Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Page of 6
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 template Next
  • #1

    Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

    These are in no particular order, but are some of the things you hear in the media, or on message boards, that people SAY or THINK are really important to winning, but in my view aren't nearly as important as most fans think:

    1. "Off floor chemistry". You hear this alot from losing teams and franchises.....often you'll hear something like "This guy is good in the lockerroom or clubhouse." Now, Im not saying that you want your entire team fighting with each other and stabbing each other in the back in the media, not at all. I'm just saying that how players communicate and get along ON THE COURT is much more important than if they get along away from the arena. I always have believed and told teams that I don't really care if you all get along with each other or not, but it would be more FUN for all of us if you do....but either way we are going to do things on the floor the right way.

    Chemistry is tricky anyway.....lets say you have 8 players on your team that laugh and joke alot, all get along, and in general are fun to be around but are average players. You get a new player who plays harder than they do, works out extra hard, watches more film than they do, and because of that gets to play ahead of some of the guys in the 8 player "clique."...The 8 returning guys don't like the new guy that much, so therefore you might say the "chemistry" is bad now on this team.....you tell me, is there really a problem here? If so, who is the bad apple in this case? Chemistry problems and solutions arent always as apparent as they seem....

    2. " We don't have enough experience." Thats an excuse usually....the best players are the best players, and thats who should play. Too many decisions are made based on who has 'experience" and who doesnt. How many times have we seen a coach bring in an older player in a clutch situation, even though in reality that player is worse than the guy he replaced? You see that in baseball all the time, when some idiot manager takes out a young pitcher for some old reliever who sucks, but has the elusive "experience", and you see it in basketball too often as well.

    3. Coaches off season favorite quote: "We want to play more uptempo."
    We are going thru this here this summer, but it isnt just us. Almost every college and pro coach tells his fan base this each summer, to persuade potential recruits and alumni to get on board, and to excite the fans enough to start buying tickets. No one ever announces this: "This year, we are going to try and slow it down, maximize each possession, because our defense still sucks and we only won 25% of our games last year." I know in our case we are making personnel changes that would indicate we really ARE going to play a little faster, but all 30 teams are saying that I promise you, and few of them will follow thru.

    4. Timeouts. In generally, these are overrated. Most of the time there is actually very little done during a timeout other than just get a rest...there is very little actually strategic changes or anything, yet every time you see a 6 point spurt by someone, the opposition coach jumps up to stop the run. This always amuses me especially if its right out of a quarter or halftime break.....15 minutes to discuss things werent long enough? LOL....Im not saying they arent effective in some cases, but in general, they are overused. Also, I guarantee that at the end of games when coaches diagram something on their board, that more often than not the play designed isnt what happens......and i'd also tell you that generally whats being drawn isnt something new, but its just a reminder of something thats been done in practice time and time again. No coach becomes a genius by something he instantly comes up with at the spur of the moment in a 20 sec timeout.

    5. Halftime pep talks. These don't work over an 82 game season, especially with experienced professionals who already have pride in their performance. Actually, Id bet you that the coaches only address their teams about 2 minutes total during these breaks.....

    6. "Revenge" as a motivator. People don't play well just to spite someone else....they have to play well for other reasons, be it pride, or desire to achieve great things, or whatever.....being motivated to gain revenge on someone because they've beaten you isnt a strong enough of an emotion to carry you long into games.

    7. "Confidence" for a player. Thats crap basically when you hear a statement like this :"Johnny is a better shooter than he is showing, he just has lost his confidence." Or you might hear " Tommy was doing so well, but then the coach yelled at him and he lost his confidence." I hate that as an excuse, I really do. My statement to that is " I could care less if you have all the confidence in the world, or if you have none....when you play or, or make a move, or take a shot I WANT TO HAVE CONFIDENCE AS YOUR COACH it will work!" For instance, for our team what good does it do for Stephen Jackson to have confidence that he can make a 22 ft jumper off the dribble with a hand in his face, if indeed he can't? I hear the confidence argument on other players too....I say, especially at the NBA level, if you are so weakminded that a little adversity or failure hurts your so called "confidence" to the point you can't play effectively, then you are too weakminded to be here....quit feeling sorry for yourself and get better, so I personally have enough CONFIDENCE to put you back out there.

