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Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

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  • #16
    Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

    Greene's draft express profile sounds great but does mention a need to improve his handle:

    http://www.draftexpress.com/viewprof...od=pprof&p=440

    Name:Orien Greene
    Height:6' 5"
    Weight:210 pounds
    Previous Team: La Lafayette , Senior
    Drafted: #53 in 2005 Draft by Celtics
    NBA Position:PG
    Date of Birth:2/4/1982 (24 Years Old)
    High School:Gainesville High School
    Hometown:Gainesville, FL
    Earliest Draft Class:2005
    Current Position:PG
    Possible Positions:PG/SG
    Best Case Scenario:Keyon Dooling (Improved Miami Version)
    Worst Case Scenario:Tito Maddox
    Profile Written By:Jonathan Givony
    Last Updated:4/14/2005

    Strengths:
    An extremely unique prospect in this draft, one of a kind in terms of the size, skills, athleticism and talent he possesses at his position.

    Greene is a 6-5 pass-first PG with outstanding athletic ability, a great wingspan and fantastic skills on the defensive end. His physical attributes alone should get him quite a few looks, as he is built extremely well and has all the size, strength and length you could ask for from a player at his position.

    Greene has been playing the PG position his entire life except for his two seasons in Gainesville and appears to have very good instincts at the position. He played for probably the best mid-major team you never heard of or saw on TV, a superb group of talented athletes that came very close to knocking off a Final Four team in Louisville in the NCAA tournament. Watching him play it's hard not to think what a talent he is, and you have to wonder what might have been had things fallen his way in the luck department since he graduated from high school. Those who followed high school basketball 5-6 years ago will remember that Greene was considered one of the most talented players in the nation at his position (a top 30 recruit) and was named Mr. Basketball in the state of Florida after putting up one of the most impressive senior years of any Florida player in years, helping to lead a no-name team from Gainesville to back to back state titles.

    Defensively is where he excels the most right now, and he was named the Sun Belt defensive player of the year two years in a row to back that up, despite playing on one leg for most of the last season. His lateral movement is superb and his hands are excellent, he can guard both the 1 and the 2 positions and has the ability to stay in front of pretty much any PG in the country. He has an uncanny knack for anticipating steals and getting in the passing lanes, and has been on the right end of numerous breakaways to finish with an emphatic dunk thanks to this skill. Greene is excellent at putting pressure on the ball, and is very good at sticking his hand in just the right spot to pick his opponent's pocket and come up with the steal. He has no problem getting dirty to help out his team, and will put his body in the right place to draw the offensive foul. He is an excellent rebounder for his position, averaging close to 5 rebounds per game

    In terms of his playmaking skills, he is as mentioned an extremely unselfish, pass-first PG. His court vision is above average (better than his best NBA comparison--Keyon Dooling), and certainly good enough to get by as a backup on most NBA teams. He is good at putting the ball where his teammates like it, knows how to find the open man, and is probably at his best when he is making the simple, but efficient bounce pass for an easy lay-up. His ability to get in the lane make him a very good drive and dish threat. In transition is where Greene really excels. He has very good speed in the open court, and shows much better decision making skills than in the half-court, where he is still a bit rough around the edges. He plays on a team that loves to get up and down the floor, and when Greene is focused (on) and playing within himself, he can push the tempo and his team can run with the best of them.

    Offensively, he can create his own shot, although he has a tendency to get ahead of himself and try to do a little too much. His shooting is probably better than his numbers would indicate--he is by no means a great shooter--but he can knock down the open three if you give him space. He is more of a rhythm shooter, I've seen him knock down threes from close to NBA range during games, but he has a long ways to go in this area despite being adequate on the catch and shoot. He can pull-up from mid-range off the dribble or use his size to post up his man and muscle his way to the hoop, a nice skill to have considering that he'll always be bigger and stronger than his matchup at any level he plays at.

    Basketball is clearly something that is in Greene's blood, as he's been playing the game from a very young age. He is very smart without the ball and really knows how to pick his spots. Thanks to his outstanding athletic ability, he is excellent at making good sharp cuts towards the basket and he changes directions quickly. He's an extremely fluid athlete with good quickness, a very nice first step and a terrific vertical leap. Once his ball-handling gets a little better, he'll most likely be exceptionally quick with the ball in his hands as well, as he is already very quick without it.

