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Thread: Will we improve scoring?

  1. #1

    Default Will we improve scoring?

    Last year, the Pacers were a good rebounding team (8th in the NBA) and a good defending team (5th fewest points allowed). But they were a poor scoring team (23rd), and a poor ball handling team (ranked 25th in ratio of assists to turnovers).

    I would argue that the way we accomplished the 5th fewest points allowed was more by slowing the tempo than by locking down the other team. We kept scores low by using up clock at our end.

    Anyway, how do the two guys we drafted and the two we are trying to get help the team to improve where it needs to: at scoring and ball handling?

    I think the effects of Williams and White will be negligible, at least in the first half of the new season. And I don't think Bonzi or Al can help that much with scoring on a team whose main outside presence is Sarunas(!).

    Conclusion: We need to get a shooting guard who can shoot.
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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    i've been voicing this since we lost peja.

    we will suck with a lineup of tins, bonzi, granger, harrington, and jo......teams will just pack it in on use. i am all for getting harrington and starting DG at the 3. but we need a 2 guard who can shoot....that's not bonzi.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101
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    i've been voicing this since we lost peja.

    we will suck with a lineup of tins, bonzi, granger, harrington, and jo......teams will just pack it in on use. i am all for getting harrington and starting DG at the 3. but we need a 2 guard who can shoot....that's not bonzi.
    Why?

    Bonzi's career 3pt% is only 1% lower than Jackon's. Why all of a sudden would teams start packing it in?

    Harrington is also a lot bigger threat from the outside than any other option at either the 4 or 5, so he'd extend the defense a lot farther than anyone else would.

    So there's a very small drop off at the two spot, and a very large increase at the 4 spot, yet you're forseeing teams just playing the middle on us even more?

    EDIT: Sorry, his career 3pt% isn't 1% higher, it's .3%.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Al + Bonzi + JO are all guys who can be effective on the low blocks.

    If you play them together, you are asking one of them to become a perimeter jumpshooter as the defense doubles the guy on the blocks.

    Sorry, but even if he were not an idiot, Bonzi on the blocks means JO and/or Al are shooting fadeaways and 18-footers. I's rather have JO or Al or the blocks and a deadly accurate and consistent SG ready to pull the trigger from the perimeter.

    The problem I'm having is identifying the deadly accurate and consistent SG. I know he is not named Jackson, though.
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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by pacertom
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    Al + Bonzi + JO are all guys who can be effective on the low blocks.

    If you play them together, you are asking one of them to become a perimeter jumpshooter as the defense doubles the guy on the blocks.

    Sorry, but even if he were not an idiot, Bonzi on the blocks means JO and/or Al are shooting fadeaways and 18-footers. I's rather have JO or Al or the blocks and a deadly accurate and consistent SG ready to pull the trigger from the perimeter.

    The problem I'm having is identifying the deadly accurate and consistent SG. I know he is not named Jackson, though.
    Al + Bonzi + JO is still better than Foster + Jackson + JO.

    The same problem is still there, but you'll get a lot more production from Al than Foster and that's the big selling point.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Why?

    Bonzi's career 3pt% is only 1% lower than Jackon's. Why all of a sudden would teams start packing it in?

    Because we're talking now about replacing not just Jackson but also Peja. The Pacers suddenly are a team that has very little outside threat. We took a higher percentage of 3s last year than all but three other teams, but we won't have that ability in the coming season.

    Peja was criticized for being one dimensional. But, as such, he could spread the defense. They knew he was going to hoist a three whenever he had a chance. So if they wanted to defend him, they had to go out and met him at the arc. Peja's one-dimensional nature caused the defense to spread.

    The guys we are talking about now in the forecourt (JO, Harrington, Granger) plus Wells are more multi-dimensional. They can maybe shoot from 15-18 feet. But they can for sure go inside. So the defenses can play them differently -- collapse on them and dare them to shoot. It would help the forecourt players if there was still some serious perimeter threat -- even a one-dimensional one.
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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Danny's 3pt% for his rookie year surpasses Peja's rookies 3pt%, and Peja had been playing at a much higher level for longer than Danny had.

