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Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

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  • #1

    Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

    I promised someone I'd post my Harrington thoughts when I joined this forum after he was officially ours. With this much time between the rumors of his interest in returning here and now, Ive had lots of time to put together my thoughts from a strategic perspective on how we might best use, what we need to do to compliment and get the most out of him, and what we need to do still coverup the things that Harrington doesnt bring us. Im going to do his offensive game first as I see it, and Ill do defense at a later time.

    First, the positives.....and there are many. Harrington gives us a great second option in the low post to score. In the past, we've been a team that has had basically one player only who could score with any type consistency with his back to the basket, and now we have two. Harrington is a legitimate go to player on the block most of the time, especially if the matchups dictate him being guarded by a smaller player. I actually disagree a little bit with the consensus that Al starts at the inside with JO and 3 perimeter players, but we will have to see how it works out. I view Harrington as a big post up asset against most "3" men in the league, and most of the backup "4" men.

    Having a legitimate post up threat in the game at all times will be a drastic upgrade for us, in the 12-15 minutes per game JO isnt in there. This should eliminate many of the long long scoring droughts we often have, as we will always have Harrington to give the ball to to score on the block or get to the line.

    Because I think that, its key for our second unit to always have one of these 2 players in the game with them. I wouldnt look for Harrington and O'Neal to be on the floor together as much as you might think. I would assume we'd start each half with them in, and play the last 7 minutes or so with them in together....otherwise you'll probably see one or the other in there, but not both. I see a scenario where Al starts, comes out after about 7 minutes, rests til the end of the quarter, then starts the second quarter as a sub for JO.

    When JO and Harrington are in the game together, I love the flexibilty to Harringtons game. He has really improved his ballhandling, and especially his outside shot. What I love the most about how Al plays and how he fits in for us is that he can post up even with JO in the game with him, and that enables JO to drift to the high post or short corner alot. I love using JO as a cutter, having him sets screens and then flashing to the ball, involving him in "ballscreen" situations, and overall using him in a much more dynamic and fluid way. His offensive rebounding should improve by a couple boards a night, simply because he wont be doubled as much, and he'll be crashing the boards with much more energy and vigor, knowing we arent totally screwed if he gets in foul trouble. Also, the fact that he wont be taking the shot on the block means he will have more freedom to rebound on the offensive end....its hard to get an offensive board when you are the one taking a turnaround jumper with 2 guys on you or near you.

    If JO has his jump shot from 12-15 feet going, the Pacers might have the most dynamic and effective inside out combo offensively in the league. I think it will be important for the Pacers to run alot of high/low stuff to utilize these guys in the best fashion.....and to be able to enter the ball to the low post more effectively.

    The effect of having Harrington also provides us big insurance in case JO goes down with injury, and theoretically should allow RC to cut JO's minutes back slightly to around 32 minutes per game, which is what I definitely think we should do. In that way we can keep him fresher and healthier hopefully for the entire season.

    Now, we are going to have to figure out a way to put Harrington, Oneal, and Harrison in the game at the same time, and figure out a way to play offensively with that grouping in there. That group really tilts the matchups in Harrington's favor, as he is a physical nightmare for most 3 men inside. If I was to be asked Id recommend a "2 out-3in" type offense so we can play a "jumbo" lineup like this....where you have Harrison serving primarily as a screener for both Harrington and Oneal in any area below the foul line....this would be my favorite front court for the Pacers actually, and I hope I get to see it. (Before you ask where is Danny....I love the idea of Granger as a perimeter player, and guarding the opponents best guard....Im one of the guys who thinks he can guard a Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, and such people...JMO)



    OK, now the negatives:

    Al is not a great "creator" off the dribble. More than likely if Harrington drives to the bucket, its to score himself, not to dish to anyone else. The Pacers lack of shooters will mean opposing teams will mean teams will really sag off of our perimeter guys, and that might make life difficult for Harrington, as he will have alot of traffic in the paint to see that he didnt have in Atlanta with Joe Johnson standing on the wing.

