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Thread: Det should have doubled Shaq

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    Default Det should have doubled Shaq

    I'm sitting here thinking, Detroit may have blown the ECF's.

    They should have doubled Shaq more. Diop, Damp, Dirk........all weak defenders. 5 years ago, Shaq runs over them like a train. But now, he can't split the defenses anymore. I'm sure Shaq was cocky after seeing his "equal" in Tim Duncan dominate the Mavs. Duncan is considered Shaq's "equal" as far as post presence. But Duncan has more "skills" than Shaq does, and was able to split the d more, plus he is 4 years younger. That's a big 4 years too.

    Shaq's problem is that he didn't learn alot of "skills" early on in his career. When he came into Orlando, he immediately started running through everyone like a freight train. He's basically done that his whole career. But now he's aged and he isn't very agle anymore. He should have worked on more skills early in his career so he could be like a Jabbar or a Malone, a post player that was still very valuable later in their career.

    Just watch. Shaq will get doubled non stop the rest of his career. No team will be scared of Shaq anymore after watching a team who is just decent on defense like Dallas make him virtually ineffective.

    Shaq's 28 point performace in game 6 against Det was considered "dominant" by everyone in the media. 4 or 5 years ago, 28 points in a playoff game would have been weak for Shaquille O'Neal.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    if his teammates could hit the wide open shots he handed to them, the double teams would stop coming and he would score more. don't forget he still shoots an incredible percentage. I think he's above 60% for the finals...

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles98
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    if his teammates could hit the wide open shots he handed to them, the double teams would stop coming and he would score more. don't forget he still shoots an incredible percentage. I think he's above 60% for the finals...

    Who cares what his shooting percentage is in the finals? He has a whopping 22 total points. 22 points in one finals game would have been weak for Shaq standards a few years back.

    The point is, the old Laker Shaq didn't have to rely on teammates to hit those shots. Sure, he needed to kick it out to guys like Fisher, Horry, and Fox a few times a game, but the majority of the time he was able to run right over whatever teams threw at him. Diop, Dirk, and Damp aren't on the all-defensive team last time I checked.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    The Dallas defense has been better than decent in this series. 80 points allowed in game 1 and 85 points allowed in game 2. Yeah your right. Just decent defense.
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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    What I meant was that Dallas has never been the epitome of a great defenisve team, even though their d is worlds better than it was years ago. Duncan still had a monster series against them. Duncan is agile and was able to split anything they threw at him. Shaq can't anymore.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    We did double him. Jason williams shot about %90 from the floor as a result. The last game he hit 10 straight jumpers.

    I don't think Miami missed an open shot in 6 ganes.

    What dampier and diop have over ben wallace is size, which is the only thing you really need anymore to slow the fat ******* down. That's how old man elden was able to do it the last 2 years. Make shaq catch the ball 10 feet out, he's a 15ppg player. Let him catch it 5 feet out, and he's a 30ppg player. The difference between the two is as simple as 30-40 extra pounds to throw around.

    Shaq's just big now. Any average 7'0" 270+ pounder can give him problems. Ben's problem is that he's 255 and 6'7". He can be as quick and persistant as he wants, if shaq can run you over, you're dead.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    We did double him. Jason williams shot about %90 from the floor as a result. The last game he hit 10 straight jumpers.

    I don't think Miami missed an open shot in 6 ganes.

    What dampier and diop have over ben wallace is size, which is the only thing you really need anymore to slow the fat ******* down. That's how old man elden was able to do it the last 2 years. Make shaq catch the ball 10 feet out, he's a 15ppg player. Let him catch it 5 feet out, and he's a 30ppg player. The difference between the two is as simple as 30-40 extra pounds to throw around.

    Shaq's just big now. Any average 7'0" 270+ pounder can give him problems. Ben's problem is that he's 255 and 6'7". He can be as quick and persistant as he wants, if shaq can run you over, you're dead.

    Right. The Pistons should have used Dale Davis more then. He was healthy, was he not? I'm not saying Davis could have stopped him, but they could have atleast tried. Davis and Ben Wallace doubling Shaq would have had to have caused some problems.

    True. Miami was knocking down shots, but Shaq was hot too. If Shaq would have played as bad against Detroit as he has against Dallas, Detroit would have won the series, regardless of Walker or Williams.

    Shaq's days are done. Teams will double and tripple him constantly after watching this series. I wouldn't be suprised to see Shaq hang it up soon. His pride and ego are too big to play at a crappy level.

    Shaq's problem is that he doesn't have fundamental basketball skills. Since he came into the league, his entire game has been running teams over. He really can't do that anymore. Himself or his coaches should have had the foresight years ago to have him develop fundamental skills that would be useful later in his career.
    Shaq's problem is that he doesn't have fundamental basketball skills.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987
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    What I meant was that Dallas has never been the epitome of a great defenisve team, even though their d is worlds better than it was years ago. Duncan still had a monster series against them. Duncan is agile and was able to split anything they threw at him. Shaq can't anymore.

