
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    Sorry, nap, I gotta throw in with Jay and the others on this.
    No sorries needed, Skaut. I can appreciate anyones opinion when they present it with valid and intelligent arguments like you and Jay and few others on this forum do. Even if I do not necessarily agree with every aspect of that opinion.

  11. #61
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204 View Post
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    Right, Granger was on the fringes until Ron's trade demand forced Rick to play him.

    But even then, we all wanted Rick to play Danny at SF, and Rick tried Saras at SG and SJax at SF and expanded Fred's role.

    It wasn't until later - JO's injury, that forced Rick into playing Danny even more, and now at his second-best position (since Peja was then on board.)

    (His minutes did spike on the west coast trip but he was back down to 10, 10, and 9 mpg in late January). After the beginning of February, he played less than 19mpg only six times plus the flu game he missed.

    I think its safe to say circumstances forced Rick's hand, he wasn't going to voluntarily give Granger meaningful minutes otherwise.


    There were several points during the season where Rick said that Danny wasn't 'getting it' or his head wasn't 'in the game' or something similar. Rookies make rookie mistakes. Every coach hates that. Danny was better than most so he played more than most.
    To think it has to do with anything else is plain silly.

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I try not to think about Williams, let alone post about him, because the topic just pisses me off.

    1. We can't draft HS'ers anymore, so Larry drafted a kid one year removed.
    2. I was mad enough at the time when we left a half dozen quality points on the board. If I'd known we were gonna trade AJ for kibbles and bits, I might just have gone pyro on Conseco.
    3. What's our answer to the last two years? We draft a kid for whom the words "no heart" are in every single scouting report.
    4. I'm still convinced Larry's real target was Carney, and when we lost out on him, he picked his poor man's teammate, either cause he panicked or was just plain lazy. Or maybe he meant Marcus, and his cronies in the revamped scouting department were too timid to correct him.
    5. I still remember that Memphis-UCLA game. Worst college game I've seen in probably 10 years, and Williams was the worst player on the floor.
    6. The only chance the kid has is to go to the NBDL, but we don't have the balls to send him down.
    3) BS
    4) No way. Carney isn't going to be that good. Carney is 4 years older in maturity and physicality. Williams will be the better player. Everyone in Memphis knows that.
    5) He was a TRUE FRESHMAN for gods sake! They DO disappear sometimes.
    6) BS BS BS

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I don't see how anyone could possibly watch Memphis and say, "That Carney's okay, but look at that skinny kid over there! If he bulked up and worked on his shot and got his head in the game, he could really be something!" Yeah, he'd be Rodney Carney, just two inches taller.

    Uh huh, except these are PROFESSIONAL BASKETBALL scouts. They are able to see past that 12" view and realize that Carney was a senior and WIlliams was a freshman. (even a lot of fans can recognize that)

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by intridcold View Post
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    Shawne's defense will be his best assett earlier on in his career, because besides JO (I know Baston too) is the only shot blocker on this team.

    Danny and David are both very good shot blockers.

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Robertmto View Post
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    Do you think they know whats goin on??
    If Artest didn't go psycho this is one of the best teams in the NBA and very deep.
    They built that.
    Artest destroyed it, now they are rebuilding on the fly.
    Yeh, I think they know what they are doing.

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan View Post
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    If Artest didn't go psycho this is one of the best teams in the NBA and very deep.
    They built that.
    Artest destroyed it, now they are rebuilding on the fly.
    Yeh, I think they know what they are doing.
    well they sure work in mysterious ways
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I'd just like to point out that Granger's PT was, for a big chunk of the season, the result have not having Artest/Peja to play. And at the end of the season, a result of the fact that Peja wasn't a good guy to have on the floor at the end of a close game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I'd just like to point out that Granger's PT was, for a big chunk of the season, the result have not having Artest/Peja to play. And at the end of the season, a result of the fact that Peja wasn't a good guy to have on the floor at the end of a close game.
    So what you are saying is that Danny's ABILITY earned him the right to be on the floor and get minutes late in games over a 3 time all-star? Cool!!

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerMan View Post
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    Danny and David are both very good shot blockers.

    How can DH block shots if he consistently fouls out? Defensive postioning is the difference between blocking a shot and picking up the blocking foul.


    How intimidating is Granger as a shot blocker? Seriously? How did he pick up his blocks last year? How do you see him being an incredible shot blocker guarding the opposing teams best defender if in fact he is in the starting rotation.

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by intridcold View Post
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    How can DH block shots if he consistently fouls out? Defensive postioning is the difference between blocking a shot and picking up the blocking foul.


    How intimidating is Granger as a shot blocker? Seriously? How did he pick up his blocks last year? How do you see him being an incredible shot blocker guarding the opposing teams best defender if in fact he is in the starting rotation.
    I dont remember how last year, but I remember he had quite a few.

    I think one of the biggest things people underestimate is his defense....for such a young guy he is a very good defender.

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by intridcold View Post
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    How intimidating is Granger as a shot blocker? Seriously? How did he pick up his blocks last year? How do you see him being an incredible shot blocker guarding the opposing teams best defender if in fact he is in the starting rotation.
    I haven't seen that many games last year, but I can say this: I never saw it coming when Danny blocked someone. All of a sudden he just was there and denied an easy lay-up or a dunk.