    Off the court, despite the hardships he has been through, he is described by his coaching staff at Lafayette as a quiet kid and solid citizen with an outstanding attitude who is well respected by his teammates.

    Once you get outside of the top 5 PG's (Paul, Felton, D-Williams, Jarrett Jack, Roko Leni-Ukic) he has about as much upside as any of the PG's in this draft.

    Weaknesses:
    Probably his biggest weaknesses and something that he will have to get better at if he is going to have any chance of being drafted is his outside shot. His mechanics need work, as his left elbow flails out to the side every time he spots up (think of Josh Childress, although it's his left elbow, not his right, and it isn't quite as pronounced). He shot a poor percentage from both the field (39%) and from behind the arc (32.4%) although he was actually quite respectable the year before that (45% and 36%).

    What's most likely the biggest reason for that is the fact that Greene is still quite a raw player in many facets of the game despite his age (he recently turned 23). He has a tendency to force the issue at times, as his assist to turnover ratio (4.0 to 3.3) would attest. He is often out of control driving to the hoop, forcing his way to the basket and struggling to make good decisions with the ball in his hands, especially in terms of his shot selection. At times Greene appears to have an outstanding feel for the game, and then on the next possession he will make a bone-headed move that will make you scratch your head (Florida fans have yet to forgive him for failing to call a timeout and getting called for a five second call on an inbounds play in the last minute of double overtime in their eventual loss to Creighton in the 2002 NCAA tournament). Consistency is a major issue for Orien, he has problems maintaining his focus mentally over a span of 40 minutes, especially when fatigue is involved. This was a bigger issue (fatigue) than it should have been, as Lafayette is not a deep team and Greene played for much of the season coming off a bad injury that would have held most players out for the entire year.

    His ball-handling is good enough for the college level, but will have to get stronger to play the point in the NBA, as his handle is a bit loose at times.

    In general Greene is a little rough around the edges in many aspects, but his age might turn off some NBA types.

    Competition:
    Greene appeared to be on his way for a breakout season until he broke his leg when his team went to play Kansas on the road. He decided to rush himself back and was back on the court after sitting out one month and only 6 games, playing for the rest of the season at less than full strength. His team won 14 of their last 17 games after he returned, and made the NCAA tournament for the third straight year, Greene's fourth trip in his four years (with two different teams) to the Big Dance. In the tournament itself Greene was a complete non-factor because of foul trouble. He got called for three questionable offensive fouls, and ended up only playing 18 minutes in that game.

    Greene played his basketball in the Sun-Belt conference, a mid tier mid-major conference whose best teams beside Lafayette include Denver (home of another prospect you'll be hearing a lot about next year, Yemi Nicholson), Arkansas Little Rock (Derek Fisher's alma matter) and Western Kentucky. Lafayette went 11-4 in this conference and absolutely destroyed anyone who stood in their way in their conference tournament (winning their three games by a combined 44 points) while clinching a spot in the NCAA tournament.

    Greene sat out the 2002-2003 season after transferring from the University of Florida.

    Was recruited by Billy Donovan to play at the University of Florida and spent his first two seasons in college there. His father was facing major legal issues (to say the least) and Greene struggled in the classroom before eventually transferring to Lafayette. His two seasons at Florida will not be remembered as anything that special. He was played at the SF position (Brett Nelson and Justin Hamilton both got the nods at the two guard spots because of seniority) and failed to make a huge impact for his team while playing out of position, despite starting for Florida in every game his sophomore year.

    Outlook:
    Automatically eligible as a graduating senior. A 2nd round pick at best, with a more than decent shot at going undrafted. Really depends on how he does in workouts, how he positions himself in this draft, and whether or not players will be willing to work out against him.

    Comments:
    Everybody has their favorite sleeper prospects in the draft, and I may have just found one of mine, thanks to the coaching staff at Louisiana Lafayette, who made sure to provide me with all the tapes and info I needed to make sure he gets a look (nudge nudge mid-major schools for next year). Whether or not he will get a shot to make the league is anyone's guess, but I could see a quiet buzz developing around Orien once he starts working out for teams and showing off his unique package of skills and considerable upside. Matt Bonner and Udonis Haslem (two former Florida Gators who had to take a back route into the league and are now on their way to big NBA paydays) have both been quoted saying that Greene was by far the best player on the court every time they played a pickup game together. Whether or not that will be enough to get him invited to Chicago (where I personally think he could do extremely well) is anyone's guess. He's at least good enough to get some summer league looks, so hopefully this is not the last time we hear about him. NBA teams could probably do a lot worse drafting late in the 2nd round. He has some skills that are reminiscint of Marquis Daniels when he was at Auburn.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).

