Results 1 to 23 of 23

Thread: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,762

    Default 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    I want to do a position by position breakdown of where I think we stand at all of our spots on the floor.

    Normally I would start this off with either the Center spot or the point guard spot on the floor but because, IMO, this is going to be decided here in the very near future (one way or the other) I want to start off this year by going a differant route.

    The coach.

    First things first we must throw out our extreme views of Rick Carlisle to really look at where we stand with our coach. So in other words throw out the Jermainiac view that he can do no right & throw out the Uncle Buck view that he can do no wrong.

    The truth is in the middle & together we will try & find it.

    Let's just do a quick review of Rick's tenure with the team. He took a team that had no real structure & in his first season here put that team as the top winning team for the NBA for the regular season. They also took the eventual champs to 6 games before the season was cut off.

    The following season he once again had the team starting off with a very good record and in fact looked to be on thier way to at least matching the season before for regular season wins.

    Then the brawl occured, then injurys occured.

    Rick was faced with a task that no other coach in the history of the NBA has been asked to do & that is win with 3 starters being suspended for longer than any other time. On top of that a slew of injurys & illnesses made it so that on certain nights of the week Rick had no idea who was going to play until game time.

    Rick was able to take that team, with the help of a retiring Reggie Miller & a reaquired Dale Davis, & make the playoffs. Not only did they make the playoffs but they won thier first round series in 7 games & then went on to take the runner up to the champs to 6 games.

    This past season on paper looked once again to be a team that should have a high regular season winning %. The early season started off fairly well but there were very few dominating wins. But the season started to turn in one game & in one crucial quarter IMO. We went to Milwaukee on 11/12 & blew a fourth quarter lead & lost the game on a last second shot at the buzzer. This in & of itself was not that big of a deal, teams lose leads all of the time & we've been beat before by a last second shot. What was differant in this loss was that several of our players missed crucial free throws down the stretch & it got to the point where the Bucks were fouling us & hoping we would miss. Which we did. Instead of inserting a top 5 free throw guy into the game (Saras) & at that time the # 1 free throw shooter in the NBA (Croshere) Carlisle never made the substitutions. Although Cro had missed two free throws already early in the game.

    The reason any of this matters is because it was the first time that Rick had been questioned by both the media & his own players about why he didn't make changes in the game.

    The Pacers then went on to be blown out the very next night by the Bobcats. After that they went on a little run but in all honesty it was never the same. Eventually Ron Artest demanded a trade & eventually got one but not before missing almost 6 weeks of on floor play & again the injury & illness bug hit our team.

    Through it all Rick still managed to keep the team at .500% for the season & we still made the playoffs although we were eleminated in the first round 4-2.

    That's just a brief synopsis of what has happened, if you want to go further with it feel free to add your thoughts to this.

    Now let's look at Rick's coaching style & trust me I'm going to try & be as objective about this as I can be.

    On the defensive end.

    Rick prefers a straight up man to man defense. In his three years here I think we have employed a zone defense about 10 times (two of which came in the post season this year). From as best as I can tell we do not run a lot of traps on defense & while we do double the ball quite often I don't know that we really apply much pressure.

    Rick's defense, IMO, is not designed to create turnovers. It is designed to limit shot selection.

    Rick does place a strong emphasis on defense & I believe from day one of training camp he begins teaching this.

    Rick does adapt, contrary to popular belief, his style to suite the players he has on the floor. When Ron was here Ron was able to free lance the passing lanes much more than what Rick allows Danny or Fred. If Foster is in the game we front the post whenever we have a real center in the game we generally play strong side post defense.

    Ricks offense.

    This is where the complaints generally arise about Rick from both his players & the fans.

    Whenever Rick as a strong post player he tends to want to focus on running a 1-4 weak side isolation play. Also we have seen Rick slow down the pace of a game, even when it is to the Pacers advantage to go faster, so that we can have better clock & shot management.

    This has cause players to frequently break plays or as in Artest case break his brain.

    The good to this style is simple. It works, often times because we have a dominate post player (O'Neal) he is able to get off shots he wants & whenever we have a cutter he often times will find them going to the hoop. However this is also easy to defend if we do not have outside weapons as teams just double down on him & dare one of our other players to hit a shot.

    Now here is where some (well Uncle Buck) will pull their hair out. Even though it works, many fans just can't stand it because at the end of the day while effective it's just down right boring to watch. It takes away from the team game that so many of us love to watch. However the argument that U.B. (& others I guess) will use with justification IMO is that what is more exciting that wins? It is a winning style during the regular season & in theory is should work in the post season as well.

    Now before we skip past the offense I want to point out one other thing. Just like his defense Rick does adjust his style to the players on the floor. When Ron & J.O. were out & we had a smaller quicker lineup you saw a lot of ball movement & player movement on the floor & very few isolation plays ran.

    Never forget one thing, Rick was the offensive co-ordinator during Larry Birds tenure as head coach & those were some of the more fluid offensive teams you will ever see play. That team did not just rely on 1-4 isolation plays however they did play a lot of post up offense with one small differance. Instead of using a big man like O'Neal in the post that team used Mark Jackson & Jalen Rose in the post to initiate our offensive movement. It worked like a charm & very few teams could stop that.