    Along with the lack of shooters, a real huge problem we have right now is though we have 2 very good post up threats, we don't have anyone very good at throwing the ball to them while posting up. That will likely cause a few different problems if it isnt addressed....it makes your post guy vacate his area and drift outside further away from the goal, making him easier to defend and double.....it makes the offense slow down as the passer struggles to get the ball in to the post, and then slow down again as the post player has to make dribble moves to score. As much as I love Daniels and what he might bring us, he wont be able to enter the ball to the post very well, as he is a poor shooter and therefore his man will sag in on our post guys.....our entire team is filled with guys who will struggle in this area, and thats bad news if your 2 best offensive threats are primarily post up guys.

    Not because we need a 3 point specialist, but because we need someone to throw the ball inside and to hit the occasional 3 point shot as a trailer on the fast break, our roster still needs some additions. At this point, you can't trade Jackson, because he still is our best 3 point shooter and popst feeder we have, although he isnt good enough at either to be the best on a championship level team. Our best chip at this point to get a player like that is probably Foster.....if we can find a team who possibly was weak last year on the glass and could use a "speciality" player like he ideally is.

    In summary, Harrington is a huge offensive upgrade, and will be even bigger of a help if we can acquire a perimeter player who can feed the post, or even 2 if we can pull it off. With the roster the way it is right now, id say we are a mid to upper 40's win team, with the ability to go over 50 if we stay healthy and add where I think we need to add to.

    JMO
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  • #2
    Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

    Wow, nice work. I'll have to digest this before comment, but good job!!

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

      I agree with you that they shouldn't share the court too often...all-in-all a very good post man...I wish I had something more intelligent to add, but sadly I do not

      Do you think Tinsley could feed the post or is he too much of a penetrator? I think a healthy Tinsley is the best thing that can happen to us...but I don't get to watch that many games since I'm an outsider (Jersey ) so let me know what you think

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

        No disrespect to UB or Peck, but posts like this put you in serious consideration for MVP. I am sure you will be in the Rookie poster of the year running, but wow, I have only had a chance to read a few of your posts but it’s a pleasure to have you here at PD.

        As for the topic at hand, I agree with you. I still want to see how Al translates on the defensive end, I haven’t really paid attention to him since he left but that was one area he was kind of weak in (post surgery).

        I do think we have a player who can feed the post, the problem is he stays healthy as often as the Pacers make a mid-season trade (ok, bad analogy but you get my point).

        I also disagree with you in that we should shy away from trading Jackson. I think we can trade him for a player that you describe, and that said player would not be the headache that Jackson is.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

          The bottom line on the current team makeup is we have a very solid frontcourt rotation.

          Conversely, we have a highly unstable/unpredictable backcourt situation for a variety of reasons (lack of experience, unproven, injuries, attitude, etc.). IMO it's not that there's a complete void of talent. Just tons of IFs!

          So, any chance of reaching the 50 win plateau some have brought up, including TB1245, will be very dependent on what develops out of our G corps, whatever it may be comprised of come opening night.
          I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

          -Emiliano Zapata

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

            Originally posted by vapacersfan View Post
            No disrespect to UB or Peck, but posts like this put you in serious consideration for MVP. I am sure you will be in the Rookie poster of the year running, but wow, I have only had a chance to read a few of your posts but it’s a pleasure to have you here at PD.

            As for the topic at hand, I agree with you. I still want to see how Al translates on the defensive end, I haven’t really paid attention to him since he left but that was one area he was kind of weak in (post surgery).

            I do think we have a player who can feed the post, the problem is he stays healthy as often as the Pacers make a mid-season trade (ok, bad analogy but you get my point).

            I also disagree with you in that we should shy away from trading Jackson. I think we can trade him for a player that you describe, and that said player would not be the headache that Jackson is.

            Thank you for the kind words.

            I think I need to clarify my thoughts a bit on feeding the post. I have no question, that when healthy, Tinsley can break his man down sometimes and get into the paint, either in a broken play scenario on the half court or in a fast break situation.

            However, in a half court situation with all 5 defenders back and in position, the person feeding the post from the wing (the way it is designed to happen and most often happen), needs to be at least a threat to take a shot, or his man backs off of him and causes difficulty making the post entry pass. He doesnt necessarily steal it or deflect it, he just makes it harder to throw it in there, causing (A)the post man to take additional pounding before recieving it, (B) the post man to have come out further away from the bucket to get it, (C) the open post man to not get the ball at all and the play breaking down (D) the post plyer to finally get the ball but have less time to make a move, and be forced to do something pressured up against the shot clock and out of rhythm. Just the very delay factor of not being able to throw the ball inside causes enough problems to grinfd your offense to a halt.

