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Thread: Does anybody even care about....

  1. #26
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Leisure Suit Larry View Post
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    I think he probably means the whole Michael Curry thing but I disagree because Rick's job is to coach the team and get wins, not build a team.
    Not sure that's true.

    Rick's actions indicated that - as a coach - he believes it is his job to win every regular season and playoff game he coaches.

    That's a short-term view.

    Its seems to me that Rick's job is get win playoff series. And to do that, you've got to spend the regular season building your team into a playoff team.

    Rick defines everyone's role in training camp, based on their current abilities and his confidence in them, and barring injuries, that's that. He doesn't use the regular season properly - as a time to expiriment with and invest in his young players so that they might be in a position to help the team in the playoffs, when winning games really does matter.

    Rick, like many people in cyberspace, seems to forget that the regular season itself has very little meaning other than developing a team for the postseason.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  2. #27
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    What Jay said.


  3. #28

    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204 View Post
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    Rick won't give Harrison enough leeway to play through his foul problems.
    Right. Harrison was quick to get 2-3 fouls last season, but he seldom fouled out. (Does anyone know a source for how many times a player fouls out?)

    Carlisle used Harrison in the rotation, but rarely relied on him for more than the set minutes. I've shown elsewhere (in the thread about "Do we have a Shaq stopper") that Harrison could have played 30 minutes per game before fouling out. He only averaged around 15 minutes thanks to coach's decisions.

    Maybe Harrison did not deserve to be on the floor in the 4th quarter of games last season, but he was not kept off because of fouls.

    [Just to stand behind Jay. I don't mean to derail the focus of the thread on S. Williams.]
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Jay you have to admit, Rick has not had a lot of talent to work with when it comes to youngsters here. It is not like he is holding back top notch talents. Most of what he has had to work with up until Danny has been project players that everyone knew from the beginning was going to take time to develop.

    Although I will give you Primoz. He was ready to contribute on a nightly basis and was not given the opportunity. As is Harrison now. If Harrison is not playing meaningful minutes, is not a part of the regular rotation this season then I will happily eat some crow. Because this is the year he should be seeing 20 minutes a night, night in and night out.

  5. #30
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I don't know that he'll really be ready though. I'm one of the biggest DH fans on here, and I think he's close to being ready to be a major contributor to the Pacers. But we're just prolonging the inevitable in terms of leaving him on the court with foul problems to either figure it out or not. Or we'll give up on him and some other coach will give him a chance.

    David's not going to learn how to play through foul difficulty until he's allowed to play while in foul trouble (so that he learns how NOT to foul out.)

    All that he's learned so far is that he's the one guy in the league that fouls out with only four fouls.

    And I could understand sitting him down with four fouls if Rick was intending to bring him back later in the game. But he didn't. At four fouls, David was done.

    Sure, there remains a possibility that David may never "get it" and always have foul problems. But Rick hasn't even invested enough time in David for anyone to really figure out if that's the case, either.

    It takes 2-4 years for a big man to really learn how to play center in the NBA. I wonder if Rick's coaching has left David still 2-4 years away from that point?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  6. #31

    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204 View Post
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    Its seems to me that Rick's job is get win playoff series. And to do that, you've got to spend the regular season building your team into a playoff team.
    I hate to get off topic but...

    While I would say you have a point, I mena you do have to let some guys play and gel and see what they can do. Lets not forget what this team has gone through the past few seasons. We needed EVERY regular season win we could get to make the playoffs so IMO it's not like Rick had a lot of room to breathe and let the young guys play. This team has been full of uncertainity and I applaude Rick for going out and trying to win every regular season game he possiably could.

  7. #32
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    And, in fact, last season when the trade demands and injuries came along, Rick was forced into playing his young players. Yes, there's a transition period and players make mistakes.

    Granger had some DNP-CDs early in the season.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  8. #33
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I have nothing meaningful to say beyond what Jay is saying. Just know I've got you back.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by JayRedd View Post
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    Basically, I haven't talked about him because I have no opinion. Yet.
    Good answer! Not having an opinion didn't stop other guys from giving one though! (Giggle,giggle,snort)

  10. #35
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204 View Post
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    And, in fact, last season when the trade demands and injuries came along, Rick was forced into playing his young players. Yes, there's a transition period and players make mistakes.

    Granger had some DNP-CDs early in the season.
    Granger played 78 games last season and did have 3 DNP-CDs in November. He also missed a game in March but he had the flu then

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Right, Granger was on the fringes until Ron's trade demand forced Rick to play him.

    But even then, we all wanted Rick to play Danny at SF, and Rick tried Saras at SG and SJax at SF and expanded Fred's role.

    It wasn't until later - JO's injury, that forced Rick into playing Danny even more, and now at his second-best position (since Peja was then on board.)

    (His minutes did spike on the west coast trip but he was back down to 10, 10, and 9 mpg in late January). After the beginning of February, he played less than 19mpg only six times plus the flu game he missed.

