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Thread: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

  1. #1
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    >>Who says “blowing a team up” doesn’t work?

    I’m pretty much now convinced there isn’t a damn problem with “blowing a team up.” Not in today’s league.

    Look at the final four teams this year and what do you see?

    Suns this year-

    Shawn Marion
    Steve Nash
    Kurt Thomas
    Raja Bell
    Amare Stoudemire
    James Jones
    Brian Grant
    Boris Diaw
    Leandro Barbosa
    Eddie House
    Pat Burke
    Dijon Thompson
    Jared Reiner
    Sharrod Ford
    Josh Davis
    Tim Thomas

    Last year-

    Shawn Marion
    Steve Nash
    Quentin Richardson
    Joe Johnson
    Amare Stoudemire
    Jake Voskuhl
    Zarko Cabarkapa
    Bo Outlaw
    Casey Jacobsen
    Maciej Lampe
    Leandro Barbosa
    Steven Hunter
    Jackson Vroman
    Yuta Tabuse

    The highlighted players are the only holdovers. Four guys. Four guys?!! Suns were in the WCF two years in a row.

    The Heat? This year-

    Shaquille O'Neal
    Jason Williams
    Antoine Walker
    James Posey
    Udonis Haslem
    Dwyane Wade
    Michael Doleac
    Dorell Wright
    Alonzo Mourning
    Gary Payton
    Shandon Anderson
    Jason Kapono
    Wayne Simien
    Andre Emmett
    Earl Barron
    Gerald Fitch

    Last year?

    Shaquille O'Neal
    Eddie Jones
    Dwyane Wade
    Damon Jones
    Michael Doleac
    Malik Allen
    Wesley Person
    Rasual Butler
    Dorrell Wright
    Christian Laettner
    Shandon Anderson
    Keyon Dooling
    Wang Zhizhi
    Jerome Beasley
    Udonis Haslem

    Heat were in the conference finals two years running and are now going for the title.

    Dallas has essentially stayed the same the past two years (although look the their roster three years ago) and the same could be said about Detroit. (Once again, look at three years ago.)

    I guess what I’m trying to say is that there’s a new model for winning a title these days, in my book. Make radical rosters changes, give it a couple of years, if it doesn’t work, try again.

    Slow and steady doesn’t get it anymore. Adding a piece here and there and pulling a wait and see will get you a wait and watch on the couch in your living room.

    The reason I bring this up is the radical change of opinion in this forum. I did a little checking, and in a forum poll at the begining of the season, something like %30 of us felt that the Pacers would be playing for the title and another big chunk felt we’d either get to the second round or be in the ECF. The midset was ‘keep these guys together. Now? Well, you know.

    I’m more convinced now than ever, that we should not fear a “blowing up” of the team. (Not that it will happen. Just 3 weeks ago, Bird flat out said he doesn’t plan on any major changes, just shipping out those who are lazy, selfish or have bad attitudes if they don't shape up. )

    Who cares if we make a trade for Garnett (All you JO for Garnett naysayers) and give ourselves a 2-3 year window? Or you Stephen Jackson lovers, so what if he gets dealt. Maybe he’s a one hit wonder and simply had a stern Popovich and the wonder that is Duncan to make him better.

    I guess I’m just venting my possible future aggravation. No matter what noise I hear from the front office or media, I just KNOW we aren’t going to make any changes of note. I see one trade, that’s it. Other than that, I suspect it’ll be business as usual.

    And that scares me.

    I feel maintaining your roster gives you no more leg up on the competition that it does keeping one key player (Nash, Shaq, Dirk, Ben Wallace), throwing caution to the wind and reshuffling the deck every three years or so.

    Which of course leads back into the previous thread about whether or not JO is a franchise guy who you build a team around. Is he? Check out other’s answers in rexrom’s thread.

    Man, I hope we majorly re-tool this roster. But this is the great Midwest, heartland of conservatism and we have a team run by pretty conservative guys. I’m not seeing it.

    Someone convince me my anticipatory frustration is unfounded. Is there any way you REALLY see us making some big trades? How many of you think "blowing up a team" (not just this team. Any team.) is a bad thing?