            Imagine for a minute back in the day when Reggie was playing, and how we had him feed the ball inside when we wanted to really force the ball in there. if his man backed off to help at all, he could rise up and fire. if he even faked like he'd do that, his man would be forced to rush him, thereby creating the space needed to get the ball inside like we wanted to.

            Realize that all offense is interrelated in some way. Even a pass made inside to JO or Harrington thats on time, but made to the wrong side of them or where they dont want it, can put them off balance and make them ineffective, irregardless of the defense guarding them. This is an area AJ struggled in I thought...he made the pass, but it took a long time and it often wasnt exactly on the money. Jackson isnt great at this either, but he is the best we have at it currently. If you can't picture what Im saying, imagine Peyton Manning hitting Marvin in stride with the perfect pass so he can keep running up field, and then think how it changes if the pass is instead thrown by Sorgi instead thrown behind him, forcing him to stop and turn and get nailed by an on rushing safety......both are completed passes, but which one is better?

            Don't get me wrong, Im ok with trading Jackson if need be.....I realize there are reasons to do so, Im just saying when and if we do that, we will need to acquire someone who can feed the ball inside as a top priority, and do it from the wing area, and do it well.

            I'd be ok with trading Foster to acquire that player as my first choice however....2 separate trades for 2 players who can do this well also would be a great idea.

            JMO

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

              The thing is we have had two guys who post, in Artest and JO. Neither could pass out of the post. JO has gotten better, I don't know about Al. You miss Reggie on this too, he could feed the post every time because you had to play right up on him. The high/low is what makes sense, either Al or JO can play it.

              What has killed recent teams is that the offense is so mechanical and they forget to make basketball plays because the are trying to run Carlise's offense, then teams take that away and they still force whatever set they are running instead of making them pay for over playing the low post.


              It's simple basketball, you should love when you would get double teamed, someone is open, as a point guard you should TRY to get double teamed.

              My point is, it is Xs and Os, but its reading situation and taking advantage of it.

              That's where I hope this goes, Rick backs off, the guys like each other and want to make each other better.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

                As for the feeding the post part, I think the guy that will really fill in that role is Marquis. He's excellent at dumping the ball inside.

                I think Al and Marquis will really benifit from the other.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

                  I agree with the "HIGH/LOW" part alot....I bet you RC has been coming up with new ways to get the ball to the high post area, so we can have a high low game to feed the ball to the block, especially since I think we have a weakness in getting it inside from the wing area.

                  Some of the easiest ways to create a high/low situation is to have your bigs screen for each other in some form or fashion.....a "cross-screen and roll back high post", a "flare screen" by the low post guy to the high post guy so he can drift to the short corner and feed it from there, and even some "big on big" screen roll situations like the Spurs run from the foul line area are all good ways our 3 primary bigs (JO, Al, David) can feed the ball to one another.

                  Really emphasizing the high low game is a great coaching strategy not used enough in the NBA enough in my view, and is one RC will DEFINITELY have to go to alot with our current roster.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

                    Originally posted by Isaac@Section216 View Post
                    As for the feeding the post part, I think the guy that will really fill in that role is Marquis. He's excellent at dumping the ball inside.

                    I think Al and Marquis will really benifit from the other.

                    Im not sure I agree with that analysis, but I hope you are correct. I havent personally seen Daniels play enough to really criticize him in this area yet, but from purely a statistical viewpoint it seems like his lack of perimeter threat would let teams really back off him, and therefore make him a LIABILTY in throwing it inside to a post guy, not a strength....id certainly recommend playing way off him and not letting him drive if I was coaching the opponent.

                    Imagine how hard it would be for Daniels to feed the post inside if say....Teyshaun Prince was guarding him. Prince's long arms and ability to back off Daniels would make it almost impossible to get it inside in that scenario.

                    Now I can see Daniels being able to drive from the top, draw the defense to him in the paint, and THEN be able to pass to Al/JO/David.....and I can see where a great shooting perimeter big man like Dirk would mask a problem throwing it inside, but we dont have a player like Dirk for him to throw the ball to.

                    This is where Bird can really help us, if he can identify this hidden skill from somewhere in the league and acquire the guy or 2 who has it. Nobody ever in basketball was better than feeding the post than Larry Bird was from the wing area.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

                      I've actually watched Daniels play a lot, I watched Dallas a lot this season.