    I think its safe to say circumstances forced Rick's hand, he wasn't going to voluntarily give Granger meaningful minutes otherwise.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #37
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    His first name should have been Marcus.
    I don't know about that...but I think we'd all agree that we're relieved his first name isn't Jay/Jason...that **** got really confusing around the time the one guy pulled a Cheney on his limo driver, rest his soul.

  13. #38
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I have to agree with Jay on what the regular season is for. We have a prime example in our own back yard. What did the Colts regular season mean?
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  14. #39
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I try not to think about Williams, let alone post about him, because the topic just pisses me off.

    1. We can't draft HS'ers anymore, so Larry drafted a kid one year removed.
    2. I was mad enough at the time when we left a half dozen quality points on the board. If I'd known we were gonna trade AJ for kibbles and bits, I might just have gone pyro on Conseco.
    3. What's our answer to the last two years? We draft a kid for whom the words "no heart" are in every single scouting report.
    4. I'm still convinced Larry's real target was Carney, and when we lost out on him, he picked his poor man's teammate, either cause he panicked or was just plain lazy. Or maybe he meant Marcus, and his cronies in the revamped scouting department were too timid to correct him.
    5. I still remember that Memphis-UCLA game. Worst college game I've seen in probably 10 years, and Williams was the worst player on the floor.
    6. The only chance the kid has is to go to the NBDL, but we don't have the balls to send him down.
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  15. #40
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    I try not to think about Williams, let alone post about him, because the topic just pisses me off.

    1. We can't draft HS'ers anymore, so Larry drafted a kid one year removed.
    That's simply an unfair criticism. Before Williams Larry drafted a 4-year, 3-year and another 4-year college player. (James Jones, David Harrison, Danny Granger).

    But you seem to be trying to pass this off like Larry has a problem with taking young people. He doesn't.

    3. What's our answer to the last two years? We draft a kid for whom the words "no heart" are in every single scouting report.
    Except, oddly enough, his own coach.

    4. I'm still convinced Larry's real target was Carney, and when we lost out on him, he picked his poor man's teammate, either cause he panicked or was just plain lazy. Or maybe he meant Marcus, and his cronies in the revamped scouting department were too timid to correct him.
    I'm sure your long, consistent dislike of Bird has nothing to do with you jumping to the conclusion he either panicked or was "just plain lazy".

  16. #41
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    That's simply an unfair criticism. Before Williams Larry drafted a 4-year, 3-year and another 4-year college player. (James Jones, David Harrison, Danny Granger).

    But you seem to be trying to pass this off like Larry has a problem with taking young people. He doesn't.
    Oh BS, don't put words in my mouth. I was just saying Mr. "I don't like HS'ers" went with the next best thing.



    Except, oddly enough, his own coach.
    What's Calipari supposed to say? "Every big game we had he flat out didn't show up. I thought I was a good motivator, but I couldn't do **** with him." If a college coach expects to get blue chip recruits, he campaigns for his players, no matter what.



    I'm sure your long, consistent dislike of Bird has nothing to do with you jumping to the conclusion he either panicked or was "just plain lazy".
    Let me clarify. I should have written, "I'm still convinced Larry's real target was Carney, and when we lost out on him, maybe he just picked his poor man's teammate, either cause he panicked or was just plain lazy."

    Doesn't change the fact it was a horrible pick, made even worse by them trying to say afterward he was Bird's guy all along.
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  17. #42
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy View Post
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    Oh BS, don't put words in my mouth. I was just saying Mr. "I don't like HS'ers" went with the next best thing.
    It's no more spin than trying to turn the fact that he's not a 3+ year college player into a legit criticism.

    What's Calipari supposed to say? "Every big game we had he flat out didn't show up. I thought I was a good motivator, but I couldn't do **** with him." If a college coach expects to get blue chip recruits, he campaigns for his players, no matter what.
    There's no comment, there's side-stepping it, there's giving cliches, they're lightly denying it, and then there's what he said, which was essentially that it was a load of crap.

    Doesn't change the fact it was a horrible pick
    I'm not high on the guy, and you know how I felt on draft night, but isn't calling Williams a horrible pick before he's even played an NBA game premature?

    , made even worse by them trying to say afterward he was Bird's guy all along.
    Do you have even a single piece of evidence that the other guy was Bird's man? Any at all? You said before the draft IIRC that no matter who he picked he'd say it was his guy, but suddenly you knew all along who it really was?

  18. #43
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I'm not as surprised.....as most of us...outside of Jermaniac...proabably haven't even heard of Shawne before the draft...much less during the draft. The most that I heard on him was from Bird's post-draft interview of him on ESPN.
    YESIR, Only dude on the forum to get our pick right.

  19. #44
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Back to Williams...

    Shawne has all the physical tools and raw talent to be a solid NBA player. Maybe most important is that he has a nice stroke. Strength is a concern, but he is still very young....so I would not be concerned about that yet.

    I don't think we will know what he may become for a couple years. He should get some garbage time behind Baston, JO and Harrington every few games. I don't expect to see him any other time.