    How did he pick up his blocks? I would say mostly as a help defender when someone tried to go to the basket. Isn't that how most outside players pick up their blocks? You'll rarely see a block in an outside one-on-one play, certainly not when you're guarding the opposing team's best offensive player (I guess that was what you meant).

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I am with everyone esle, there hasnt been hardly any talk about him. I know he was an elite player at Memphis. But with the inexperience and how young he is, im not sure how he will turn out. Who knows, Granger was kinda on the down low until we saw him finally play.

    Personally I am much more excited to see James "Flight" in action. I have seen him play on ESPN a few times and that man can throw it down. Hopefully he kinda fills Freddies spot.

    Who knows, only time can tell.
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  23. #73
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    2) Our coach has a history of severly limiting the roles for rookies. Sure you can argue that Granger got minutes last season - mostly becasue of Artest's trade demands and JO's injuries. He also spent most of last season at PF (which makes the Granger @ SG discussion odd to me).
    Explain this "history" to me.
    Which list is longer, rookies who got 1000 minutes with Rick or rookies who didn't?

    Prince. End of discussion. That's where the "didn't get PT with Rick" debate stops. Well, I'll let you have Primoz, though it was his 3rd year when Rick got to Indy and he didn't play under Isiah for the previous 2 years either on a team that was running very deep in young talent.

    But otherwise even Harrison would have easily hit 1000 minutes, as he was getting tons of playing time his rookie year till his injury took him out. David played in game 1 of that season and was getting 14-16 every game till the brawl, with a 29 minute game vs the Clippers even. In other words, it wasn't just desperation.

    Danny was dabbed into the rotation before Ron asked out (13 mpg in 11 of 14 NOV games) and SarJas was getting heavy minutes right off the bat. Sure 2nd round pick James Jones sat in year 1, but he got tons of PT in year 2 even when other players came back (see the playoffs for that, 20.6 mpg in 7 games vs Boston, more than Fred, Foster and Croshere).

    Fred Jones saw his minutes triple from his rookie year under Isiah to his sophmore year with Rick, and that was a strong, deep team that won 61 games, not a bunch of injuries and suspensions.

    Okur - way over 1000 his rookie year in Detroit. Rebraca, the same the year before. In fact most of these 1st and 2nd year guys pushed close to 1500+ minutes even.

    Sorry, but this is sore spot to me because it is so strongly refuted by facts. It's like a story that's been told enough that it's become true to people even though it isn't.

    I don't care if you blame it on the injuries/suspensions or not, that doesn't alter that fact that in Rick's 5 years of coaching he has had a lot more 1st and 2nd year players getting lots of PT than ones that didn't. Rick also runs some of the deepest rotations in the NBA, typically going to 10-11 players, while a guy like Larry Brown will go as tight as 8 even in the regular season (which is what happened in DET, thus Darko's PT).

    NO COACH would play Shawne Williams on a regular basis with this roster, assuming normal health. It's not like Daniels and Danny are over the hill, or JO and Al even. Al is 26, alright. He doesn't need to be rested, heck he's just starting to get into his prime years. Same for JO.

    But maybe someone here wants to step up and lie to us that they would give 10 mpg to Williams and take that out of JO, Al and Danny's time, just to let him develop.


    BTW, you know how many PLAYOFF TEAMS played rookies more than Rick did? NONE. Only Bogut had more minutes than Danny, and when you bring in SarJas too its not even close. Okay, you say the team had all those players out...but they still made the playoffs. So something has to give. Either it's a good team and RC still works rookies into the system, or teams that have to depend on rookies a lot simply don't make the playoffs normally but under Rick the Pacers did.

    Either way he comes out golden.

    Bogut was 4th among rookies in minutes. Granger was 8th, Sarjas was 12th. Garcia was 17th (Sacto). Ewing was 24th (LAC) and was under 1000 played. That's the top 5 rookie minutes from the 16 teams that made the postseason. If you are giving your rookie(s) 1500+ minutes it usually means something is wrong or you are coming off a horrible season (as in worst in the NBA range).

    The Baby Bulls were the exception, not the rule.

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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    ^^^^ Darn good post, Seth. Your facts refute the "Rick doesn't play rookies" myth. You've shown that Carlisle HAS given minutes to young players at a rate that is similar to other NBA coaches.

    Shawne Williams' career isn't going to be impared by playing under Carlisle.

    What do you say about David Harrison? He got 15 minutes per game last year. On the one hand, you could say that was simply what the rotation allowed him. On the other hand, it seemed to some to be less than he needed to learn to play the position.

    The argument that Harrison didn't play because he fouled out is wrong -- he rarely fouled out and he usually sat with 4 fouls.

    Would this year's team be better if Harrison had played 20+ minutes last year and learned more? (Yes, obviously) There is a strong argument for this, since we're thinner at the 5 and will have to rely on Harrison more than last.

    So, did Carlisle's handling of Harrison's particular case break the general rule you've shown? Has the development of the team been hindered because of Rick's handling of Harrison?

    Or was the kid just too clumsy to deserve more time than he got on an NBA team that was trying to win games?
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Explain this "history" to me.
    Which list is longer, rookies who got 1000 minutes with Rick or rookies who didn't?
    I think a lot of the beef with Carlisle has less to do with rookies than it does with over-the-hill players like Curry. I love intangibles, and I understand why coaches like trustworthy players on the court. But the amount of PT that Curry got drove me crazy.

    Incidentally, he's also the guy that got PT in front of Prince.

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