                      Marquis is very crafty with the ball whether it be handling it or passing it. He makes smart passes and is very good at penetrating too.

                      I think we'll see a lot of Marquis or Jamaal penetrating the defense and dumping to Al or Jermaine when the defense collapses.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

                        Originally posted by Isaac@Section216 View Post
                        I've actually watched Daniels play a lot, I watched Dallas a lot this season.

                        Marquis is very crafty with the ball whether it be handling it or passing it. He makes smart passes and is very good at penetrating too.

                        I think we'll see a lot of Marquis or Jamaal penetrating the defense and dumping to Al or Jermaine when the defense collapses.

                        I hope you are correct, and think you probably are......but we are discussing two very different basketball situations here. Driving into the lane, drawing defenders, then giving it to JO/Al/David isnt the same thing as passing the ball to a post player who is sealing off his man while you are located on a wing and being guarded as well.

                        First scenario= Stength of Tinsley and Daniels
                        Second scenario= I guess we will have to wait and see, but I think we need to worry about that some.

                        JMO

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

                          Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                          I promised someone I'd post my Harrington thoughts when I joined this forum after he was officially ours. With this much time between the rumors of his interest in returning here and now, Ive had lots of time to put together my thoughts from a strategic perspective on how we might best use, what we need to do to compliment and get the most out of him, and what we need to do still coverup the things that Harrington doesnt bring us. Im going to do his offensive game first as I see it, and Ill do defense at a later time.

                          First, the positives.....and there are many. Harrington gives us a great second option in the low post to score. In the past, we've been a team that has had basically one player only who could score with any type consistency with his back to the basket, and now we have two. Harrington is a legitimate go to player on the block most of the time, especially if the matchups dictate him being guarded by a smaller player. I actually disagree a little bit with the consensus that Al starts at the inside with JO and 3 perimeter players, but we will have to see how it works out. I view Harrington as a big post up asset against most "3" men in the league, and most of the backup "4" men.

                          Having a legitimate post up threat in the game at all times will be a drastic upgrade for us, in the 12-15 minutes per game JO isnt in there. This should eliminate many of the long long scoring droughts we often have, as we will always have Harrington to give the ball to to score on the block or get to the line.

                          Because I think that, its key for our second unit to always have one of these 2 players in the game with them. I wouldnt look for Harrington and O'Neal to be on the floor together as much as you might think. I would assume we'd start each half with them in, and play the last 7 minutes or so with them in together....otherwise you'll probably see one or the other in there, but not both. I see a scenario where Al starts, comes out after about 7 minutes, rests til the end of the quarter, then starts the second quarter as a sub for JO.

                          When JO and Harrington are in the game together, I love the flexibilty to Harringtons game. He has really improved his ballhandling, and especially his outside shot. What I love the most about how Al plays and how he fits in for us is that he can post up even with JO in the game with him, and that enables JO to drift to the high post or short corner alot. I love using JO as a cutter, having him sets screens and then flashing to the ball, involving him in "ballscreen" situations, and overall using him in a much more dynamic and fluid way. His offensive rebounding should improve by a couple boards a night, simply because he wont be doubled as much, and he'll be crashing the boards with much more energy and vigor, knowing we arent totally screwed if he gets in foul trouble. Also, the fact that he wont be taking the shot on the block means he will have more freedom to rebound on the offensive end....its hard to get an offensive board when you are the one taking a turnaround jumper with 2 guys on you or near you.

                          If JO has his jump shot from 12-15 feet going, the Pacers might have the most dynamic and effective inside out combo offensively in the league. I think it will be important for the Pacers to run alot of high/low stuff to utilize these guys in the best fashion.....and to be able to enter the ball to the low post more effectively.

                          The effect of having Harrington also provides us big insurance in case JO goes down with injury, and theoretically should allow RC to cut JO's minutes back slightly to around 32 minutes per game, which is what I definitely think we should do. In that way we can keep him fresher and healthier hopefully for the entire season.

