Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 40

Thread: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Grammar?

  1. #1
    woman without a team
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,055

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Does seeing Doug/OH say "be his job" fustrate anyone else?
    I'm assuming Doug is doing it to be funny. When Larry butchers the English language it's because he doesn't know any better.

  2. #2
    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Age
    45
    Posts
    1,175

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by grace
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm assuming Doug is doing it to be funny. When Larry butchers the English language it's because he doesn't know any better.
    I was trying to be - yes... did not mean to fustrate anyone

    And Jay - I love you man!
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

  3. #3
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by grace
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'm assuming Doug is doing it to be funny. When Larry butchers the English language it's because he doesn't know any better.
    Which is why I've never liked it when people make fun of people for it.

  4. #4
    Banned Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,408

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Which is why I've never liked it when people make fun of people for it.
    I could understand this sentiment if he were a child, mentally handicapped, or even just socially disadvantaged in some way (economical for instance).

    But he's a full grown adult with plenty of money and opportunity to correct his failings.

  5. #5
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Fool
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I could understand this sentiment if he were a child, mentally handicapped, or even just socially disadvantaged in some way (economical for instance).

    But he's a full grown adult male with plenty of money and opportunity to correct his failings.
    He grew up in an average economic family (if that; I'm not totally sure) in rural Indiana in the 60's and 70's. Becoming an NBA superstar doesn't change the way you talk. Hell, just listen to how a lot of today's stars talk. Proper English, it is not. I've worked with people that talk similarly to him, and they're intelligent. It comes with the territory for some people.

  6. #6
    Banned Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,408

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He grew up in an average economic family (if that; I'm not totally sure) in rural Indiana in the 60's and 70's. Becoming an NBA superstar doesn't change the way you talk. Hell, just listen to how a lot of today's stars talk. Proper English, it is not. I've worked with people that talk similarly to him, and they're intelligent. It comes with the territory for some people.
    I understand that he speaks the way he was brought up to do so, but its not something that he would be unable to overcome. Its not that he physically can't speak properly, its that he doesn't and having the means to do so chooses not to change it. IMO, that makes it fair to criticize.

    Though the value of such criticism is up for debate.

  7. #7
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Fool
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I understand that he speaks the way he was brought up to do so, but its not something that he would be unable to overcome. Its not that he physically can't speak properly, its that he doesn't and having the means to do so chooses not to change it. IMO, that makes it fair to criticize.
    He shouldn't be expected to "overcome" it.

    Though the value of such criticism is up for debate.
    I'm glad you mentioned this.

  8. #8
    Banned Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,408

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He shouldn't be expected to "overcome" it.
    Why exactly?

  9. #9
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Fool
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Why exactly?
    I think it's an elitist, condescending attitude to do so. Now I know DougOH is just having fun with it, but the general idea doesn't settle with me. I don't know what else to say about it besides that.

  10. #10
    Banned Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,408

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    I thought typing LyK tHiS made 1 LEE7.

  11. #11
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He shouldn't be expected to "overcome" it.
    That's preposterous.

    Every once in a while I demonstrate my Bedford/ Greenwood/ Hoosier accent to my co-workers - gives them a chuckle.

    I sure as hell wouldn't put my Greenwood twang on display in front of client. I'd sound like a dummie. And in my case, clients wouldn't want to pay my billing rate (which is obnoxiously high and unfortunately the company keeps far more of it than I do) if I sounded like an uneducated clod.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  12. #12
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,030

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's preposterous.

    Every once in a while I demonstrate my Bedford/ Greenwood/ Hoosier accent to my co-workers - gives them a chuckle.

    I sure as hell wouldn't put my Greenwood twang on display in front of client. I'd sound like a dummie. And in my case, clients wouldn't want to pay my billing rate (which is obnoxiously high and unfortunately the company keeps far more of it than I do) if I sounded like an uneducated clod.
    HEY!!!


    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  13. #13

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's preposterous.

    Every once in a while I demonstrate my Bedford/ Greenwood/ Hoosier accent to my co-workers - gives them a chuckle.

    I sure as hell wouldn't put my Greenwood twang on display in front of client. I'd sound like a dummie. And in my case, clients wouldn't want to pay my billing rate (which is obnoxiously high and unfortunately the company keeps far more of it than I do) if I sounded like an uneducated clod.
    Let's be real here. How educated Larry Bird does or doesn't sound is of little importance.

  14. #14
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Let's be real here. How educated Larry Bird does or doesn't sound is of little importance.
    Thank you.

    God, I'm agreeing with you now? I have to go...

  15. #15
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,046

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Fool
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I understand that he speaks the way he was brought up to do so, but its not something that he would be unable to overcome. Its not that he physically can't speak properly, its that he doesn't and having the means to do so chooses not to change it. IMO, that makes it fair to criticize.

    Though the value of such criticism is up for debate.
    Do you speak with perfect diction? I expect not, because most people don't. Unless you do what right have you got to criticize those who speak less perfectly than yourself? And why have you not made an effort to overcome it?