    Now one last part of our offense & this part is also a sore spot for many people.

    In many ways Rick's offense as we've seen it since his return to Indiana has been nothing more than the beginning point for his next defensive stand. Offensive rebounds are sacrificed so as no easy transition baskets can be scored. Time clock management is eployed often times to burn down the game clock to give the other team less time with the ball.

    Also Rick by limiting ball movement does cut down on turn over potential.

    Intangibles.

    For whatever reason a lot of players do not like playing for Rick Carlisle. Some of it is the style of offense he runs, some of it is simply the don't like him. This is not new either as he was not given the head coaching job after Bird left because the players did not want him as the coach. Detroit players have also made statements about Rick as well. Ron Artest listed it as the prime reason for not wanting to be here & had made several statements about this for the three years they were together.

    Rick has one style to his coaching. Cool methodical & calculating. These are great traits btw & are probably the only reason why the team got threw the brawl year as well as it did.

    However there are times your team needs a motivator & yes for lack of a better term a cheerleader or even an @ss kicker. From every report we've ever read, heard or seen Rick is just not that type of person. In fact I think that is one of the reason why this last season was more of a struggle than it should have been. Rick really was not able to do a rally around the flag type moment & thus stem the losing that occured in the latter months of the season.

    Also there has been the issue of equal treatment from the coaching staff. Now to be honest with you this really might be more of a management issue than Rick's problem because I don't know how much support he would have gotten from Bird if he wanted to suspend Jackson for some games whenever Jax would yell at him when he was taken out of a game.

    But either way, it mattered.

    What does the future hold, what should the future hold?

    Bird has already given him the seal of approval or the kiss of death. Depending on which way you believe. However one thing that TPTB F'd up big time on when issuing the "support the coach" speal was thier timing. If this is what Bird believed & if he thought that the players were trying to get the coach fired (which once again goes back to how well do the players like him) then why didn't he step up about a month before that & support his coach. Now the honest answer to that would be that maybe he did & we don't know it because we are not in the locker room. But then that begs the quesiton of if he did that why did he then go to the press with it leading me to beleive he did not do it any sooner than he appeared to have.

    I could see Carlisle walk away from the team citing family issues or even just coming out & saying to much has happened for him to stay & who could blame him.

    I could even see Bird still letting him go & not even feeling bad about saying they were going to keep him because they can always say that after they said that they saw things that they didn't think would work out or whatever.

    Now having gone through all of that what do I think should happen?

    I like Rick as a coach. He doesn't emphasize rebounding nearly enough for my taste & I certainly could live without the isolation plays. However his defense is a fine structually sound defense & if done properly does not allow any easy baskets.

    However I think his time has come & gone. I just don't believe for one min. that the Pacers can trade away all of our players or even the majority of our players & I just think he has lost his voice with them.

    I do believe that as the season went on he lost the team & that players were turning deaf ears towards him.

    Scott H. touched on this the other day & I think it does ring true. If the fans see Rick on the sidelines next season it is going to seem like same old same old to them.

    We went away from isolation basketball until Jermaine started to get ready to return & then slowly but surley we added more & more clear outs each game until by the playoffs that was our # 1 offense once again.

    Also there is the matter of Center usage with Rick. I understand Harrison to a point (I disagree with him on it but I understand) but what I do not understand & probably will never understand is his lack of use for Pollard.

    However it is safe to say that not many, if any, coach's could have done as well as he has for as long as he did under the circumstances here in Indiana.

    For both Ricks sake & even the teams sake I think it's time for a new voice.

    However, I suspect he will return.

  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,353

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Now here is where some (well Uncle Buck) will pull their hair out. Even though it works, many fans just can't stand it because at the end of the day while effective it's just down right boring to watch. It takes away from the team game that so many of us love to watch. However the argument that U.B. (& others I guess) will use with justification IMO is that what is more exciting that wins? It is a winning style during the regular season & in theory is should work in the post season as well.
    :2cents:
    It might work if we didn't have to pretend JO is something he's not... But IMHO a big part of the problem, and why Rick lost the team, is it doesn't work. JO isn't up to the task. ...Certainly not as we're currently constructed anyway. ...But yet we kept going back to it even tho we had success playing in other ways.

    You might sprinkle in a little of the 'playing favorites' complaint into that as well.

    If we were clearly superior with it then maybe players get into line and buy into the system and go with the flow. But we weren't clearly better and then things got even worse as the players lost faith in the system/coach (and probably lost faith in JO as well).

    I need to get to bed right now but I'd like to read this again and comment further a little later.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  3. #3
    Member RWB's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    6,344

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    I think Rick is done as coach. He'll move into an office position this year or next, eventually taking Bird's position.

    As stated by Peck I could see family reasons used for the change at coach.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  4. #4
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,039

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    This is an excellent analysis as always.

    I just want to point out one thing.

    Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

    I believe our outside shooting was worse this year than any time in the past 5 years.