    >>
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    I wouldn't say that blowing this team up is a bad thing by any means. I just don't expect to because that isn't how Bird and Donnie work.

    You defiantly can blow a team up and do great. The thing that you have to have though is the right coach. Is Rick the right coach? Maybe so, I don't really know for sure.

  3. #3
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Both teams kept the core, made a significant addition, and then re-tooled around what was left.

    I'd LOVE to see us do that. But it won't happen.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    The equivalent would be keeping 3 top guys, like JO, Danny, and Peja and moving everyone else.

    The trouble is, that core is not as good as that of the Suns and Heat, and the other players have less value than, say, a Joe Johnson.

    But in principle, the idea is a good one and opposes the Pistons model of lineup consistency.

    I want quick, smart players. We are near the league's bottom in both areas.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  5. #5
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Do we really have a 'core' of players worth keeping and building around?

    After 'darkside' voting, I felt obligated to ask that question.

    -Bball
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    I expect to see the Pacers make wholesale changes.

    The Mavs also changed almost their entre roster in two years.

    Why is everyone so quick to say "Pacers won't make any significant changes" Everyone is complaining riught now, why not wait until at least the free agent signing period.

    This is not directed at you SE

  7. #7
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I expect to see the Pacers make wholesale changes.

    The Mavs also changed almost their entre roster in two years.

    Why is everyone so quick to say "Pacers won't make any significant changes" Everyone is complaining riught now, why not wait until at least the free agent signing period.

    This is not directed at you SE

    Most people are assuming the Pacers will follow their historical tendency to do very little in the off season when push comes to shove. Not re-signing Eddie Gill and/or Scott Pollard isn't going to count as a key moves in major change.

    -Bball
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Do we really have a 'core' of players worth keeping and building around?

    After 'darkside' voting, I felt obligated to ask that question.

    -Bball
    Well I missed darkside voting, but as of now I see us having a core of JO and Danny.

    So I think we may have to look at getting that "person" to build around via free agency or the draft (and I would have no problem with us trading Mel-Mel and/or Jackson for that right pick, although this years draft isnt going to have any players like that IMO)

  9. #9
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Bball, the fact they it appears Rick is staying should be more evidence that major personnel changes are coming this summer

  10. #10
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that TPTB seem to be saying not to expect major changes.
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  11. #11
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    I'm basing my assumptions on the fact that TPTB seem to be saying not to expect major changes.
    "Are there going to be wholesale changes? No."

    Larry Bird, May 10, 2006.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    I don't think that you can listen to a GM. Saying that we are going to get rid of players X, Y and Z does nothing to help the situation. This is a buisness where you should keep your cards close to your chest.

    I hope and expect changes to be made.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  13. #13
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Bball, the fact they it appears Rick is staying should be more evidence that major personnel changes are coming this summer

    If I was to start a "My Fear Is:" thread, I'd have to say I fear that old habits die hard and when push comes to shove TPTB will not be able to pull the trigger. Whether it's trying to get too much for some players, holding off on a deal/deals until someone else scoops us, or simply deciding to roll the dice on "one more year".

    Injuries = fall back excuse
    Playoffs = Goal #1 met.

    Mix everything together and I wouldn't be surprised to hear LOTS of rumors see lots of smoke... but in the end "Standing pat" (or darn near close to it) winning out.

    Of course if I had any faith in our management system then I'd be agreeing with you because wholesale changes are what is needed both for the on the court product and for the re-energizing of the fanbase.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

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  14. #14
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Well, Bob Hill came into Seattle and announced wholesale changes.

    Pat Riley did the same thing.

    Rick Patino threatened wholesale changes and did it.

    Bird basically said, "I'm telling our guys for the last time, they'd better act better or we'll look a some trades." It seems he wants to gives them a short leash, then he keeps letting out the slack to give them more leeway.

    I just get the feeling that announcing that you ARE going to make changes puts more fear into the knucklesheads than saying, yet again, "just one more mess up..."

    I dunno. I was just reflecting on the season and what may come and I have this sinking feeling we aren't going to do much, other than a single trade.