    Danny is no slouch when it comes to outside shooting. He might not ever be come on par with Peja, but he'll be in the same vicinity.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    The answer for all our troubles would be to bring in Damon Jones, Phil Jackson, and run the triangle. Problem solved.

    and yes, I'm kidding. I think...

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Al + Bonzi + JO is still better than Foster + Jackson + JO.

    The same problem is still there, but you'll get a lot more production from Al than Foster and that's the big selling point.
    It might be better, but it sure is predictable and easy to defend aswell as costing as a TON more. I rather get a good SG with that money and make sure we get some room for the players who play inside to be more effective.

    Comparing Al with Foster makes no sense to me at all. They don't play the same position and this also means by default JO would have to play Center, something I am opposed to giving the way he seems to be breaking down the last two years in which he played major minutes at Center.

    We better keep JO from breaking down with that contract of his.

    And that Bonzi is a slightly better or worse 3PT% shooter then or current starting SG means absolutely nothing to me as people want him out, partially because of some of his bad shooting and shot selection (which brings down his 3PT%) which isn't that good for a SG at all. So, Jackson is NOT the guy I would want our new SG to compare with.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    i have no problem signing bonzi if we intend to start him over DG at SF and then bring in a shooting 2 guard.

    but we can't hold our hopes on starting bonzi at the 2 and granger at the 3. it just won't work. you need someone to keep the D honest at the 3 point line.

    mike miller is a guy i have in mind.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    It might be better, but it sure is predictable and easy to defend aswell as costing as a TON more. I rather get a good SG with that money and make sure we get some room for the players who play inside to be more effective.
    I would too, but at this point in time it's not looking like it will happen. I'm going with the theme of this thread, and that means looking at how the pieces will fit if we acquire Bonzi and Al.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    Comparing Al with Foster makes no sense to me at all. They don't play the same position and this also means by default JO would have to play Center, something I am opposed to giving the way he seems to be breaking down the last two years in which he played major minutes at Center.

    We better keep JO from breaking down with that contract of his.
    No they don't play the same position, but Al would replace Foster in the lineup. So for all intents and purposes, they need to be evaluated by each other. JO is going to play the same style whether he's matched up with the 4s or 5s, so the only thing that's going to change is his wingman.

    Again, I'm also against JO playing center, but that's not the theme of this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    And that Bonzi is a slightly better or worse 3PT% shooter then or current starting SG means absolutely nothing to me as people want him out, partially because of some of his bad shooting and shot selection (which brings down his 3PT%) which isn't that good for a SG at all. So, Jackson is NOT the guy I would want our new SG to compare with.

    Regards,

    Mourning
    Jackson isn't who I want either, nor is Bonzi, but I don't have the power to change that. Bonzi is going to bring the same shooting as Jax, just with a different name, which is why I labeled Al being the bigger selling point in the offensive category than Foster.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Will we improve our scoring? Possiably. But that can be easily done by just picking the tempo up a bit.

    Does anyone know our oppenants FG% from last year? That, IMO, is the telling of a good defenseive team. We already are a good rebounding team, which could change depending on moves, but if we can force missed shots and rebound we can run...improving our scoring.

    If we sign Al we better not go sign Bonzi, I don't want 3 post scorers. Bonzi has only shot over 100 3s in 3 seasons And I also consider Danny Granger a guy who scores inside. Some of you may say well Danny can shoot the 3 and blah blah blah but the thing is that Danny is not as good at shooting it deep as he is at taking it in. I don't really want our top 4 scorers being players who do their scoring on the inside. We need to be balanced.

    As someone has already mentioned Damon Jones and Mike Miller would be alright. Kyle Korver is another opition. Ricky Davis is not a great shooter but I think he is more perminter orianted than Bonzi.

