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Thread: Where do we rank now?

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by naptown View Post
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    I personally dont want a team that has to rely on the three ball to win games. I would much rather have a team that goes to the hole and gets to the free throw line.

    We may not have any very good 3 point shooters, but we have several very good 18-20 feet shooters. Which is all you really need to keep teams honest. Lets be a team that is going to the hole (and subsequently the free throw line) than a team that lives and dies by the 3 point shot.
    That's not what I was saying at all. By outside scorer, I mean perimeter scorer who can make things happen by himself, whether that be a shooter or a driver. Unlike a big man, they can make it happen when the offense is falling apart.

    And considering I said we'd be pretty good in the postseason, I don't think I was even saying we really needed one of those.

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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Here is a link to the story on that.

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2537369

  3. #103
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?



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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    No, I didn't read every post in this thread, but am I the only one that thinks people are giving way too much credit to Chicago for the addition of Ben Wallace? I don't see how his presence lifts them into the top 2-3 teams in the conference. I never saw their deficiencies to be defensive ones, but rather somone on the interior who will take pressure off their guards on offense. I don't see Wallace filling that void. They are still going to be a team that plays hard on both ends, but they are a piece or 2 from playing for the conference title.

    Until proven otherwise, you have to consider Miami and Detroit to be the teams everyone else is chasing. From there on down there isn't much separating Cleveland, Indiana, Chicago, Washington, and New Jersey. And Orlando will probably be in there somewhere by the end of the season. I still like Cleveland and Indiana over Chicago, but it could once again be very interesting down the home stretch.

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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Currently I see the top 8 teams in the East as...

    Heat (The champs you have to put them here until they lose or collapse)
    Bulls (Even without the Ben signing they were a team on the rise)
    Pacers (Come on if JO is going 20 and 10, Al is going 19 and 7, Danny is going 16 and 8 and Tins is healthy we should not be any worse than third. Tins is the biggest if of the bunch IMO.)
    Cavs (I'm still not sold on anyone after my top 3 not really sold on the Pacers either. Is Hughes healthy enough? No Flip to bail them out if he goes down.)
    Nets (I dunno Carter has to keep his head on the game or this team could disappear)
    Pistons (The return of Rashweed starts this year IMO. They won't be as good as they have been and with no Ben to lead him and keep him in line things sour for the Pistons.)
    Wizards (Eh why not?)
    Magic (On fire end of last year. D12 and Jameer are young studs)

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  6. #106
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinuven View Post
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    No, I didn't read every post in this thread, but am I the only one that thinks people are giving way too much credit to Chicago for the addition of Ben Wallace? I don't see how his presence lifts them into the top 2-3 teams in the conference. I never saw their deficiencies to be defensive ones, but rather somone on the interior who will take pressure off their guards on offense. I don't see Wallace filling that void. They are still going to be a team that plays hard on both ends, but they are a piece or 2 from playing for the conference title.

    Until proven otherwise, you have to consider Miami and Detroit to be the teams everyone else is chasing. From there on down there isn't much separating Cleveland, Indiana, Chicago, Washington, and New Jersey. And Orlando will probably be in there somewhere by the end of the season. I still like Cleveland and Indiana over Chicago, but it could once again be very interesting down the home stretch.
    While I agree that the Ben signing isn't as big a deal as some make it you cannot deny that Chicago is a team to be reckoned with. Kirk, Ben, Nocioni, and Deng is a good lineup.

    I disagree about people chasing Detroit. Ben is the player people feared on that team. Nazr is a decent center, but this is an aging team that just had their heart and soul ripped out of them when they lost Ben. The Pistons are not going to win the Eastern Conference this year. You can sign and seal that.

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  7. #107
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    So much of what Indiana does in dependent on Tinsley. IF, and that is a BIG IF until proven otherwise, Tinsley stays healthy then I see the Pacers as true contenders to come out of the East.

    Health is an issue with every team. Teams cant win when they have injury issues (and suspensions) like the Pacers had the last two years. Barring another rash of long term and frequent injuries the Pacers have the talent on this team to go very deep into the playoffs, and IF (there is another BIG IF) chemistry and selflessness prevail then true contenders to win it all.

    There not that many teams that have the depth and flexibility with their roster that the Pacers do. JO, Hulk, Foster can all play the 5. JO, Harrington, Foster, Baston, Granger can all play the 4. Granger, Harrington, Jax, Quis, Marshall, White, Williams can all play the 3. Jax, Quis, Saras, Marshall, White can all play the 2. Tins, Saras, Armstrong, Greene, Daniels can all play the 1.

    We are deep, we have guys that can play multiple positions, if healthy this team can make a lot of noise this year.

  8. #108
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rinuven View Post
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    No, I didn't read every post in this thread, but am I the only one that thinks people are giving way too much credit to Chicago for the addition of Ben Wallace? I don't see how his presence lifts them into the top 2-3 teams in the conference. I never saw their deficiencies to be defensive ones, but rather somone on the interior who will take pressure off their guards on offense. I don't see Wallace filling that void. They are still going to be a team that plays hard on both ends, but they are a piece or 2 from playing for the conference title.

    Until proven otherwise, you have to consider Miami and Detroit to be the teams everyone else is chasing. From there on down there isn't much separating Cleveland, Indiana, Chicago, Washington, and New Jersey. And Orlando will probably be in there somewhere by the end of the season. I still like Cleveland and Indiana over Chicago, but it could once again be very interesting down the home stretch.
    Honestly, I think Detroit is being very overrated.

    When nobody looked at Chuancey Billups or Tayshaun Prince as great players, it was said that Detroit won because of their play as a team -- that they were greater than the sum of their parts.

    Yet, now that a major piece of that puzzle is gone in Ben Wallace, the main anchor to the team's defense and identity, the Pistons are still supposed to be contenders because "they still have three All-Stars?"

    The Pistons no longer have a team identity. Their best and most important defensive player is gone. They're being coached by a man who emphasizes offense over defense. The Pistons you knew the past three seasons are no more.

    I look for Detroit to be much more perimeter-oriented this season, with more focus on outscoring opponents than holding them down. I also look for them to be very vulnerable inside. The Pistons will still be solid, a playoff team even -- but they're no longer a title contender.

  9. #109
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    Honestly, I think Detroit is being very overrated.

    When nobody looked at Chuancey Billups or Tayshaun Prince as great players, it was said that Detroit won because of their play as a team -- that they were greater than the sum of their parts.

    Yet, now that a major piece of that puzzle is gone in Ben Wallace, the main anchor to the team's defense and identity, the Pistons are still supposed to be contenders because "they still have three All-Stars?"

    The Pistons no longer have a team identity. Their best and most important defensive player is gone. They're being coached by a man who emphasizes offense over defense. The Pistons you knew the past three seasons are no more.

    I look for Detroit to be much more perimeter-oriented this season, with more focus on outscoring opponents than holding them down. I also look for them to be very vulnerable inside. The Pistons will still be solid, a playoff team even -- but they're no longer a title contender.
    Honestly, I think you are underrating Detroit.

    I think Ben Wallace is the only replaceable guy in that Pistons starting line-up.

    How do people think we are better than a team that will run circles around our PG and our SG, have a promising, young SF that is still better than our promising, young SF, a guy who always ends up playing better than our franchise guy, and a bench that's more experienced than ours. I guess Al might be the x-factor but IIRC, he wasn't that effective against them in 2004.

    In addition to all this, they dominated all other teams too last year.

  10. #110
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Honestly, I think you are underrating Detroit.

    I think Ben Wallace is the only replaceable guy in that Pistons starting line-up.

    How do people think we are better than a team that will run circles around our PG and our SG, have a promising, young SF that is still better than our promising, young SF, a guy who always ends up playing better than our franchise guy, and a bench that's more experienced than ours. I guess Al might be the x-factor but IIRC, he wasn't that effective against them in 2004.

    In addition to all this, they dominated all other teams too last year.
    Ben Wallace the ONLY replaceable player in the Pistons starting lineup? Ok you lost me.

    You honestly think people will fear Sheed and Dice or Sheed and Nazr as much as they feared Sheed and Ben? Hell no. Especially us. We now have two inside players that can score in Al and JO and the Pistons only have one defensive stopper. Nazr is not a defensive stopper by any means he is a big body on D and a good rebounder but not much more. Billups, Rip, or Sheed goes down and that team is gonna be playing for lotto balls.

    And I think you showed yourself how big of an impact the Ben and Sheed combo had by pointing out that Al struggled in 03-04. Sheed and Ben were effective because they had each other. Ben was able to float around and is such a great weakside shot blocker, without that weakside presence teams are going to be able to cut into the paint off of double teams a ton easier than they could in the past.

    Honestly I'm not so sure that Prince is significantly better than Danny talent wise. He has more experience, but is he really more talented? IMO Danny is the better shooter and maybe the better rebounder already. Prince is better in one on one D. Athleticisim is probably a push. Neither has really shown a great off the dribble game yet IMHO. Prince brought the ball up a bit for the Pistons last year, but he never seemed to really break down the D in the half court. Yeah their backcourt is better but IMO our frontcourt and bench is better. Rick and Flip is probably a toss up for most people at this point. At the very least I think on paper we are equal to the Pistons right now. Whether that translates to the court remains to be seen.

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  11. #111
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by indy0731 View Post
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    Ben Wallace the ONLY replaceable player in the Pistons starting lineup? Ok you lost me.

    You honestly think people will fear Sheed and Dice or Sheed and Nazr as much as they feared Sheed and Ben? Hell no. Especially us. We now have two inside players that can score in Al and JO and the Pistons only have one defensive stopper. Nazr is not a defensive stopper by any means he is a big body on D and a good rebounder but not much more. Billups, Rip, or Sheed goes down and that team is gonna be playing for lotto balls.

    And I think you showed yourself how big of an impact the Ben and Sheed combo had by pointing out that Al struggled in 03-04. Sheed and Ben were effective because they had each other. Ben was able to float around and is such a great weakside shot blocker, without that weakside presence teams are going to be able to cut into the paint off of double teams a ton easier than they could in the past.

    Honestly I'm not so sure that Prince is significantly better than Danny talent wise. He has more experience, but is he really more talented? IMO Danny is the better shooter and maybe the better rebounder already. Prince is better in one on one D. Athleticisim is probably a push. Neither has really shown a great off the dribble game yet IMHO. Prince brought the ball up a bit for the Pistons last year, but he never seemed to really break down the D in the half court. Yeah their backcourt is better but IMO our frontcourt and bench is better. Rick and Flip is probably a toss up for most people at this point. At the very least I think on paper we are equal to the Pistons right now. Whether that translates to the court remains to be seen.
    OK. Whatever you say. We'll see soon enough, won't we?

    If I'm betting 50K in Vegas tomorrow though, I'm putting my money on the Pistons having the better record and I'd put my money on them beating us in a seven-game series.

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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    OK. Whatever you say. We'll see soon enough, won't we?

    If I'm betting 50K in Vegas tomorrow though, I'm putting my money on the Pistons having the better record and I'd put my money on them beating us in a seven-game series.
    Yes we will. I still don't see the logic though behind a guy who is a multi time all-star, a what? three time DPOY, and the man that defined a team for the past five years being the most replaceable player in a team's starting lineup. Especially when he starts next to a guy who has past off the court/on the court problems and is also about the same age. IMO Sheed is much more replaceable than Ben.

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    Detroit relied heavily on Ben's offensive rebounding for their offensive success. They were 5th in the league last year in that category as a team (Ben led the league in offensive boards at just under 4 per game).

    They were third in the league in blocks, where Ben was number 9 in the league at just over two a game. And that dont even count the bad shots he forced and just the seed of doubt he planted in people heads when they went to the hole.

    Ben was vital to what they did at both ends of the floor. I think them losing Ben is going to be a much bigger loss than anyone realizes at this point. I personally think the impact is so big that it puts the Pacers and the Bulls as the front runners for the division.

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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by indy0731 View Post
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    Yes we will. I still don't see the logic though behind a guy who is a multi time all-star, a what? three time DPOY, and the man that defined a team for the past five years being the most replaceable player in a team's starting lineup. Especially when he starts next to a guy who has past off the court/on the court problems and is also about the same age. IMO Sheed is much more replaceable than Ben.
    I thought Sheed was their MVP last year but whatever, maybe Pistons fans will disagree with me. Regardless, agree to disagree. Whale's vagina.

    I'm glad we can be civil still, hehe.

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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Playoffs Overall record
    1. Miami 1. Miami
    2. Indiana 2. Indiana
    3. New Jersey 3. Chicago
    4. Chicago 4. Detroit
    5. Detroit 5. Clevland
    6. Clevland 6. New Jesrsey
    7. Orlando 7. Orlando
    8. Washington 8. Washington
    The Bucks get an honorable mention.

    What did they do to fix the bracets this year in the playoffs? I remember something was done but I forget exactly what that was.

  16. #116

    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    There can be no doubt that the Pistons will feel the effects from losing Ben. However, I can't agree with the comments saying that he was the heart and soul of the team. If I remember it wasn't until they acquired Rasheed that they made the runs they did. The Pistons seem to go as he goes. I do not see them spiraling down the ranks in the division because of his absence like some of you are making it out to be.

    Nor does Ben's addition to Chicago leap frog them ahead of Detroit in the division. Yes, his rebounding will create more scoring opportunities, but he isn't going to take the pressure off the perimeter guys the way they really need it to make a push to the conference finals.

    My opinion of course. It would be fun to see them make some noise...I like their squad, I just don't think they are there, yet. Seeing the Pacers and Bulls duke it out again would be a blast.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Honestly, I think you are underrating Detroit.

    I think Ben Wallace is the only replaceable guy in that Pistons starting line-up.

    How do people think we are better than a team that will run circles around our PG and our SG, have a promising, young SF that is still better than our promising, young SF, a guy who always ends up playing better than our franchise guy, and a bench that's more experienced than ours. I guess Al might be the x-factor but IIRC, he wasn't that effective against them in 2004.

    In addition to all this, they dominated all other teams too last year.
    Another thing to add.....

    Detroit still has the most best offensive, defensive, poised, steady, confident and playoff-tested back-court in the East. By A LOT. New Jersey is the only one that's close. But since I seem to be the only one around here the think's JKidd has anything left, I'm sure my opinion of he and VC is higher than most. Regardless, Billups and RIP are far and away the best back-court in the East. Worth mentioning.

    And I think the loss of Ben makes them better offensively. And it's not just that Nazr's 9 ppg is better than Ben's 5 ppg.

    Without Ben standing around the paint, Rasheed will most likely spend more time on the block and less time shooting threes. Not only is he dominant on the block when he commits himself, but this also opens up more perimeter touches and scoring opportunities for Tayshaun. And I believe Tayshaun is someone who has fallen into the "Derrick McKey" rut that we were discussing as a possibility for concern with Granger.

    On the 3-4 possessions per game when Tayshaun squares up his man and tries to make an offensive move, he seems to score pretty effortlessly. I can't even say how many times I've seen him blow by someone with 5 minutes left in the fourth and dunk, and then been like "here he comes" only to see him not take another shot the rest of the way. I believe he's been deferring.

    And I know he wasn't deffering to Big Ben, but the deferential attitude may have come about because he was the "worst" of the starters on the Pistons. Now, he's one of the "Big 4" and I imagine this will have a positive effect on his aggressiveness. Not for sure, but I think it's likely.

    Even if not, their offense has improved with Nazr over Ben, even if just slightly. Flip is coaching now, not LB. This will help them. They will lose a bunch on D, but they still put out five above average defenders--something very few NBA teams can boast.

    There's ZERO chance we finish with a better record than Detroit if the rosters remain as is and they don't have a major injury to a starter. ZERO.
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Wade + Whoever > Billups + Hamilton
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
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    Wade + Whoever > Billups + Hamilton
    Um...no.

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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Well, let's see here...

    Miami - they're the champs, and who in the East has made moves to make themselves a better team?
    New Jersey - I really like the team they've got over there; Kidd's age may start to affect them, but, they're still going to be good.
    Detroit - Losing Big Ben hurts, but getting Rasho helps. They won't be as good as they were, but, still better than...
    Indiana - Probably best case scenario - Tins/JO stay healthy, new system works.
    Cleveland - James is awesome, but that's about it - I'll take our experience and coaching over theirs until I see differently.
    Chicago - Big Ben gives them a boost, though they still have their issues.
    Washington - I just like the team; I blame Robertmo for forcing the Kool-Aid on me.
    Orlando - I'm buying these guys as a playoff team.