    White, however, will be able to help us...primarily with great perimeter defense....something we really need right now.

  20. #45
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    It's no more spin than trying to turn the fact that he's not a 3+ year college player into a legit criticism.
    It's not?

    There's no comment, there's side-stepping it, there's giving cliches, they're lightly denying it, and then there's what he said, which was essentially that it was a load of crap.


    Come on. If a coach is flat out asked if player X has an attitude problem, he's really going to say, "No comment"? College coaches campaign for their players, even when they screw the program over by leaving early, for one reason, and one reason only. The more players you get to the pros, the better your program looks to recruits. As long as the player doesn't really **** them off, they're like second agents.

    I'm not high on the guy, and you know how I felt on draft night, but isn't calling Williams a horrible pick before he's even played an NBA game premature?
    Perhaps, but Mel Kiper does it too.

    Do you have even a single piece of evidence that the other guy was Bird's man? Any at all? You said before the draft IIRC that no matter who he picked he'd say it was his guy, but suddenly you knew all along who it really was?
    Somebody can go find the PC transcript, but I do remember Larry saying he could go mid-high lottery, when the highest anybody had Williams was #20 to NY, and I seem to remember his description being a polished player, not a project.

    Yes, I said it was a stupid statement, cause Larry would say whomever he got was "his guy". But Larry tipped his hat. When asked about Carney, he in effect said, "He's a good player, but he doesn't fit our team. He'd be better in a high-octane offense like Phoenix." Hello?! What has been drilled into our head since the day the season ended?

    Williams is a poor man's Carney. I don't see how anyone could possibly watch Memphis and say, "That Carney's okay, but look at that skinny kid over there! If he bulked up and worked on his shot and got his head in the game, he could really be something!" Yeah, he'd be Rodney Carney, just two inches taller.
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  21. #46

    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Jay,

    Just out of curiosity, what coach can you think of that gives rookies major minutes? And what coach can not be accused of limiting the development of players?

    Larry Brown limited Jalen Rose. Although the team flourished.

    Larry Bird was too hard on Rik Smits. Yet Croshere developed nicely.

    Isiah buried Croshere. Yet JO finally got off the Portland bench to play.

    RC buried David Harrison. Yet Granger gets some pretty significant minutes.

    Sorry, I can't buy the "Rick's hand was forced" argument. Anytime you have a deep team, some good talent gets buried at certain spots. There are other rotations Rick could have come up with or played guys even more minutes, but Granger got PT b/c he deserved it.

    Was the Artest situation fortuitous for him? Absolutely! But Kurt Warner was pretty lucky when Trent Green went down with an injury for the Rams. Things happen, but when opportunity knocks, you have to play. And the coach has to let him play.

    I think not playing new folks is a valid criticism of Carlisle, I just want to make sure we are keeping it real and looking at good comparisons. All coaches have players that tend to do better/worse under their system than others.
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  22. #47

    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I have hope that Williams will be a very good player. He's got the tools and the attitude/work ethic. The thing is, he doesn't have anywhere to play this season. White does, as he can play 3 positions well and PG/SG are currently manned by (for the most part) less than ideal candidates, although I like Tinsley and to a lesser extent Jackson.

    White is more polished, hence he is getting a little more hype. I think next offseason is when we really start hearing a lot about Williams.

  23. #48
    Raw Talent Robertmto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    I agree with Kegboy. Only I think Bird took Williams because he hopes that Carney rubbe doff on him just enought to make him a "steal".
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  24. #49
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    The difference between Dion Glover and Williams is that Shawne has a better attitude. Whether that is for show or not is yet to be determined. A lot of people said that this draft was deep with mediocre to below average players. It never had a single exciting prospect (Adam Morrision's pornstache is a prospect for Vivid). If Shawne can make an impact off the bench in 3 years he will exceed my expectations. If talent meant success then Harold Miner, JR Rider, and Ron Artest would be some of the most successful players in the NBA. The physicallity of the NBA is fearce, but the mental toughest that a player poses can dictate how far he will go. Shawne's defense will be his best assett earlier on in his career, because besides JO (I know Baston too) is the only shot blocker on this team.

    In the end players are measured by their classmates. Granger will be measured by Charlie V., Marvin Williams, Diogu, Frye and other players. Gerald Green, Warrick, Graham, Jarret Jack (starting for the blazers) are all players that we could have drafted instead of Granger. But lets face it Danny belonged in the first 10 picks not the second 10 picks

  25. #50
    It Might Be a Soft J JayRedd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Does anybody even care about....

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdStrike View Post
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    I have hope that Williams will be a very good player. He's got the tools and the attitude/work ethic. The thing is, he doesn't have anywhere to play this season. White does, as he can play 3 positions well and PG/SG are currently manned by (for the most part) less than ideal candidates, although I like Tinsley and to a lesser extent Jackson.
    Not sure where people are getting the idea that James White can play PG in the NBA.
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