    Never thought about it that way did you?

  16. #16
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Let's be real here. How educated Larry Bird does or doesn't sound is of little importance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Thank you.

    God, I'm agreeing with you now? I have to go...
    Maybe so for Larry Bird personally.

    But there are plenty of business people that I've interracted with that think Larry Bird's "intellect" (or lack thereof) is typical of someone from southern or south-central Indiana (and not somebody they're going to look to for business/ financial advise).

    He portrays (and is a leading example of) an intellectual stereotype that many of us have worked hard to overcome. Maybe it doesn't matter to Larry Bird's career or to the Pacers' success if he sounds like an uneducated bafoon. But Fool's comments were spot-on correct, he could choose to overcome this but he's chosen not to. Hasn't really hurt him a bit, but as a very famous person he certainly has perpetuated a stereotype that hurts the rest of us at times.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  17. #17
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,046

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's preposterous.

    Every once in a while I demonstrate my Bedford/ Greenwood/ Hoosier accent to my co-workers - gives them a chuckle.

    I sure as hell wouldn't put my Greenwood twang on display in front of client. I'd sound like a dummie. And in my case, clients wouldn't want to pay my billing rate (which is obnoxiously high and unfortunately the company keeps far more of it than I do) if I sounded like an uneducated clod.
    No it's not. Apparently you have elitist clients that think the way a person speaks is a barometer of whether they can do the job or not.

    Plus some people sound like dummie's on purpose to disarm other people.

  18. #18
    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Boulder, CO
    Age
    45
    Posts
    1,175

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He portrays (and is a leading example of) an intellectual stereotype that many of us have worked hard to overcome. Maybe it doesn't matter to Larry Bird's career or to the Pacers' success if he sounds like an uneducated bafoon. But Fool's comments were spot-on correct, he could choose to overcome this but he's chosen not to. Hasn't really hurt him a bit, but as a very famous person he certainly has perpetuated a stereotype that hurts the rest of us at times.
    When I moved to CT I heard - oh... Indiana... Larry Bird is from there. (Code for you must be a hayseed)

    I was quick to point out that I was from David Letterman's Indiana.
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

  19. #19
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    No it's not. Apparently you have elitist clients that think the way a person speaks is a barometer of whether they can do the job or not.
    Maybe so. After all, they're already smart people and they're hiring someone to give them specific advise. You're going to want an educated person for that, and if you don't even sound like you've got a high school education its hard to convince somebody that you really are smart. Awfully hard to call that "Elitist", its a fact of life.

    Plus some people sound like dummie's on purpose to disarm other people.
    Sure, I've seen that from people that are "already" C.E.O. Works wonders for someone with "southern charm" or for someone in sales. But it also works very badly if you're trying to work for the CFO or an I-banker or an audit or consulting partner.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  20. #20
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug in OH
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    When I moved to CT I heard - oh... Indiana... Larry Bird is from there. (Code for you must be a hayseed)

    I was quick to point out that I was from David Letterman's Indiana.
    Yeah, but I really *am* from Larry Bird's Indiana. So I've tried that line but I think it always worked better in NYC than here. Anyway, that line is usually better than pointing out that I'm from John Cougar Mellencamp's Indiana, even if his aunt was one of my English teachers.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  21. #21
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,615

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's preposterous.

    Every once in a while I demonstrate my Bedford/ Greenwood/ Hoosier accent to my co-workers - gives them a chuckle.

    I sure as hell wouldn't put my Greenwood twang on display in front of client. I'd sound like a dummie. And in my case, clients wouldn't want to pay my billing rate (which is obnoxiously high and unfortunately the company keeps far more of it than I do) if I sounded like an uneducated clod.

    Yes, but you're just an average joe, Larry Bird isn't.

    I'm guessing that in your profession, you have to make your own reputation and impress your clients, which is why you say you have to adjust your "twang."

    Larry Bird made his reputation years ago. Like him or not, he is percieved as a winner around the league. Bird is respected. He was a champion as a player. The teams he coached were successful. Bird was pinned "The Hick from French Lick" years ago, how he talks now isn't going to change that.

  22. #22
    Banned Fool's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    2,408

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Do you speak with perfect diction? I expect not, because most people don't. Unless you do what right have you got to criticize those who speak less perfectly than yourself? And why have you not made an effort to overcome it?

    Never thought about it that way did you?
    ... of course I have. It's rather hard to go through one's life without doing so at least once. I would hope that very few are truely so oblivious as to never have done so. But no, like most human beings I don't have perfect diction nor the vocabularly I wish I did.

    Since you seem to have lost the course of this strain of the thread. I am only defending whether or not Bird's manner of speaking is a legitiment target of criticism. I have not criticized him for it as I myself have heard the man speak maybe 5 times total so I can't really say I've noticed him doing so poorly.