    8. Blocked Shots....now, Im not saying they aren't nice to have, im just saying they arent as important as CONTESTED SHOTS, i.e. shots taken while being guarded with a hand up in the shooters face. If some player blocks 3 shots a game, but 7 other times he gets faked out and gives up a driving layup, then is this guy really as big a help as he seems to be defensively? Or if while hunting for a block he leaves his man open to get a rebound putback, or if he blocks it violently out of bounds and gives the offense the ball back....does any of that really help you?

    9. 3 point shots early in the game, especially if all by one guy. This can become "fool's gold" for a team, and if they forget to get the ball inside, or drive and get foul shots, early success for the 3 can often breed a lack of movement and a reliance on difficult shots that often can get you in big big trouble in a game.

    10. The starting lineup is way way way overrated. I know its fun to talk about, but just think about it: is who plays the very first 6 minutes of the game more important than who plays the last 6 minutes? Of course not....right now we have threads discussing who will start for us on opening night, but does it really matter? I think it would be smarter to worry about who is going to play in the last quarter of the game, with winning or losing on the line. Who do we want in up 8 with 3 minutes to go? Who do we want in if we are behind and have the ball late? Who do we want in if we are up 2 with 10 seconds left and they have the ball? Who do we want to take the last shot for us, and how do we want to get it to him? These are the things coaches worry about, and consider key decisions. They are really the things we should think about too.

    Sorry for the rant....those things have been on my mind while reading some message boards this past week, not just here. I'm sure there are other overrated things too that you all may want to post as well.

    JMO
    Last edited by thunderbird1245; 08-01-2008, 10:23 PM.
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

    Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
    7. "Confidence" for a player. Thats crap basically when you hear a statement like this :"Johnny is a better shooter than he is showing, he just has lost his confidence." Or you might hear " Tommy was doing so well, but then the coach yelled at him and he lost his confidence." I hate that as an excuse, I really do. My statement to that is " I could care less if you have all the confidence in the world, or if you have none....when you play or, or make a move, or take a shot I WANT TO HAVE CONFIDENCE AS YOUR COACH it will work!" For instance, for our team what good does it do for Stephen Jackson to have confidence that he can make a 22 ft jumper off the dribble with a hand in his face, if indeed he can't? I hear the confidence argument on other players too....I say, especially at the NBA level, if you are so weakminded that a little adversity or failure hurts your so called "confidence" to the point you can't play effectively, then you are too weakminded to be here....quit feeling sorry for yourself and get better, so I personally have enough CONFIDENCE to put you back out there.
    ARE YOU F'IN KIDDING ME? This may be the single most wrong statement I have ever seen posted on this board. I know you're trying to make a point, but this is like saying the Pope is Jewish: it's just incorrect.

    Confidence is a huge, huge factor for so many players. In fact, one of the main things young guys develop is confidence in their game, which only comes from experience. There's also cockiness, which is just a sort of posturing used by many players who aren't truly confident and are compensating. But cool, collected self-confidence is one of the fundamental attributes in any athlete, in any sport.

    So many of the greats, from Jordan to Chamberlin to Bryant, have self-confidence bordering on megalomania. And so many guys who never seem to be able to take it to the next level fail because of a lack of confidence. When you see a guy talking to himself, shaking his head, and failing to step up when it counts, that's all confidence.

    Meanwhile, some aspects of the game are largely about confidence. You mentioned shooting, both from long distance and from the line; but great defenders are also confident in their ability to recover from a gamble, or shut the opposing player down.