    Comment

    • #17
      Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

      Originally posted by McKeyFan
      Could Runi become the starter next year (at some point?).

      This train of thought started after considering the fab four being discussed at present:

      JO
      Al
      Danny
      Quis

      If Runi is on that squad, I have at least two questions:

      1. Do the other four have the ability to make up for Runi's defensive liabilities?

      2. Does Quis provide as good (or even better) ball handling/creating skills at two guard, like Freddy did, to help Runi in a ball-handling pinch?

      I do think Runi can be the shooting threat we're looking for--with confidence and playing time. He also could work nicely with the other four very athletic players.
      With no disrespect, Sarunas Jasivicius as starting PG on an NBA Caliber play-off team?

      Don't you see why Larry got rid of A.J.? To give Sarunas a chance at back-up PG now A.J. is gone so he can see how much of a bust his "European prospect" is...I hope Sarunas plays very well at the back-up PG position and prove us wrong but let's say Tinsley got hurt, Marquis Daniels should then be the starting PG.

      Sorry to say but Sarunas is one of the worst defenders in the league and does not know how to bring the ball up the court. I would rather have had A.J. than him but this is his chance to prove that even belongs in the NBA. To say he should be starting PG of this team is comical. Tinsley is our starting PG and I am looking forward in him having a healthy season and i'm sure Tinsley will have some nagging injuries where he will be forced to miss a couple of games and that is another time where Sarunas will get a chance at starting PG but Sarunas is not even good enough to hold Tinsley's jock-strap in the lockerroom.

      Comment

      • #18
        Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

        Do I think Cabbage will start this year? Yep, cause it's a statistical improbability that Tinsley will start every game (no matter what people are saying lately), and I'm not sold on Daniels at that position.

        Do I think it's a good thing? Um, no. Hence my Chicken Little impersonation the last couple days.
        Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

        Comment

        • #19
          Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

          I believe Tinsley at 75% healthy is better than Sarunas at 100%, and would love to have Tins start. That said let me know when he gets to 75%, I can't wait
          (seriously)

          My entire point is I don't care if Sarunas starts, comes of the bench or helps us aquire a better starting PG. If he is on this team though, as Bird said he is a 1 not a 2, and if he is your backup fine , no need to bench him for games at a time, if you feel he is really that bad then get rid of him.

          If we are talking about a NBA veteran who has years under his belt and he had a year like last year, it's whole different story I am just trying to keeping it all in proper perspective.

          Why Not Us ?

          Comment

          • #20
            Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

            Originally posted by pacertom
            He needs to improve:

            ballhandling
            decision-making
            shooting
            crossover on offense
            footwork on defense

            That is a lot to ask for in one offseason.

            I think that Jeff Foster will start reliably making three pointers before Sarunas can overcome all of those deficiencies and be an effective 35-minutes-a-game starting PG on a winning NBA team.
            Ballhandling- Yes. Although we did see some considerable improvement throughout the season.

            Decision-making- Really? I think he has a fairly high BBall IQ. He just needs to cut down on the fancy passes when a simple pass will do.

            Shooting- Come on.

            Crossover on offense- Definitely.

            Footwork on defense- Yes, but he doesn't need to be fantastic on defense. Just not a liability. Out of the top eight teams in the NBA last season I'd say that only Chauncey Billups could be considered an elite defensive player as a PG with JKidd and Eric Snow both good but losing a step. The rest; Nash, Terry, Cassell, JWill, Parker are not exactly defensive stalwarts.

            I'd say it's doable. Saras can definitely become a quality backup in the NBA and possibly also a starter (although I'd have to see how he develops before giving him the keys). I definitely wouldn't want to trade him.

            Comment

            • #21
              Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

              Originally posted by rexnom
              Ballhandling- Yes. Although we did some considerable improvement throughout the season.
              Imrovement? Are you joking? It kept getting worse and worse when other teams knew all they had to do was pressure him up the court. It became so bad where we needed A.J. back in the game after 2 mins of Sarunas on the court against the Nets in the playoffs.