    As for what "right" I (or anyone without perfect diction, I assume) have to criticize him for his poor speech. As I said, I've rarely ever heard the man, but if his speech is so poor as to make him sound unintelligent I would say that any of the public has a right to criticize the man on his speaking since he's taken a job that involves speaking to the public. It's not "elitiest" to ask someone in his role to have a minimum level of public speaking ability (for truely its probably just his public discourse that anyone cares about). It's simply an expectation of his job. The man is an executive in a multi-million dollar operation. He's responsible for making decisions that effect dozens if not thousands of people (depending on if you count fans as being "effected" by his decisions) and millions of dollars. Its in no way to much to expect that he know how to talk. Just as it wouldn't be too much to expect him not to spit or pick his nose while addressing the public or the media.

    That being said, you asked if I'd tried to overcome (by the way, I'm sorry I used that word originally as I feel its far to dramatic for the situation) my own speech failings. Indeed I have. I happen to have been born with a clef lip and palate. As a child and young adult I had quite a bit more difficulty even pronouncing certain ordinary english sounds, hard "g"s and "k"s for example. I took weekly (and at times bi- and even tri-weekly) speech therapy sessions to "overcome" this shortcomming of mine. Just like many things, it wasn't very hard it just took a good deal of time, practice, patience, and attention. Having said that, there are a number of other areas in which I would most likely fall short of the standards of others and if I took a job that required one of these then I would expect others to criticize me for those failings should I choose to simply allow or ignore them and not correct or improve them.

  23. #23
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yes, but you're just an average joe, Larry Bird isn't.

    I'm guessing that in your profession, you have to make your own reputation and impress your clients, which is why you say you have to adjust your "twang."

    Larry Bird made his reputation years ago. Like him or not, he is percieved as a winner around the league. Bird is respected. He was a champion as a player. The teams he coached were successful. Bird was pinned "The Hick from French Lick" years ago, how he talks now isn't going to change that.
    You've 100% missed the point.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  24. #24
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,046

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Fool
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    ... of course I have. It's rather hard to go through one's life without doing so at least once. I would hope that very few are truely so oblivious as to never have done so. But no, like most human beings I don't have perfect diction nor the vocabularly I wish I did.

    Since you seem to have lost the course of this strain of the thread. I am only defending whether or not Bird's manner of speaking is a legitiment target of criticism. I have not criticized him for it as I myself have heard the man speak maybe 5 times total so I can't really say I've noticed him doing so poorly.

    As for what "right" I (or anyone without perfect diction, I assume) have to criticize him for his poor speech. As I said, I've rarely ever heard the man, but if his speech is so poor as to make him sound unintelligent I would say that any of the public has a right to criticize the man on his speaking since he's taken a job that involves speaking to the public. It's not "elitiest" to ask someone in his role to have a minimum level of public speaking ability (for truely its probably just his public discourse that anyone cares about). It's simply an expectation of his job. The man is an executive in a multi-million dollar operation. He's responsible for making decisions that effect dozens if not thousands of people (depending on if you count fans as being "effected" by his decisions) and millions of dollars. Its in no way to much to expect that he know how to talk. Just as it wouldn't be too much to expect him not to spit or pick his nose while addressing the public or the media.

    That being said, you asked if I'd tried to overcome (by the way, I'm sorry I used that word originally as I feel its far to dramatic for the situation) my own speech failings. Indeed I have. I happen to have been born with a clef lip and palate. As a child and young adult I had quite a bit more difficulty even pronouncing certain ordinary english sounds, hard "g"s and "k"s for example. I took weekly (and at times bi- and even tri-weekly) speech therapy sessions to "overcome" this shortcomming of mine. Just like many things, it wasn't very hard it just took a good deal of time, practice, patience, and attention. Having said that, there are a number of other areas in which I would most likely fall short of the standards of others and if I took a job that required one of these then I would expect others to criticize me for those failings should I choose to simply allow or ignore them and not correct or improve them.
    BRAVO! GOOD FOR YOU! I meant that!

    EDIT; I'm reading the novel, The Twelfth Card, by Jeffery Deaver. On page 22 there's a sentence that I thought fit our subject. "Given his own situation, Lincoln Rhyme didn't have any patience when somebody groused about physical imperfections like to much girth or to little hair." (Rhyme is paralyzed)

    How does that pertain to our subject? Just that I think you are a good example of someone overcoming a lot, so you are less tolerant of others with a bit of the same problem.

    It all depends on the situation. For example you get a deep cut, it's a problem so you do something about it, but a scratch you will probably ignore. It's somewhat the same with speaking. You have a problem and you do something about it, whereas if it's not a problem nothing is done.

    Many don't have a problem with the way Larry Bird speaks, and obviously neither does he.

  25. #25
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    44
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Does Bird Deserve Criticism For His Performance?: Conrad speaks out

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Many don't have a problem with the way Larry Bird speaks, and obviously neither does he.
    True. And many of us do have a problem with the way Larry Bird speaks because it can reflect poorly on the rest of us Hoosiers that are educated and don't want to face the "hayseed" stereptype that Bird perpetuates.

    Both sides of the argument have validity.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •