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Thread: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I'll send them up to photobucket at full, but won't post the pix here and kill b'width.

    edit - hold on. P'bucket resizes them. I'll have to do a Yahoo upload later. Gotta go cook dinner.
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  2. #27

    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    I like Foster too. I can only come up with a few possible conclusions. First, if he hits mid-range jumpers in pre-game warm-ups, but cannot connect during a real game, then either he will never get used to hitting shots under pressure or he could use the services of a sports psychologist. Or...he needs to practice more. The idea of a near-7 footer not being able to hit more than 50% of his free throws or freezing like a deer in headlights (like last year), when folks left him open almost daring him to shoot makes me scratch my head and disappoints me. I'm 43 and under 6 feet tall, and just made 50% of my mid-range jumpers in the competitive division of the 3-on-3 tournament at the State Fair yesterday. I recall this because I only took 4 shots. I don't shoot much any more (I dish to my much younger teammates), but when I do shoot, I'm confident, because I do go out and shoot around by myself when I can. It's natural for anyone to shoot better during practice when the pressure is not on, and no, I'm not implying that the level of competition was anywhere near that of the NBA, but what I am implying is that with practice or the right help (be it physical or psychological), a 7-footer should be able to at least be a scoring "threat." Opposing teams are never going to put their best defender on Foster. He should learn to take shots when he's open. That's my wish for Jeff this season.

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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Just reading this thread, one would think Jeff must have a horrible shooting %. So I looked up the stats

    starting with this past season and going backwards.

    ------- -FG% - FT%
    2006 - 55% - 60%
    2005 - 52% - 63%
    2004 - 54% - 70%
    2003 - 36% - 54%
    2002 - 45% - 61%
    2001 - 47% - 52%


    2003 he didn't play that much. Brad was still here and Isiah was the coach. He played quite a bit more in 2002. What does all this mean, I don't really know, but I thought it needed to be added to the discussion. If I had never watched a Pacers game and only read this thread, I would have expected FT % in the 45-50% range and FG % certainly below 50%.

  4. #29
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Just reading this thread, one would think Jeff must have a horrible shooting %. So I looked up the stats

    starting with this past season and going backwards.

    ------- -FG% - FT%
    2006 - 55% - 60%
    2005 - 52% - 63%
    2004 - 54% - 70%
    2003 - 36% - 54%
    2002 - 45% - 61%
    2001 - 47% - 52%


    2003 he didn't play that much. Brad was still here and Isiah was the coach. He played quite a bit more in 2002. What does all this mean, I don't really know, but I thought it needed to be added to the discussion. If I had never watched a Pacers game and only read this thread, I would have expected FT % in the 45-50% range and FG % certainly below 50%.


    I would not be surprised if 90% of his shots were layups and dunks. Would anyone argue that it's at least 70% of his shots? Rarely does he take anything that isn't at the basket, be it a garbage putback, backdoor, whatever. Everything is at the hoop. And most of them would be mostly unchallenged since if he wasn't open at the hoop he wouldn't have the ball. Few and far between are his shots from farther out.

    Therefore, I'd argue that his percentages aren't all that good for a guy only taking supposedly the highest of percentage type shots.

    Maybe I'm wrong...

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  5. #30
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    And most of them would be mostly unchallenged
    I'd disagree with this. Foster rarely gets unchallenged shots.

  6. #31
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I would not be surprised if 90% of his shots were layups and dunks. Would anyone argue that it's at least 70% of his shots? Rarely does he take anything that isn't at the basket, be it a garbage putback, backdoor, whatever. Everything is at the hoop. And most of them would be mostly unchallenged since if he wasn't open at the hoop he wouldn't have the ball. Few and far between are his shots from farther out.

    Therefore, I'd argue that his percentages aren't all that good for a guy only taking supposedly the highest of percentage type shots.

    Maybe I'm wrong...

    -Bball
    He doesn't get many open shots, in fact most of his offensive rebound putbacks are very challenged.

    I thought it would be interesting to see what other similar type players shoot. These are just their career averages FG%.

    Bo Outlaw - 56%
    Ben Wallace 48%
    Danny Fortson - 47%
    Dale Davis - 53%

    Bo Outlaw is probably most like Jeff. My only point is shooting around 55% for the type of shots Jeff gets is not out of line with other players who get similar shots. Bball to hear you describe the shots that Jeff gets you would think he should shoot 70%, but no one does that.

    Let me make one other point that I've been making for years. So many of you say that Jeff is never guarded. That is only partially true. Sure he's not guarded 15 feet from the basket. But he sure is guarded near the basket and as soon as the ball is shot teams scramble to block Jeff out. The Nets often had two guys on Jeff in rebounding situations. Jeff is gameplanned against and the few times he isn't he gets 16-18 rebounds.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by able View Post
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    nay matter, you have my blessing upload away
    Okay, over at Yahoo instead where you have to download each to have full resolution. Just a shot of the arena outside and in to give an idea of how dead it was and how much there wasn't about to be a Harrington announcement.