    Two things develop assured confidence rather than dangerous cockiness: 1) experience, as I mentioned, and 2) mentoring from coaches. I gather from your posts you are a coach. I feel very sorry for your players, particularly if they're younger.
    2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

      8. Blocked Shots....now, Im not saying they aren't nice to have, im just saying they arent as important as CONTESTED SHOTS, i.e. shots taken while being guarded with a hand up in the shooters face. If some player blocks 3 shots a game, but 7 other times he gets faked out and gives up a driving layup, then is this guy really as big a help as he seems to be defensively? Or if while hunting for a block he leaves his man open to get a rebound putback, or if he blocks it violently out of bounds and gives the offense the ball back....does any of that really help you?
      I could show the picture, but what would be the use? You guys have already seen it 3,000 times since the 2004 ECF....

      As to your second point, a good shot-blocker knews when to knock the ball into row 10 to send a message, and when to gently tap the shot to a teamate.

      In either case, a shot-blocking presense will always affect a game moreso than a good position defender, because of the intimidation factor.

      There's a saying: Bill Russell blocked more shots without jumping than he did by leaving the floor.

      It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

      Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
      Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
      NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

        I agree with some but strongly disagree with some other ones.

        Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
        6. "Revenge" as a motivator. People don't play well just to spite someone else....they have to play well for other reasons, be it pride, or desire to achieve great things, or whatever.....being motivated to gain revenge on someone because they've beaten you isnt a strong enough of an emotion to carry you long into games.
        So you're telling me the killer games AJ had against the Nets this season were just coincidences? I mean, the guy had a near-perfect game against them early in the season and dropped 40 on them at the very end. Granted, that was a playoff game, but AJ played his best against the Nets, just like Al played really well against the Pacers (even though he wanted to leave, blah blah). People look for motiviation and sometimes "I'm gonna show these ******** up because they screwed me" is exactly what works.

        7. "Confidence" for a player. Thats crap basically when you hear a statement like this :"Johnny is a better shooter than he is showing, he just has lost his confidence." Or you might hear " Tommy was doing so well, but then the coach yelled at him and he lost his confidence." I hate that as an excuse, I really do. My statement to that is " I could care less if you have all the confidence in the world, or if you have none....when you play or, or make a move, or take a shot I WANT TO HAVE CONFIDENCE AS YOUR COACH it will work!" For instance, for our team what good does it do for Stephen Jackson to have confidence that he can make a 22 ft jumper off the dribble with a hand in his face, if indeed he can't? I hear the confidence argument on other players too....I say, especially at the NBA level, if you are so weakminded that a little adversity or failure hurts your so called "confidence" to the point you can't play effectively, then you are too weakminded to be here....quit feeling sorry for yourself and get better, so I personally have enough CONFIDENCE to put you back out there.
        Confidence plays into everything, from high-level NBA jobs to truck driving. It's a yin-yang thing -- people are good because they're confident and confident because they're good. As a writer I know I do best after I go through and read fan mail... why? If I have people backing me and I know it, I feel better and I'm not as likely to second-guess myself.

        8. Blocked Shots....now, Im not saying they aren't nice to have, im just saying they arent as important as CONTESTED SHOTS, i.e. shots taken while being guarded with a hand up in the shooters face. If some player blocks 3 shots a game, but 7 other times he gets faked out and gives up a driving layup, then is this guy really as big a help as he seems to be defensively? Or if while hunting for a block he leaves his man open to get a rebound putback, or if he blocks it violently out of bounds and gives the offense the ball back....does any of that really help you?
        This kind of ties into the confidence thing and definitely ties into on-court morale (something you yourself said is important). If a guy's going up for every shot, yeah, a coach is going to tell him to knock it off. You can't tell me that one dramatic block can't turn a game's momentum around, though.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

          1. "Off floor chemistry". You hear this alot from losing teams and franchises.....often you'll hear something like "This guy is good in the lockerroom or clubhouse." Now, Im not saying that you want your entire team fighting with each other and stabbing each other in the back in the media, not at all. I'm just saying that how players communicate and get along ON THE COURT is much more important than if they get along away from the arena. I always have believed and told teams that I don't really care if you all get along with each other or not, but it would be more FUN for all of us if you do....but either way we are going to do things on the floor the right way.

          Chemistry is tricky anyway.....lets say you have 8 players on your team that laugh and joke alot, all get along, and in general are fun to be around but are average players. You get a new player who plays harder than they do, works out extra hard, watches more film than they do, and because of that gets to play ahead of some of the guys in the 8 player "clique."...The 8 returning guys don't like the new guy that much, so therefore you might say the "chemistry" is bad now on this team.....you tell me, is there really a problem here? If so, who is the bad apple in this case? Chemistry problems and solutions arent always as apparent as they seem....


          Care to guess which Pacer he used to get into fist-fights with?

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

            Originally posted by bulldog View Post
            ARE YOU F'IN KIDDING ME? This may be the single most wrong statement I have ever seen posted on this board. I know you're trying to make a point, but this is like saying the Pope is Jewish: it's just incorrect.

            Confidence is a huge, huge factor for so many players. In fact, one of the main things young guys develop is confidence in their game, which only comes from experience. There's also cockiness, which is just a sort of posturing used by many players who aren't truly confident and are compensating. But cool, collected self-confidence is one of the fundamental attributes in any athlete, in any sport.

            So many of the greats, from Jordan to Chamberlin to Bryant, have self-confidence bordering on megalomania. And so many guys who never seem to be able to take it to the next level fail because of a lack of confidence. When you see a guy talking to himself, shaking his head, and failing to step up when it counts, that's all confidence.

            Meanwhile, some aspects of the game are largely about confidence. You mentioned shooting, both from long distance and from the line; but great defenders are also confident in their ability to recover from a gamble, or shut the opposing player down.

            Two things develop assured confidence rather than dangerous cockiness: 1) experience, as I mentioned, and 2) mentoring from coaches. I gather from your posts you are a coach. I feel very sorry for your players, particularly if they're younger.

            Ummm...I think you mightve missed my point, or maybe I wasn't clear enough in how I stated it. Im not trying to say confidence isnt a nice thing to have, or that it isnt important, im just saying its an overrated factor.

            Let me try again. Let's just use Jordan for example.....he was obviously a great great player, maybe the greatest player who ever played. Now, did his confidence in himself allow him to be great as he was, or did his greatness allow him to have the supreme confidence he had? Which came first, in your view?

            I guess I was trying to make a point in a sort of humorous way, and maybe it doesnt come across well on a printed page. But face it, I can have all the confidence in the world I can hit my tee shot 250 yards over the water, but if my swing itself isnt good enough to do so, then I won't, no matter how many mind tricks I play on myself to allow me to try. What I need in this case isn't more "confidence" in my swing, its that I need a golf lesson.

            The point I was trying to make is that obviously, a player has to have a mental toughness and self assuredness to be able to perform under pressure. I don't want guys to be able to fail and have the excuse be that their "confidence" was down for some reason.

            Example #1: Player who feels he should start doesn't, and instead has his minutes cut because a better player has been brought in. When he does play, he plays worse, and fans claim its because this player has "lost his confidence." What is the solution? To me, the player just needs to get over it, play better, work harder and get his minutes back. Can't just give him his minutes back to soothe his ego.

            Example #2

            5 seconds left....Pacers ball, ball goes into Jackson, who is double teamed and trapped. 2 players appear to be open close enough for Jackson to find them. Instead, Jackson, who has "unlimited confidence", shoots and misses everything, and Pacers lose. Should we praise his decision and pat him on the back for having a great amount of "confidence"? After all, he truly felt he'd make that 23 foot turnaround over 2 guys......should a coach be mad at that?

            My point was, if Jackson ( and he was just a convenient example, Im not trying to make this point about him specifically) is going to take that shot, its me PERSONALLY who wants to have "confidence" he is going to make it, and if I as his coach don't think he can make it, then I dont want him shooting it.

            Does that explain it better?

            JMO

            P.S. 99% of my players love playing for me, so don't think Im some evil tyrant destroying young people for fun lol.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

              You have to have the talent, but if you don't the confidence to come with it, you won't actualize it, or at least not consistently. I've seen it in tons of players.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

                Let me try again. Let's just use Jordan for example.....he was obviously a great great player, maybe the greatest player who ever played. Now, did his confidence in himself allow him to be great as he was, or did his greatness allow him to have the supreme confidence he had? Which came first, in your view?
                Jordan got cut from his very first varsity tryout. He wasn't always that talented, but he NEVER lacked confidence.