    I'm in line with Bball's thinking. Historically,we tend to have a wait and see attitude, even when the warning signs are all around us. We won't do jack.
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    Member J_2_Da_IzzO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    IF we dont change this year and have another bad season then I could bet money that Bird will say the same and just give them another chance or few tweaks.

    Hes just not brutal enought o make the changes needed. He has obviously seen Jacksons impact on this team and his negative attitude but seems like hes getting another chance. Tinsleys been given enough chances but hes just no gonna make it. I love him as a player when hes healthy, but he hardly ever is so I just gotta forget bout how good he is when hes healthy.

    I dont think MAJOR changes are needed. Just clever ones.

    Jackson and Tinsley going and adding a starting PG like Andre Miller would be great. I like Freddy aswell but his inability to pass with his feet planted drives me mad so I wont be mad to see him leave. Add another shot blocker or someone that is a threat in that department like Nazr would be good.

    Nazr/Harrison
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    PG - A.Iverson
    SG - K.Bryant
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    C - D.Howard

  16. #16
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    I don't care what Bird, Walsh or Carlisle said, I think there will be wholesale changes

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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    "Are there going to be wholesale changes? No."Larry Bird, May 10, 2006.
    Here's a random thought: Do you think you could dig up any quotes from Riley or the Suns' GM from last summer about their plans for their rosters? Could be interesting to compare them to what's being said here now.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_2_Da_IzzO
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    Hes just not brutal enought o make the changes needed. He has obviously seen Jacksons impact on this team and his negative attitude but seems like hes getting another chance. Tinsleys been given enough chances but hes just no gonna make it. I love him as a player when hes healthy, but he hardly ever is so I just gotta forget bout how good he is when hes healthy.
    Not sure if this is being fair. This offseason (which doesn't even start until after the Finals) is really the first good opportunity Bird is going to get to deal with this post-brawl team. Bird and Walsh rolled the dice on Artest and we all know how that worked out. Fault them for that if you want, but I (and I imagine many of you) was very excited about our chances at the beginning of the year.

    It's pretty evident now that Jax needs to go, and I think Larry knows this and has ever since Artest asked out of Indy and this season imploded. But right now is the first time he's actually really had to address the situation. The drawn-out timeframe of the Artest deal pretty much held the team hostage for months, and by the time of the trade deadline, there was really no reason to trade Jax, especially considering he was the only guy consistently not injured and because it's tough to get fair value midseason when you're "selling" rather than "buying." Better to wait until now when teams are trying to retool for next season instead of trying to just add assets for a Playoff push.

    Quote Originally Posted by J_2_Da_IzzO
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    Jackson and Tinsley going and adding a starting PG like Andre Miller would be great. I like Freddy aswell but his inability to pass with his feet planted drives me mad so I wont be mad to see him leave. Add another shot blocker or someone that is a threat in that department like Nazr would be good.
    Easier said than done. Tinsley's value is at an all-time low. We're not gonna get much for this guy.

    And I'm pretty sure every other GM in this league saw Stephen Jackson throwing haymakers at the back of some guys head in the stands that night. I think we all over value both Jackson's talent and what we can get for him. He's really a poor man's Ricky Davis at this point, and his "character" issues are--to put it mildly--shady.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    You make great points as always Scott.

    I do think, in spite of what they say in public, the Pacers will definitely move some of their problem children if they get a chance. They are playing a little bit of liar's poker I am sure, but I can't imagine they are fooling anybody. I actually think somebody might take a chance on Tinsley, because he is talented, and because the amount of point guards with his ability are few in the league.

    Jack on the other hand, I think we are stuck with, unless he is packaged with somebody else. Tinsley isn't enough sweet to dilute the bitter of Jack, so sending them together isn't a viable option. You would have to send him with O'neal or Granger, and we aren't going to do that.

    As much as I dislike Jack, I do think he could be valuable coming off of the bench. He is too inconsistent to start IMO. We just need a strong leader and coach to keep him in check. He doesn't seem to respect Carlisle or anybody else on the team, but management and the team should be able to deal with that. If that doesn't work, then you bit the bullet and trade him for whatever scraps you can get, but then you really just replace one problem with another one. If he behaves, then we can either keep him, or his stock value will increase.