    Then 3 of Foster. I didn't want to linger and didn't bring the 80-200mm to get in close. Plus, while it was overcast I still was catching a big reflection obviously.

    http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/lilset...?.dir=/851ascd

  8. #33

    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Many thanks to Uncle Buck for looking up Foster's stats from the past few years. Perhaps I was biased by what I perceived to be a tailing off toward the latter part of the past season. It just seemed that whenever I watched games during the latter half of the season, he just wasn't doing that well offensively, but especially at the line.

    I'm not saying that the guy does not practice or does not work hard in the offseason, but there are many athletes, both stars and "commons" (as we refer to them in the sports card collecting arena) that are or were noted for their work ethic during the offseason. I guess if I heard that he'd spent all off-season practicing his free throws, I would be content. People should always want to get better in what they are doing, whether you are a doctor, lawyer, bricklayer or basketball player.

  9. #34

    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    It really bugs me when people ***** about Jeff not being able to score and how he should have some kind of offenseive weapon by now. Anyone ever heard of a role player? One who plays best WITHOUT the ball? No he isn't Brad Miller or Bill Laimbeer or some offenseively gifted center. Jeff Foster is Jeff Foster and that is a blue coller worker. One who hustles his *** off which leads to many many rebounds. Not a bad defender but he is limited to how well he can defend due to lack of great size and strength for his position.

    I think Jeff gets a lot of crap for not being able to shoot/score due to the fact that he replaced Brad and Brad was a complament to Jermaine. No Jeff is not Brad but Jeff is still not a bad player to have starting regardless of his lack of offenseive game.

    Jeff is a roleplayer and let me spell out for you r-o-l-e-p-l-a-y-e-r and so I hope you know that this means that he isn't an all star and most roleplayers are not complete players but they are still good. I actually like having a guy like Jeff playing next to Jermaine because I am a big believer in team chemistry and players having roles....which means I don't like a team with a bunch of players who need the ball in their hands to play well and contribute. Jeff doesn't need the ball.

    People should really think that if Jeff was a more polished player offenseively you probably wouldn't see as much hustle or rebounding out of him. It's much easier to focus on a couple of things on the court as opposed to several things. I found this out from just playing pickup games. I was a pretty good defender and I could rebound well despite my lack of height but over the years I wanted to score more and be able to shoot, I looked for my shot more. Well that made me loose my focus on defense (i had less energy to use there and such) and I was not getting rebounds either because I was more concerned with scroing. This happened to me and I observed this myself playing stupid pickup games with friends. I bet you the odds are something similar would happen to Jeff. You may laugh at this paragraphy but it's true.

    To put it simple if Jeff developed an offenseive game he is likely to be less productive in the defense/rebounding/hustle department.

  10. #35
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    My point was that nobody was getting the ball to Foster and expecting him to carve out a basket so he's not shooting into a defense trying to stop him. And he doesn't take hardly any shots that aren't at the rim so that isn't going to drive his percentage down (shots from outside). Mostly, he beats his man/somebody loses/ignores him and he gets a pass for an open layup/dunk or he's getting a putback off of someone elses miss. I don't remember many of those being highly contested. Maybe there's a scrum for the rebound but that's only part of it. Not every Foster basket attempt is a putback.

    And while you may not consider him wide open, he certainly has gotten enough daylight to make layups and missed them more than most... leaving fans shaking their heads on how he missed the bunny...again.

    -Bball
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    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Jeff is gameplanned against and the few times he isn't he gets 16-18 rebounds.
    Case in point, Jeff went for 20 rebounds in the win at Detroit in 2005 game 2. Game 3 they made a better effort but he still grabbed 13 so they really clamped down and made and effort to reduce his impact even further, which helped swing the series back to their control.

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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Role players are all-around players that accept a role.

    Role players are not one-dimensional players.

    I always argued that Dale Davis was such a bad shooter that he could only hit 50% of his putbacks and dunks.

    Haven't you guy seen the threads I'll occasionally post after an 'alleged' good rebouding game.

    There was one game a couple seasons ago in which Jeff was 2-10 with seven offensive rebounds. And every offensive rebound except one came from rebounding his own miss.

    One should subtract missed-putbacks from the offensive rebounding totals for a guy like Foster who stuffs his own stat sheet because of his ineptness at finishing the play.

    When Jeff remembers that he can't finish and gives the ball back to the PG to re-set the offense, that's about the only time his offensive rebounds even mean anything. Other than getting the fans pumped up with a false sense of hope because he's giving 'great effort.' Followed by an exasperates sigh when the other team finally controls on of his misses.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  13. #38

    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204 View Post
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    Role players are all-around players that accept a role.