                It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

                  I just loved playing offense, posting up, against shot-blockers. They block my shot and celebrate about it, I run the ball down and score while they are still celebrating, they still talk trash about it even though I scored 2 points!

                  Then they are so giddy about having blocked my shot that pump fakes are GUARANTEED to work from that point on.

                  Shot blocking can be part of good defense but it doesn't make you a good defender.
                  The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

                    Originally posted by pacertom View Post
                    I just loved playing offense, posting up, against shot-blockers. They block my shot and celebrate about it, I run the ball down and score while they are still celebrating, they still talk trash about it even though I scored 2 points!

                    Then they are so giddy about having blocked my shot that pump fakes are GUARANTEED to work from that point on.

                    Shot blocking can be part of good defense but it doesn't make you a good defender.
                    So how did you deal with them after highschool?

                    Heck, that's being generous. I can't recall seeing the scenario you just described since 2nd grade.

                    I can just imagine Rip Hamilton or Danny Granger taking the ball down the lane and seeing ben wallace or alonzo mourning in their way:

                    "It's ok, if he blocks my shot I can just run the ball down and score while he's celebrating! Yay!"

                    Where did you pick up the impression that all shot-blockers got on the floor by being stupid?

                    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                    Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                    Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                    NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

                      Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                      Jordan got cut from his very first varsity tryout. He wasn't always that talented, but he NEVER lacked confidence.

                      This thread is letting me know what it must be like to be Bob Kravitz and have everyone disagree with you lol.

                      I'm glad you brought that example up. Here are the 2 possibilities involving "confidence" that may explain what I mean.

                      #1 Jordan is cut, very disappointed, figures out he wasnt good enough and gets extremely motivated to work harder, come back stronger and better, and make the team better. In this case, which is what really happened, his own self worth and confidence level was grounded in reality....and he worked hard to make sure that initial roadblock was overcome. He knew he'd improved thru his hard work and therefore his "confidence" was justified.

                      #2 Jordan is cut, but instead of disappointment, feels like it was all a big mistake and that he did nothing wrong, and that he shouldve made the team. Jordan is "confident" that he is indeed better than anyone on the team, and in the next season's tryout has not improved, and gets cut again.

                      Now, in example #2, would Jordan's problem have been a "lack of confidence"? Of course not, it was a lack of having a realistic viewpoint on his own limitations as a player. Its a good thing for all of us who love basketball that this isnt what happened to him.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

                        Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                        T
                        #1 Jordan is cut, very disappointed, figures out he wasnt good enough and gets extremely motivated to work harder, come back stronger and better, and make the team better. In this case, which is what really happened, his own self worth and confidence level was grounded in reality....and he worked hard to make sure that initial roadblock was overcome. He knew he'd improved thru his hard work and therefore his "confidence" was justified.
                        By your logic, if Jordan didn't have confidence, he never would have worked hard to make himself the greatest player of all time, he would have quit after getting cut thinking he wasn't good enough.

                        He didn't just wake up one morning and become able to dunk from the FT line or play stifling defense: He worked at it, because he knew if he did he'd be a better player. You don't come back from failure without conficence.

                        #2 Jordan is cut, but instead of disappointment, feels like it was all a big mistake and that he did nothing wrong, and that he shouldve made the team. Jordan is "confident" that he is indeed better than anyone on the team, and in the next season's tryout has not improved, and gets cut again.

                        Now, in example #2, would Jordan's problem have been a "lack of confidence"? Of course not, it was a lack of having a realistic viewpoint on his own limitations as a player. Its a good thing for all of us who love basketball that this isnt what happened to him.
                        What you described in #2 isn't true confidence, it's arrogance.

                        Confidence is knowing you are better than everyone says you are, wnd working hard to prove everyone else wrong next year.

                        Confidence is coming back from missing more game-winners than you made (which jordan did) in your career and still coming back to take the next one thinking it will go in.