    To be honest thought we might be better off just keeping Stephen Jackson because the guys that would work would probably be difficult to get. And sure we can get Bonzi but I don't think he is a better fit than Stephen for this team.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    In 2003-04, Al and Foster *WERE* the powerforwards. Jeff started and played 20 mpg, almost exclusively at PF. Al played 28 mpg off the bench, almost exclusively at PF. Al would play a few minutest per game at SF, but Jeff rarely played center.

    Al and Jeff most certainly play the same position.

    Let's take this one step further... Rick prefered Jeff at PF and JO at C over Al at PF and JO at C, at least in the starting lineup. Fred took almost all the backup SG minutes.

    The frontcourt combination of Ron-Al-JO was almost never on the court together.

    When Reggie sat down, the combination of Ron-Al-JO at 2-3-4 was also almost never on the court together.

    Now, this could have been because the chemistry between Al and Ron was shaky - for the longest time that's where I thought the chemistry problem was (not a Ron-JO problem) (after all, Ron took over "Al's starting spot" while he was injured and on many teams that is a no-no.)

    Regardless, if Rick is coaching this team we've already seen him coach away from a Ron-Al-JO trifecta. I can't imagine Rick designing an offense around a Bonzi-Al-JO combination, period. And if I could imagine such an offense, it would be extremely painful to watch.
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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I would too, but at this point in time it's not looking like it will happen. I'm going with the theme of this thread, and that means looking at how the pieces will fit if we acquire Bonzi and Al.

    I rather waite until next year then to tie up some serious dollars then to tie them up for players who we don't need and are likely going to duplicate each other. I'm not one that is in favour of the standing pat motion of the last few years, but NOW is the time to do just that if the other option is getting players we don't need.


    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    No they don't play the same position, but Al would replace Foster in the lineup. So for all intents and purposes, they need to be evaluated by each other. JO is going to play the same style whether he's matched up with the 4s or 5s, so the only thing that's going to change is his wingman.

    Again, I'm also against JO playing center, but that's not the theme of this thread..
    True, but JO playing center it IS the consequence of the choice you just made. That's one of the principal reasons I am against making that choice, even if it increases our offensive output.

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Jackson isn't who I want either, nor is Bonzi, but I don't have the power to change that. Bonzi is going to bring the same shooting as Jax, just with a different name, which is why I labeled Al being the bigger selling point in the offensive category than Foster.
    It's not about having the power to change it. We are just fans, but we can speculate, think, brain-storm and talk about it. Either way, one of the reasons we lost to New Jersey is that when Peja was out we didn't have ANY reliable 3point shooter on the team and lost the game.

    Whether you replace Jackson with Bonzi won't change that outcome, so in effect we still have the same problem and will loose about the sameway, unless you think Al is going to completely breake everything open. I don't believe that. He could help some, but clodding the middle is very easy and difficult to break when you don't have someone who can really hurt the opponent for doing just that.

    With the money on the line for Al or Bonzi (let stand both) there's no way we are going to really get a good SG IMO and also would create a potential chemistry disaster even if we would, because of limited playing time.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    Whether you replace Jackson with Bonzi won't change that outcome, so in effect we still have the same problem and will loose about the sameway, unless you think Al is going to completely breake everything open. I don't believe that. He could help some, but clodding the middle is very easy and difficult to break when you don't have someone who can really hurt the opponent for doing just that.
    I agree with out for the most part, but this is where we really part ways.

    Foster and Al have to be measured with each other, since one would replace the other. Defensively not much would change, assignment wise, because JO is going to guard the heavier/strong post player and Foster would guard the quicker/smaller post players. TD would really be the only player that breaks the rule.

    But anyways, are you really trying to say that Foster would open up the middle more than Al? Even if Al didn't leave the lane, EVER, he would command more respect from the defense than Foster does.

    Foster is a good rebounder, don't get me wrong, but he gets atleast 2rebounds a night just because he misses bunny shots right at the rim and no one is even close to being around him to challenge for the rebound. Teams can literally let him shoot at point blank range.