    Role players are not one-dimensional players.
    Wrong.

    Role players don't have to be able to defend, shoot, rebound, pass, etc. They can but few do.

    Please name some role plays for me that are complete players...and i'm talking about PF/C players and not SG/SFs. I'd like to see that list because off the top of my head I don't think that would be a long list at all.

  14. #39

    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    I think what Jeff suffers from is a lack of confidence. Watch him in preseason, he takes a few of those short jumpers and hits a surprising amount of them. It's like he views the jumper as something for screwing around with before the season starts or something. The fact that his form is good combined with his history as a guard in HS only reinforces this idea for me. I think Jeff Foster will start hitting jumpers when Jeff Foster decides that he can hit it and doesn't care what JO thinks about him taking some of his shots

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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie View Post
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    Wrong.

    Role players don't have to be able to defend, shoot, rebound, pass, etc. They can but few do.

    Please name some role plays for me that are complete players...and i'm talking about PF/C players and not SG/SFs. I'd like to see that list because off the top of my head I don't think that would be a long list at all.
    I'd rather go the other direction - name some one-dimensional players that are championship-caliber role players.

    I can only think of one - Ben Wallace. IMO, Rodman was much more versatile but made a conscious effort to focus on just two or three things.

    In other words, if you've got a one-dimensional role player they pretty much need to be the very best in the league at doing what they do (if not one of the very best of all time at doing what they do.)

    Joe Smith, Derrick McKey, Ron Harper, and Danny Manning are great examples of what I want a role player to be. Guys that can do it all but make sacrifices. Even Danny Ferry and Steve Kerr fit that bill, as younger players against less-athletic competition they could 'do it all'.

    Hell, look at Miami's role players this season. Walker - for all his annoying-ness, is very, very versatile. I've thought Posey was a poor-man's Derrick McKey since his days in Denver. He doesn't do any one thing great, and his primary job is toughness and defense, but he can do many other things. Gary Payton was really just a role player at this stage of his career. And the DWade fans would even argue that Shaq was nothing more than a role player at this stage of his career, too. And yes, it took a motivational master like Pat Riley to get them all to accept their roles.

    The difference is, when you take a player like Ron Harper and force him out of his "role", he is not a liability to his team. He could score in bunches if he wanted to, and proved it in Cleveland and LA, but in Chicago he was most famous for his defense.

    As we've seen Detroit do to Foster many teams, he can be 'gameplanned' right out of a playoff series whenever they wanted to. How can you 'gameplan' a role player off the court? Exploit the fact that they are one dimensional.

    If you heard me out, I realize I didn't answer your question. I don't have a list of (current) big-man role players on the top of my head. I'd have to watch some games. But I'm happy to revisit this discussion during the season.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #41
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204 View Post
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    The difference is, when you take a player like Ron Harper and force him out of his "role", he is not a liability to his team. He could score in bunches if he wanted to, and proved it in Cleveland and LA, but in Chicago he was most famous for his defense.
    Harper was an elite scorer, entering into the NBA too. He was the MAC all-time scoring champ, until Bonzi came along.

    Role players accept a role. They aren't pigeon-holed that role, because their lack of ability to do anything else.

    There's a name for Jeff Foster, and it's called one-dimensional.

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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204 View Post
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    If you heard me out, I realize I didn't answer your question. I don't have a list of (current) big-man role players on the top of my head. I'd have to watch some games. But I'm happy to revisit this discussion during the season.

    I agree with Jay here, mostly. Bruce Bowen is one example of a truly "one-dimensional" role player (defense) that is effective. But there really aren't that many. And even he can hit a baseline three when he's open.

    Even the people you might think of as "specialists" like Robert Horry, Raja Bell or Lindsey Hunter are very capable in other aspects of the game. They just choose to do what it is that their team needs. If you are indeed a "specialist" like Foster is, then you need to be damned good at that specialty in order to have much of a real impact on your team's W/L record. Even specialist's on the level of Tyson Chandler aren't really impacting the game all that much. You really need to be a Dikembe, Steve Kerr or Dennis Rodman level of excellence at one thing if you are one dimensional to really be a big asset to your team, IMO.

    Other good role players of the "Ron Harper" mold that jump to mind are Dan Marjele, Toni Kukoc, Xavier McDaniel, Anthony Mason and Gerald Wilkens. These guys were all complete players that sacrificed parts of their game in order for the team to suceed.

    As for current Bigs that fit this mold, I'd say Udonis Haslem is the posterboy. He brings everything to the table that Jeff does--grittiness, rebounding, tenacity, toughness--but can also hit the jumper and score on occasion out of the post. He is also a capable passer and someone you can include in a screen/roll.