    Their defense was ranked third overall this year. I put that in the "great" category, for this season at least.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86
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    Their defense was ranked third overall this year. I put that in the "great" category, for this season at least.


    Still, their post defense isn't that great.

    Duncan tore them apart. Diop, Dampier, Dirk......all just average defenders.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    the mavs didn't double duncan as aggressively. why? because he would pass out and his teammates would hit the open shots. 1v1, shaq is still pretty much unstoppable. if jwilliams or antoine made a decent percentage of wide open shots the heat would be in much better shape and shaq would be scoring a lot more.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    First off, Dale never could guard Shaq. The only thing that's worked against him is bulk, which is why Pollard is so effective against him. Dallas has bulk, thanks to them going out two years ago and getting seven 5's, and keeping the best of them.

    People act like Dirk plays C for them, that you don't need a low post presense anymore. I'd sure like to see this series if Dirk was matched against him. Or if Phoenix had won, and Diaw and Matrix were doubling him.
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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    First off, Dale never could guard Shaq. The only thing that's worked against him is bulk, which is why Pollard is so effective against him. Dallas has bulk, thanks to them going out two years ago and getting seven 5's, and keeping the best of them.

    People act like Dirk plays C for them, that you don't need a low post presense anymore. I'd sure like to see this series if Dirk was matched against him. Or if Phoenix had won, and Diaw and Matrix were doubling him.

    Would it have hurt anything to try Dale and Ben on Shaq? Whatever they were doing wasn't exactly working.

    When was Pollard so effective against Shaq? The Lakers destroyed the Kings 2 straight years in the playoffs, then beat them in a 7 gamer in 2002. By effective, do you mean holding him in the high 20's? I think Shaq had 35 points in the series clincher in 02.

    Dikembes "bulk" certainly didn't serve Philly that well against Shaq in the 2001 finals. Shaq averaged 33 or so against them. And wasn't Deke the DPOY that year? The Mavs strategy would have been useless 5 years ago.

    I never acted like Dirk played C for them. All I said was that a 7 footer like him certainly helps when you want to double or tripple O'Neal.
    --- Edited Follow-Up ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Achilles98
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    the mavs didn't double duncan as aggressively. why? because he would pass out and his teammates would hit the open shots. 1v1, shaq is still pretty much unstoppable. if jwilliams or antoine made a decent percentage of wide open shots the heat would be in much better shape and shaq would be scoring a lot more.


    It would obviously help if they were making shots, but you can't blame Shaq's pitiful production soley on that. You don't go from once averaging 30 something in the finals to getting 22 total points in 2 games and blame it soley on the other guys missing shots.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987
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    It would obviously help if they were making shots, but you can't blame Shaq's pitiful production soley on that. You don't go from once averaging 30 something in the finals to getting 22 total points in 2 games and blame it soley on the other guys missing shots.

    One thing I think everyone might be overlooking is how well Dallas has denied the entry pass down into Shaq. Of course, the Mavs have the size and bulk needed to move Shaq out of the paint but they have been fronting the post just as much as they have doubled him.

    Another factor is that they've pressured the ball with their 3/4-court defense. It was taking Miami almost 14 seconds just to get the ball below the 3-point line for a good majority of the 2nd quarter of game 2. They forced several turnovers, including a 24 second violation.

    Shaq is on the decline, there's no doubt about it, but you have to recognize that Dallas is playing some inspired Detroit '04 defense.
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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Agree that the Diesel is in serious decline, too. But you can't just say Damp and Diop are nobody defenders with the Dallas D being that good all year long.

    Maybe close to nobody on offense but all I see is the two of them hustling their arses off against Shaq and being effective. And, as pointed out, the team defense is great so they aren't alone.

    I think Detroit just played poorly and also had the misfortune of catching Miami at their high point of the year. Dallas has better offense, defense, and depth in the current matchup. Thus the Heat really have little chance unless Shaq and Wade combine for at least 60 each game.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace
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    Shaq is on the decline, there's no doubt about it, but you have to recognize that Dallas is playing some inspired Detroit '04 defense.

    And against Detroit 2 years ago, Shaq still managed to average about 26 points. I remember he had a monster 36 point game against them, and I think close to 20 boards with it. 2 years before that, he dominanted New Jersey and averaged like 36 against them in the finals. 2 years makes a big difference for Shaq since he has hit 30. He is a different player in 2002, 2004, and 2006. It's really sad to sit here and visualize how useless he'll probably be in 2008.

    I give the Mavs credit, but I credit the demise of Shaq's agility more for his low production. The Mavs strategy would have been useless a few years ago.

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    Default Re: Det should have doubled Shaq

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987
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    And against Detroit 2 years ago, Shaq still managed to average about 26 points. I remember he had a monster 36 point game against them, and I think close to 20 boards with it. 2 years before that, he dominanted New Jersey and averaged like 36 against them in the finals. 2 years makes a big difference for Shaq since he has hit 30. He is a different player in 2002, 2004, and 2006. It's really sad to sit here and visualize how useless he'll probably be in 2008.
    If I'm not mistaken Detroit was playing with the philosophy, "Shaq wil get his, stop everyone else."
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