    That being said, there are plenty of other guys we can/could move, and we should be able to make this team better. This team has just been tainted by bad attitudes and bad habits. It is possible that coaching, management, and time will take care of this, but I don't think it is likely. We don't need to clean the entire slate, but we do need to purge at least some of our bad apples. This team is diseased, and instead of anti-biotics, it needs some "anti-psychotics." I think it is too fargone to heal on its own.

    I think TPTB know this, and I think they are concerned. I don't think they are concerned about making the changes to win a championship, but I think they are concerend about filling the seats. As is, I don't think this team will do that. They have lost/alienated alot of the fans, and most people aren't going to pay their hard earned money to watch a bunch of whiny underachievers.
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  20. #20
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Everyone seems to be deciding who the worst of the batch is and then thinking how we could replace that player (or couple of players). It's a 'bad apple' search and replace mission...

    BUT... was that what the other teams did when they went on a mission to 'fix' or 'upgrade' their team? Did they have a bad apple or two to cleanse from the apple barrel? Or were they just looking to make an already good team better? ...Or find a better compliment of players?

    Is just clearing out a bad apple or two really going to 'fix' anything? When you're rotten to the core perhaps the fix goes deeper than what many here are proposing.

    This whole thing is pretty depressing if you ask me.... and it's not something our normal management style will fix if historical patterns are followed. That's why it's so depressing. And now that we need to act quickly and decisively we instead have "GM by committee". A donkey is a horse designed by a committee. We need one voice and one vision.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  21. #21

    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Everyone seems to be deciding who the worst of the batch is and then thinking how we could replace that player (or couple of players). It's a 'bad apple' search and replace mission...

    BUT... was that what the other teams did when they went on a mission to 'fix' or 'upgrade' their team? Did they have a bad apple or two to cleanse from the apple barrel? Or were they just looking to make an already good team better? ...Or find a better compliment of players?

    Is just clearing out a bad apple or two really going to 'fix' anything? When you're rotten to the core perhaps the fix goes deeper than what many here are proposing.

    This whole thing is pretty depressing if you ask me.... and it's not something our normal management style will fix if historical patterns are followed. That's why it's so depressing. And now that we need to act quickly and decisively we instead have "GM by committee". A donkey is a horse designed by a committee. We need one voice and one vision.

    -Bball
    Yeah, but how many key guys did the Suns shuffle? I don't know anything about Leonardo, but I'm pretty sure that Nash, Marion, and Stoudamire are the core of the team. Sure, you could send out all of our B players and swap them for somebody elses, but I'm not sure it makes a big difference to our team. And since our team has been so injured, it is almost like we get a new player every night! And alas... one taken away.

    We are also talking about a team with Steve Nash at the point. That is another unique feature of the Suns. He is just one of those guys who is going to play a certain way and make other pieces easy to fit in. Nash is everything the Pacers aren't. He's healthy, a good basketball player with high IQ, unselfish, and he makes others around him better.

    I can't tell you what I want TBTB to do with this team b/c it depends on the day you ask me. Today I'm in a flush the toilet mood. I so crave to see something different that I'd almost not care who they brought in. Wait a minute... I just remembered Isiah Thomas. So, I do care, but some changes for change sake are okay with me. I mean, is this team's championship hopes riding on Jeff Foster or David Harrison? I'm more down on Foster than I've ever been and I'm not sure why. His offensive ineptness just really seems to have been on display this year.

    But, I really don't think we are going to see a JO trade. It will be deemed too risky this year. But if the train gets off track this year, anything could happen.
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  22. #22

    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    I don't know why the Suns are being used as the poster child for blowing up a team. They didn't get to the finals. They lost in the WCFs. Same place we were two years ago before Ron "blew this team up."

  23. #23
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Both teams kept the core, made a significant addition, and then re-tooled around what was left.

    I'd LOVE to see us do that. But it won't happen.


    Call me cynical, but I don't think that our "core" is as desirable to build around and re-tool around as a Nash/Marion core or a Shaq/Wade core.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    As long as Jermaine and Danny stay, I'm fine with blowing this team up.

  25. #25
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Who says "blowing a team up" is a bad thing?

    I don't think there is anything wrong with blowing it up. It needs to be blown up.
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