    Other versatile big men role players:

    Drew Gooden
    Erick Dampier
    Kurt Thomas
    Juwan Howard
    PJ Brown
    Jamal Magloire
    Malik Rose
    Ryan Gomes
    Matt Harpring
    Nick Collison
    Darius Songalia
    Kenny Thomas
    Luke Walton
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  18. #43
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Jay - your whole premise is just wrong. First of all Jeff is not one-dimensional. Unless you consider defense, rebounding and all out 100% hustle as one-dimensional. In fact Jeff has two more dimensions than several NBA players.

    Oh and the all out hustle thing is a real skill, very few players do it, very few players can do it and even fewer choose to do it.

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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Jay - your whole premise is just wrong. First of all Jeff is not one-dimensional. Unless you consider defense, rebounding and all out 100% hustle as one-dimensional. In fact Jeff has two more dimensions than several NBA players.

    Oh and the all out hustle thing is a real skill, very few players do it, very few players can do it and even fewer choose to do it.
    I believe you were talking to the other Jay, but I for one don't consider all out hustle a major skill. It's a plus, but it's not something that should have you starting in the NBA. Eduardo Najera, Brian Scalabrine and Eddie House also give you all-out hustle whenever they are on the court. It doesn't mean they are bringing extra Wins to their teams. It means it's something they have to do every minute that they are on the court in order to continue getting an NBA paycheck. They can't get by on talent because they don't have much.

    Is that better than the reverse type of player? The Tim Thomas syndrome? Yes, probably. But a below-average talent that tries as hard as possible to make himself an average-talent is still an average NBA player. It looks better than an above-average talent like Tim Thomas playing lackidasically to become a average player, but the end result is the same: Average. Or mediocre if you prefer the term.

    His defense is nothing special either. More mediocrity.
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Jay - your whole premise is just wrong. First of all Jeff is not one-dimensional. Unless you consider defense, rebounding and all out 100% hustle as one-dimensional. In fact Jeff has two more dimensions than several NBA players.

    Oh and the all out hustle thing is a real skill, very few players do it, very few players can do it and even fewer choose to do it.
    There are very few players Foster actually matches up with. It just happens that one of those is considered the leagues best PF.

    Everything he does is pure hustle, and that's his dimension. He's not a good "rebounder," because fundamentally he's awful at it. He's too weak to guard post players, and not capable to guard smaller/quicker players.

  21. #46
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    I think most people that dislike Jeff has nothing to do with Jeff, its our
    coach.

    Rick insist on using putting 2 pf on the floor none of which are true center or
    aggressive by nature in their defense. I don't mean to say Jeff doesn't
    like to defend its more of a dominating the big dog on the other team thing.
    He and JO simply can not play that way.

    I would love Jeff to play the backup pf on the Pacers but not the starting
    Center or the PF on our current team. If JO was 7''0 and played like
    Dwight Howard than sure we could play Jeff as the starting PF but JO
    isn't like that and Jeff does not work with our current roster.

  22. #47
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    There are very few players Foster actually matches up with. It just happens that one of those is considered the leagues best PF.

    Everything he does is pure hustle, and that's his dimension. He's not a good "rebounder," because fundamentally he's awful at it. He's too weak to guard post players, and not capable to guard smaller/quicker players.
    See... if I'd ever "shut up" long enough to let others type I'd be able to see just how smart some of the rest of you are.

    Perfect.

    Just to fan the flames a bit more, I don't consider "rebounding" to be its own dimension. Its important, don't get me wrong. But there are only two dimensions, offense and defense, and rebounding falls inside those two.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  23. #48
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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    way i look at foster he a 8 points 12 rebounds player good and bad in a way..

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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    I'm shocked at how many of you are underestimating the value of energy players and the impact energy players have on a team. It rubs off on the other players. Why are coaches often bemoaning the lack of energy players, Jeff Van Gundy has been *****ing about it for 3 years now as coach of the Rockets.

    To suggest Foster's defense is mediocre?, and that he can't guard smaller and quicker players is absolute blasphemy and really, really off base. Absurd.

    I'll repeat what I have said in the past, IMO Foster is one of the very best one-on-one defenders in the NBA against small and quick centers and the mobile power forwards.

    Criticize Jeff offense if you want, criticize his ability to guard really big strong centers (the NBA currently has about 3 of these) if you want, but to suggest he can't guard smaller and quicker players is just absurd. I can't express how much I disagree with that notion. .

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    Default Re: Why Hasnít Foster Developed Offensive Game? Q.O.D 8-14-06

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204 View Post
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    I don't consider "rebounding" to be its own dimension. Its important, don't get me wrong. But there are only two dimensions, offense and defense, and rebounding falls inside those two.


    Wait a minute. Do you realize what you've done. You've just admitted that about half of the current NBA allstars are one-dimensional. If that is the case, fine with me, Jeff is right in that group than, as a one-dimensional player

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