              Decision-making- Really? I think he has a fairly high BBall IQ. He just needs to cut down on the fancy passes when a simple pass will do.
              All those turn-overs didn't mean anything right? His decision making isn't the worst of his abilities...the worst of his abilities are his abilities themself (he's just not that talented)

              Shooting- Come on.
              He can make a wide open three with no one covering him and that diminished in thge 2nd half of the season. With a hand in his face, no way he makes a three.

              Crossover on offense- Definitely.
              Affirmative.

              Footwork on defense- Yes, but he doesn't need to be fantastic on defense. Just not a liability. Out of the top eight teams in the NBA last season I'd say that only Chauncey Billups could be considered an elite defensive player as a PG with JKidd and Eric Snow both good but losing a step. The rest; Nash, Terry, Cassell, JWill, Parker are not exactly defensive stalwarts.
              Sarunas doesn't have to be the best defender in the league but on the other side, he is one of the worst defenders in the entire NBA. Sarunas needs to became a defender good enough that doesn't make scrubs like Jacques Vaughn look like Allen Iverson but his defense can't improve that much. Just look at his fragile body.

              I'd say it's doable. Saras can definitely become a quality backup in the NBA and possibly also a starter (although I'd have to see how he develops before giving him the keys). I definitely wouldn't want to trade him.
              I hope Sarunas can become a quality back-up in the NBA but no way he chould be a starter on a play-off team, let alone a lottery team like Toronto...we will see what happens though. Gluck to him.

              Comment

              • #22
                Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                Sarunas has much to prove to even be considered a solid backup PG. He has some terrific tools, but the gaps in his game are so huge it seems unlikely he will be able to close them.

                Comment

                • #23
                  Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                  Originally posted by Destined4Greatness
                  He needs to improve his entire overall game. And become faster. And at the age of 30 or is it 31. I don't see that as happening. He can't bring the ball up under pressure, he yells at his teammates when he screws up. He passes to teammates when they are covered so well that they can't get control and TO the ball, his shot was second worst on the roster only Gill had a worse percentage. And he thinks he is above Defense, He is not a quality player.
                  People, let's get reasonable. Of course Sarunas has flaws, but he isn't that bad as You picture him. You mentioned TO's and shooting. If you compare it with Tinsley, you'll see that his (Runi) TO statistics is much better (1.55 to 2.84). If You compare shooting:
                  Runi - Tinsley
                  FT: .91 .637
                  FG: .396 .409
                  3PT: .364 .229
                  You will see, that Runi is more effective shooter (considering that he is shooting mostly 3 pointers) as his scoring-per-shot is a way higher and FT much better. And he is among Pacers best shooters (3pt) even considering his terrible end of the season. I'm not saying that he is better than somebody, but let's respect the facts.
                  I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

                  Comment

                  • #24
                    Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                    Originally posted by DeS
                    People, let's get reasonable. Of course Sarunas has flaws, but he isn't that bad as You picture him. You mentioned TO's and shooting. If you compare it with Tinsley, you'll see that his (Runi) TO statistics is much better (1.55 to 2.84). If You compare shooting:
                    Runi - Tinsley
                    FT: .91 .637
                    FG: .396 .409
                    3PT: .364 .229
                    You will see, that Runi is more effective shooter (considering that he is shooting mostly 3 pointers) as his scoring-per-shot is a way higher and FT much better. And he is among Pacers best shooters (3pt) even considering his terrible end of the season. I'm not saying that he is better than somebody, but let's respect the facts.
                    Statistics don't tell the whole story, especially if Tinsley was playing hurt all of last season.

                    Sorry, but Sarunas is no where and will never be the player Tinsley is. Tinsley just has to show this season he will be durable for 65+ games.

                    Comment

                    • #25
                      Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                      Originally posted by ARTESTINMYHEART
                      Sorry, but Tinsley is no where and will never be the player Tinsley is. Tinsley just has to show this season he will be durable for 65+ games.
                      Now your making some sense.

                      Why Not Us ?

                      Comment

                      • #26
                        Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                        Originally posted by ARTESTINMYHEART
                        Statistics don't tell the whole story, especially if Tinsley was playing hurt all of last season.