                          Now, we are going to have to figure out a way to put Harrington, Oneal, and Harrison in the game at the same time, and figure out a way to play offensively with that grouping in there. That group really tilts the matchups in Harrington's favor, as he is a physical nightmare for most 3 men inside. If I was to be asked Id recommend a "2 out-3in" type offense so we can play a "jumbo" lineup like this....where you have Harrison serving primarily as a screener for both Harrington and Oneal in any area below the foul line....this would be my favorite front court for the Pacers actually, and I hope I get to see it. (Before you ask where is Danny....I love the idea of Granger as a perimeter player, and guarding the opponents best guard....Im one of the guys who thinks he can guard a Ray Allen, Rip Hamilton, Gilbert Arenas, and such people...JMO)



                          OK, now the negatives:

                          Al is not a great "creator" off the dribble. More than likely if Harrington drives to the bucket, its to score himself, not to dish to anyone else. The Pacers lack of shooters will mean opposing teams will mean teams will really sag off of our perimeter guys, and that might make life difficult for Harrington, as he will have alot of traffic in the paint to see that he didnt have in Atlanta with Joe Johnson standing on the wing.

                          Along with the lack of shooters, a real huge problem we have right now is though we have 2 very good post up threats, we don't have anyone very good at throwing the ball to them while posting up. That will likely cause a few different problems if it isnt addressed....it makes your post guy vacate his area and drift outside further away from the goal, making him easier to defend and double.....it makes the offense slow down as the passer struggles to get the ball in to the post, and then slow down again as the post player has to make dribble moves to score. As much as I love Daniels and what he might bring us, he wont be able to enter the ball to the post very well, as he is a poor shooter and therefore his man will sag in on our post guys.....our entire team is filled with guys who will struggle in this area, and thats bad news if your 2 best offensive threats are primarily post up guys.

                          Not because we need a 3 point specialist, but because we need someone to throw the ball inside and to hit the occasional 3 point shot as a trailer on the fast break, our roster still needs some additions. At this point, you can't trade Jackson, because he still is our best 3 point shooter and popst feeder we have, although he isnt good enough at either to be the best on a championship level team. Our best chip at this point to get a player like that is probably Foster.....if we can find a team who possibly was weak last year on the glass and could use a "speciality" player like he ideally is.

                          In summary, Harrington is a huge offensive upgrade, and will be even bigger of a help if we can acquire a perimeter player who can feed the post, or even 2 if we can pull it off. With the roster the way it is right now, id say we are a mid to upper 40's win team, with the ability to go over 50 if we stay healthy and add where I think we need to add to.

                          JMO


                          Great post.One thing for sure is adding Al gives us the luxury to try out different lineups. Like you mentioned we can go big with Harrison/Oneal/Harrington starting in the front court and then we could turn around and play more uptempo with Oneal,Granger,Daniels.Just so many options.I also wonder if Rick Carlise has the creativity to use these different types of lineups to our advantage.

                          Its going to be interesting to see if we can add a guard in the mix like Mike Miller.If we could do that it will be one hell of a offseason.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

                            When JONeal and Harrington are on the floor together....do you see Harrington as the SF or PF?

                            Although many of us would wish that we would primarily see a Granger-SF/Harrington-PF/JONeal-C lineup...I suspect that we would likely see a Harrington-SF/JONeal-PF/Foster-C lineup for the very reasons that you bring up about Harrington providing a very solid low-post threat against smaller SF.

                            About having a legit 3pt threat.....I would think that SJax...being one of our best 3pt scorers ( not shooters )....he would likely become a better 3rd scoring option that JONeal and/or Harrington can kick the ball out to. As D4G have continually said...which I agree with...is that he is a much better 3rd scoring option then he is a 2nd scoring option. Who knows? Given our lack of 3pt scoring/shooting....players like JONeal and Harrington may draw enough attention on the offense to make players like SJax and Sarunas more effective from the 3pt line.

                            BTW....good post.
                            Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Coaching strategy: Analyzing Harrington's strengths and weaknesses: Offense

                              Originally posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
                              I hope you are correct, and think you probably are......but we are discussing two very different basketball situations here. Driving into the lane, drawing defenders, then giving it to JO/Al/David isnt the same thing as passing the ball to a post player who is sealing off his man while you are located on a wing and being guarded as well.

                              First scenario= Stength of Tinsley and Daniels
                              Second scenario= I guess we will have to wait and see, but I think we need to worry about that some.

                              JMO
                              I understand what you're saying completely. My only real point was that we will have ways of getting JO and Al the ball effectively even if it isn't the traditional "dump it in to the post" strategy.

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