    EDIT: The Pistons got Nazr, the Raps got Rasho - thanks Mourning.

    Those are my eight, completely ignoring divisions and only going on who I think are the best eight teams in the East, sorta in that order.
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    Here's how I see it

    1 Miami (you can't say anything about them because they are the defending champs and they have Flash, who could very well be the best player in the league right now
    2 Chicago (not just because of the Big Ben pickup but because this team has been on the rise for the past few years. I was afraid of the baby bulls two years ago before they even had much game experience. With Nocioni, Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Wallace, Duhon and Tyrus Thomas, I think this team is very scary
    3 Indiana (depending on what move we make, I'd like to see Jack and Foster for BMiller happen) I think we could be anywhere from 3-6
    4 Cleveland (LBJ has an even better year and Varejao has an even more breakout year than the last. The big question mark on this team is how well will Larry Hughes be able to mesh with Lebron. If everything goes well then they could be a very good 1,2 punch on the back court with Zydrunas and Varajao down low.
    5Detroit (I see this team falling apart this year. I think the defensive emphasis drops a lot in Flips second year
    6 Washington (Gilbert Arenas is undeniably a stud. after going point for point with Lebron in the 1st round last year. He is the reason that they make the playoffs)
    7 New Jersey The reason that I have them so low is that I think Kidd is in the decline of his career and his performance drops significantly. With Carter getting divorced and possibly leaving New Jersey, their ranking could drop them out of the playoffs. Although if Kidd stays healthy and plays well, if Carter stays and if Nenad Krstic plays like he has been, the Nets could be tough competition in the east.
    8 Orlando, just because I see Howard having an unbelievable year, and with JJ redick, Carlos Arroyo and Jameer Nelson all capable of taking care of business in the backcourt. Also I think this is the year that Darko proves he deserves some respect
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    WellDetroit - Losing Big Ben hurts, but getting Rasho helps. They won't be as good as they were, but, still better than...
    I thought Detroit signed Nazr?

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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Um...no.
    Uh... yeah. Especially when 'whoever' is two decent pgs in Payton and Williams.


    No way in hades would I take a Billups/Rip backcourt over Williams/Wade...
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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by countarfit View Post
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    Here's how I see it

    1 Miami (you can't say anything about them because they are the defending champs and they have Flash, who could very well be the best player in the league right now
    2 Chicago (not just because of the Big Ben pickup but because this team has been on the rise for the past few years. I was afraid of the baby bulls two years ago before they even had much game experience. With Nocioni, Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, Wallace, Duhon and Tyrus Thomas, I think this team is very scary
    3 Indiana (depending on what move we make, I'd like to see Jack and Foster for BMiller happen) I think we could be anywhere from 3-6
    4 Cleveland (LBJ has an even better year and Varejao has an even more breakout year than the last. The big question mark on this team is how well will Larry Hughes be able to mesh with Lebron. If everything goes well then they could be a very good 1,2 punch on the back court with Zydrunas and Varajao down low.
    5Detroit (I see this team falling apart this year. I think the defensive emphasis drops a lot in Flips second year
    6 Washington (Gilbert Arenas is undeniably a stud. after going point for point with Lebron in the 1st round last year. He is the reason that they make the playoffs)
    7 New Jersey The reason that I have them so low is that I think Kidd is in the decline of his career and his performance drops significantly. With Carter getting divorced and possibly leaving New Jersey, their ranking could drop them out of the playoffs. Although if Kidd stays healthy and plays well, if Carter stays and if Nenad Krstic plays like he has been, the Nets could be tough competition in the east.
    8 Orlando, just because I see Howard having an unbelievable year, and with JJ redick, Carlos Arroyo and Jameer Nelson all capable of taking care of business in the backcourt. Also I think this is the year that Darko proves he deserves some respect
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: Where do we rank now?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning View Post
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    I thought Detroit signed Nazr?

    Regards,

    Mourning
    Yup, Detroit got Nazr, and Toronto got Rasho. I was close though...

    My opinion of Detroit remains the same though.
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