                        It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                        Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                        Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                        NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

                          I still disagree on the confidence thing. I have watched young players suddenly gain the awareness that they belong. It comes with the rest of their understanding of the game. At first a player might have the speed, strength, whatever, but doesn't believe it. He assumes that these famous vets can do more than him and that he is just the new guy who shouldn't even touch the ball.

                          I watched Harrington play like this for a few years, and I can remember the exact moment he stopped it. Vancouver in town, he posts SAR up. As soon as he touches the ball he goes into that super-quick spin of his, right to the rim via the lane, monster play for the bucket. He'd never made a play that strong against a player of that caliber, but he sure didn't instantly get that fast - he had it in him all along (or at least had it for awhile before that moment).

                          It was like a light-bulb went off and suddenly he realized "I belong here, I can play with the best". His game took a dramatic jump after that point.

                          I think James Jones got that with his matchup against Pierce not too long after the brawl. In that case he was forced to try, thrown into the pool to sink or swim if you will, so he just tried to survive. And in doing so he saw that he could handle it. It totally changed his poise from that point on. He started hitting late in the clock jumpers instead of passing it, and he wasn't afraid to take a 3 earlier in plays if he thought he had it.


                          A lot of green players have the coach yelling at them to take the open shot because they defer to the vets too much. Chris Paul was doing that with the US team early into the tourney even.


                          Don't get me wrong, some players have TOO MUCH confidence and think every shot and play is theirs for the taking, even if it isn't. But that's another problem entirely.


                          What you are describing T'Bird IS CONFIDENCE, as in #1 Jordan had CONFIDENCE in his ability to improve. You are mispairing #1 and #2 for this purpose. The real alternate would be "is cut, LACKS confidence that he'll ever be good enough, never tries to make the team again".

                          Your #2 is OVER confidence, or as you say a misunderstanding of his own ability. That's a different issue. My verison of #2 is where lacking confidence ruins a player. Heck, if Jordan wasn't confident he might not even have tried out the FIRST time, right?

                          "Aw, I'm not good enough to play with the varsity."

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

                            Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                            I still disagree on the confidence thing. I have watched young players suddenly gain the awareness that they belong. It comes with the rest of their understanding of the game. At first a player might have the speed, strength, whatever, but doesn't believe it. He assumes that these famous vets can do more than him and that he is just the new guy who shouldn't even touch the ball.
                            Both your points on development and confidence/overconfidence are right on the money. True confidence is developed, over time, by practice and game experience. I think coaches play a major role in this development, Tbird, which is what my comment was about.
                            2010 IKL Fantasy Basketball Champion Baltimore Bulldogs

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: Winning basketball: top ten overrated things you hear

                              Originally posted by Kstat View Post
                              By your logic, if Jordan didn't have confidence, he never would have worked hard to make himself the greatest player of all time, he would have quit after getting cut thinking he wasn't good enough.

                              He didn't just wake up one morning and become able to dunk from the FT line or play stifling defense: He worked at it, because he knew if he did he'd be a better player. You don't come back from failure without conficence.



                              What you described in #2 isn't true confidence, it's arrogance.

                              Confidence is knowing you are better than everyone says you are, wnd working hard to prove everyone else wrong next year.

                              Confidence is coming back from missing more game-winners than you made (which jordan did) in your career and still coming back to take the next one thinking it will go in.
                              That last part sounds like a good idea for a commercial....oh yeah, that already happened lol.

                              Not to keep arguing semantics here, but in the first example, I'd say he didnt necessarily have confidence that he'd become the best player ever by practicing, Id say he just had a great deal of determination to not fail again at something he desperately wanted. By practicing and seeing his own improvement, I think he DEVELOPED confidence that continued to carry him through.

                              The fact whether greatness is borne thru the confident actions of the supremely gifted just to achieve winning, or if greatness is borne thru an extreme maniacal hatred of losing and/or fear of failure is one argument we can have on another day. Im not sure I really know the answer to that question.

                              Comment

                              Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 template Next
                              Working...
                              X