    Not only does Al command more attention in the paint than Jeff does, Al can also effectively step out and hit a jumpshot. No, that's not the mainstay of his game, but he's 1000 times deadly at 15ft than Foster can even dream of being.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Danny's 3pt% for his rookie year surpasses Peja's rookies 3pt%, and Peja had been playing at a much higher level for longer than Danny had.

    Danny is no slouch when it comes to outside shooting. He might not ever be come on par with Peja, but he'll be in the same vicinity.
    I just wanted to quote this again because nobody seems to be able to get it through their heads.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    I agree with out for the most part, but this is where we really part ways.

    Foster and Al have to be measured with each other, since one would replace the other. Defensively not much would change, assignment wise, because JO is going to guard the heavier/strong post player and Foster would guard the quicker/smaller post players. TD would really be the only player that breaks the rule.

    But anyways, are you really trying to say that Foster would open up the middle more than Al? Even if Al didn't leave the lane, EVER, he would command more respect from the defense than Foster does.

    Foster is a good rebounder, don't get me wrong, but he gets atleast 2rebounds a night just because he misses bunny shots right at the rim and no one is even close to being around him to challenge for the rebound. Teams can literally let him shoot at point blank range.

    Not only does Al command more attention in the paint than Jeff does, Al can also effectively step out and hit a jumpshot. No, that's not the mainstay of his game, but he's 1000 times deadly at 15ft than Foster can even dream of being.
    No, no that's not what I am saying at all, maybe I should have been more clearly. What I meant to say is that I rather spend the relatively little financial room we have on a SG who can open up the middle via his shooting than on Al (and/or Bonzi).

    Offcourse, Al is MUCH better offensively to Jeff and, for the record, I am not opposed to making Jeff part of a bigger trade package at all. But, I don't believe Al is going to have a better effect offensively compared to a good SG. IF we could get both, great. I don't believe we will though and I choose to prefer the SG to Al .

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    I just wanted to quote this again because nobody seems to be able to get it through their heads.
    How many shots did he take again?

    Could you even call that representative for beying a good 3-point shooter? I think he will be ok, maybe even a little better, but that's not going to be good enough. And I think his numbers will drop some when he has to shoot them a lot more (which is what I believe he would be ordered to do if we don't get someone else that could actually shoot the three), especially if teams really cover him once they realize he's one of our few players that can shoot the three a little.

    And to Jay. You are correct. Jeff did play a lot of PF when Al was around to. I do remember however that Rick tried a few times to place Ron-Al-Jo on the floor at the sametime and it didn't seem to work at all, maybe a bigger experiment was needed I don't know, but it didn't seem to work at the time. I remember beying a big advocate of it aswell.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Gotcha.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
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    How many shots did he take again?

    Could you even call that representative for beying a good 3-point shooter? I think he will be ok, maybe even a little better, but that's not going to be good enough. And I think his numbers will drop some when he has to shoot them a lot more (which is what I believe he would be ordered to do if we don't get someone else that could actually shoot the three), especially if teams really cover him once they realize he's one of our few players that can shoot the three a little.
    He'll be better at driving to the basket next season, and he's a very good free-throw shooter and will get better. Soon, they'll have to pick their poison when it comes to Mr. Granger. We don't need an all-time great three point shooter, we just need someone that has the ability to hit the shot. That's what Granger is, that's what Jasikevicious is, hell even AJ could be put in that category, give us Al Harrington and he's there too. As of now Stephen Jackson can hit the shot now and then. I also hear Shawne Williams and James white aren't too bad at hitting jumpshots either.

    I mean, everybody thinks of run & gun ball and thinks we should be shooting 50 three's per game. WRONG, that's how we'll end up getting beat. If we get guys that are good at getting easy baskets, we'll be better off than the team that has to shoot a dozen three-pointers to keep up.