                        Sorry, but Sarunas is no where and will never be the player Tinsley is. Tinsley just has to show this season he will be durable for 65+ games.
                        Please, don't use my quote out of context (especially, after I wrote "I'm not saying that he is better than somebody, but let's respect the facts."), I was just repling to the sentence "He passes to teammates when they are covered so well that they can't get control and TO the ball, his shot was second worst on the roster only Gill had a worse percentage".
                        And if statistics about shooting doesn't tell the story, we could subtract the numbers Tinsley played hurt, but we also should subtract the numbers Runi after hit the wall.
                        I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

                        Comment

                        • #27
                          Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                          Originally posted by DeS
                          Please, don't use my quote out of context (especially, after I wrote "I'm not saying that he is better than somebody, but let's respect the facts."), I was just repling to the sentence "He passes to teammates when they are covered so well that they can't get control and TO the ball, his shot was second worst on the roster only Gill had a worse percentage".
                          And if statistics about shooting doesn't tell the story, we could subtract the numbers Tinsley played hurt, but we also should subtract the numbers Runi after hit the wall.
                          The reason Sarunas "hit the wall" was because teams got scouting reports of Sarunas and started to pressure him up the court and not give him the open 3. Tinsley is also a much superior passer and the type of vision Tinsley has on the court is amazing.

                          No one is questioning how much of a superior talent Tinsley is to Sarunas, people are questioning his durability and Tinsley will prove them wrong this season.

                          Comment

                          • #28
                            Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                            No the fact that Runi hit a wall is the biggest knock on him. He is 30+ years of age. The odds that he will even develop the stamina to play from November to June(More likely May) are astounding. Plus the odds he can improve his game, and keep it improved while dealing with the grueling NBA schedule.

                            I think its more likely one of the guys(Hopefully me) on this board hooks up with Michelle Wie.

                            Comment

                            • #29
                              Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                              Originally posted by ARTESTINMYHEART
                              The reason Sarunas "hit the wall" was because teams got scouting reports of Sarunas and started to pressure him up the court and not give him the open 3.
                              I doubt it. Most of his 3pt shots were quality shots (all the season). And even if so, this is a good possibility to spread the floor. And what about Tinsley - with such a poor 3pt percentage oponents even doesn't have to defend him at 3 and it limits his penetration possibilities.

                              Originally posted by ARTESTINMYHEART
                              Tinsley is also a much superior passer and the type of vision Tinsley has on the court is amazing.
                              No, Tinsley isn't much superior passer. Likely he is superior in the area now, but the difference isn't very big. If I remember correctly, they both are tied on seasons most assits (11(?)) per game and the AST/TO ratio is similar.

                              Originally posted by ARTESTINMYHEART
                              No one is questioning how much of a superior talent Tinsley is to Sarunas, people are questioning his durability and Tinsley will prove them wrong this season.
                              That would be fine!
                              I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

                              Comment

                              • #30
                                Re: Let's Discuss Runi as Starting PG

                                Originally posted by DeS
                                I doubt it. Most of his 3pt shots were quality shots (all the season). And even if so, this is a good possibility to spread the floor. And what about Tinsley - with such a poor 3pt percentage oponents even doesn't have to defend him at 3 and it limits his penetration possibilities.
                                You can't say you are right on both counts. Sarunas effect on spreading the floor was very minimal that his weaknesses on offense and bringing the ball up the court and being the worst defenders in the league took away from any of that "Reggie Miller" effect. Sarunas is just not as good as a shooter from the NBA 3. We aren't playing European here.

                                As for penetration possibilities, Tinsley is one of the best penetraters in the open court on offense in the NBA. His 3 point shooting and outside shooting has come a long way. When you are rusty and hurt, you don't shoot how you normally do. Unlike Tinsley, Sarunas has a chance to prove his game and failed last season.


                                No, Tinsley isn't much superior passer. Likely he is superior in the area now, but the difference isn't very big. If I remember correctly, they both are tied on seasons most assits (11(?)) per game and the AST/TO ratio is similar.
                                You Europeans like to rely on only statistics except to how the game is actually played. Tinsley just makes the game so much easier for his teammates and he doesn't need to learn to dribble the ball up the court. Saying everything you have said, you compare stats for an injured Tinsley to a healthy Sarunas and Tinsley still leads the mark.

                                I hope Sarunas has a good year at back-PG, but he will never be the starting PG of an NBA team that wants to make the playoffs.

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