    Don't forget how much shooting three's hurt us in the playoffs against New Jersey. They used it to fuel their fast breaks and beat us up the court.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by rommie
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    Does anyone know our oppenants FG% from last year? That, IMO, is the telling of a good defenseive team. We already are a good rebounding team, which could change depending on moves, but if we can force missed shots and rebound we can run...improving our scoring.

    .

    44.4% Pacers FG%
    43.5% Opponent FG%

    This raises another issue.

    The Pacers took 230 fewer shots over the season than their opponents. That amounts to almost three extra shots per game. No other team had as wide a deficit in field goals attempted compared to their opponents. (Only Portland and Sacramento were close.)

    I think this was due to poor offensive rebounding. (Pacers were 8th in overall rebounding, but 16th in offensive rebounding) Many possessions, the Pacers would run back upcourt as soon as anyone shot, rather than trying for the bounce. It cost 'em.

    We also fouled too much and turned the ball over too much. Anybody see any improvement coming our way in those factors due to Bonzi, Al, Flight or Shawne?
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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam
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    44.4% Pacers FG%
    43.5% Opponent FG%

    This raises another issue.

    The Pacers took 230 fewer shots over the season than their opponents. That amounts to almost three extra shots per game. No other team had as wide a deficit in field goals attempted compared to their opponents. (Only Portland and Sacramento were close.)

    I think this was due to poor offensive rebounding. (Pacers were 8th in overall rebounding, but 16th in offensive rebounding) Many possessions, the Pacers would run back upcourt as soon as anyone shot, rather than trying for the bounce. It cost 'em.

    We also fouled too much and turned the ball over too much. Anybody see any improvement coming our way in those factors due to Bonzi, Al, Flight or Shawne?
    This was not a issue with the players, this is a result of Rick chewing out any player that is not back on D. It is safer on a rick coached team to not go for the offensive board and get back on D everytime.

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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    He'll be better at driving to the basket next season, and he's a very good free-throw shooter and will get better. Soon, they'll have to pick their poison when it comes to Mr. Granger. We don't need an all-time great three point shooter, we just need someone that has the ability to hit the shot. That's what Granger is, that's what Jasikevicious is, hell even AJ could be put in that category, give us Al Harrington and he's there too. As of now Stephen Jackson can hit the shot now and then. I also hear Shawne Williams and James white aren't too bad at hitting jumpshots either.

    I mean, everybody thinks of run & gun ball and thinks we should be shooting 50 three's per game. WRONG, that's how we'll end up getting beat. If we get guys that are good at getting easy baskets, we'll be better off than the team that has to shoot a dozen three-pointers to keep up.

    Don't forget how much shooting three's hurt us in the playoffs against New Jersey. They used it to fuel their fast breaks and beat us up the court.
    Where did I ever write we should be a jump shooting team that shoots 50 three's a game, that's ridiculous. I'm also not saying we need a all-time great SG. But, we do need something better at knocking down open shots when the opponent is filling the middle.

    You NEED a good three point shooter wether you like it or not. You need the threat such a player creates to make it miles easier for other players to slash to the basket or work in the middle at all instead of beying constantly double or tripple teamed.

    We saw what happenned in the NJ-series when our only consistent outside threat didn't play.
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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchConnection
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    This was not a issue with the players, this is a result of Rick chewing out any player that is not back on D. It is safer on a rick coached team to not go for the offensive board and get back on D everytime.

    You are absolutely right. The coaching style has to be considered, too. It is not just a question of talent. Thanks.
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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    I mean, everybody thinks of run & gun ball and thinks we should be shooting 50 three's per game. WRONG, that's how we'll end up getting beat. If we get guys that are good at getting easy baskets, we'll be better off than the team that has to shoot a dozen three-pointers to keep up.

    Don't forget how much shooting three's hurt us in the playoffs against New Jersey. They used it to fuel their fast breaks and beat us up the court.
    Preach it, brother!
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #25
    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Will we improve scoring?

    I'm actually hoping that we get an outside threat in body of a PG. I know that spot already has 3 players trying to get some PT, but hopefully some will be packaged out.

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