    If our outside shots were falling at a greater rate than they fell through most of this season, do you think that the in-out capability of the style Rick runs would have looked and felt more exciting?

    If our outside shooters were more consistent do you think more plays would have focused on them?

    Even in the games we won when JO was not present, we lived or died by the jump shot. Because there was no inside post solution, we never knew if the games we lost due to horrible shooting would have been won had we gone to the inside post more often.

    So, is it this style because Rick can't handle anything else, or is it this style because Rick could not trust the players on the perimeter to get the job done?

    How would people have felt if we had lost more games, maybe not made the playoffs, but had an outside offense that had more opportunities to clank shots for long (usually defensive) rebounds?
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  5. #5
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,903

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Good analysis Peck. I don't agree with all of it, but I agree with enough of it to just let it go.

    As all of you know I came out a few days ago and predicted that Rick would not coach this team next season for whatever reason, and I also said that he should not coach this team next season. It is just time for a change and yes I agree with the 3 year or 4 year rule. That is shelf-life of 95% of the NBA coaches. Just think how often NBA players have to hear their coach talk.

    There are 18 timeouts per game counting the four .20 second timeouts, 18 x 82 +8 (preseason) plus the Pacers have played an average of 12 playoff games the past three seasons. That averages out to 2160 timeouts per season or 6480 over the past three seasons. So most of these players have sat through 6480 huddles with this coach. You hear you're coach more than you do anyone else in your life. So yes the 3 or 4 year rule is a factor in all this. This isn't football where unless you are the quarterback you don't really have much comminucation with the head coach.

    One thing I would like to say though, Rick is 10 times better than Isiah Thomas. It is not even worthy of debate IMO. Let's just see how many more years Rick coaches vs whether Isiah ever coaches again.

    Two last things:

    1) If anyone remembers I came out 3 years ago and strongly predicted that Isiah would be fired. (too bad the posts from then are gone) But there was silence from DW for about 4 weeks until he came out the Friday before Memorial day weekend and at least publically supported Isiah (that is when PFFL lost it and is still lost) But Donnie usually comes out in the media and holds a press conference of some sort within 10 days or so after the last game. But he didn't in 2003, he said it was due to family reasons and those were legitmate, but I also think he was aware that Bird was looking to come back, so he privately put the Isiah thing on holds - he let Bird handle it.

    2) So what is going on right now. Are they in high level discussions with Rick on a buyout or are they discussing a contract extension. No Rick is probably in some island somewhere and I suspect will meet with DW and LB next week sometime. One thing I'm 100% convinced of is either Rick will get a contract extension or he'll won't be the coach next season.

    Keep something else in mind, when Bird was hired, he spoke with the players and decided that the players could no longer play for Isiah, well I think Bird has met with the players a this week and I believe he knows these players can't play for Rick any longer. Bird has seen it and now he's heard it. So unless he believes he can change most of the players on the current team, Bird knows what has to be done, so the next two weeks should be interesting.

    I think unless Bird believes he can change 9-10 players, I think Rick is gone.

  6. #6
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,397

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    On the defensive end.

    Rick prefers a straight up man to man defense. In his three years here I think we have employed a zone defense about 10 times (two of which came in the post season this year). From as best as I can tell we do not run a lot of traps on defense & while we do double the ball quite often I don't know that we really apply much pressure.

    Rick's defense, IMO, is not designed to create turnovers. It is designed to limit shot selection.

    Rick does place a strong emphasis on defense & I believe from day one of training camp he begins teaching this.

    Rick does adapt, contrary to popular belief, his style to suite the players he has on the floor. When Ron was here Ron was able to free lance the passing lanes much more than what Rick allows Danny or Fred. If Foster is in the game we front the post whenever we have a real center in the game we generally play strong side post defense.
    I've pretty much thought the opposite. I think Rick's D is designed to create turnovers. I think he teachs the players to be great one on one defenders and hopes to get them to exploit an offensive player's wekaness.

    A defense like the Spurs or Nets employ limits shot selection, imo. They sag into a zone at any hint of penetration and try to make you a jump shooting team. I've actually been pretty impressed with that type of D. Pistons were using it quite a bit till they got a new coach.

    Ricks offense.

    This is where the complaints generally arise about Rick from both his players & the fans.

    Whenever Rick as a strong post player he tends to want to focus on running a 1-4 weak side isolation play. Also we have seen Rick slow down the pace of a game, even when it is to the Pacers advantage to go faster, so that we can have better clock & shot management.

    This has cause players to frequently break plays or as in Artest case break his brain.

    The good to this style is simple. It works, often times because we have a dominate post player (O'Neal) he is able to get off shots he wants & whenever we have a cutter he often times will find them going to the hoop. However this is also easy to defend if we do not have outside weapons as teams just double down on him & dare one of our other players to hit a shot.
    I highlighted my biggest complaint about it, BUT....

    I will say, done effectively, I think it can be a joy to watch. I'll continue in a minute..

    Now here is where some (well Uncle Buck) will pull their hair out. Even though it works, many fans just can't stand it because at the end of the day while effective it's just down right boring to watch. It takes away from the team game that so many of us love to watch. However the argument that U.B. (& others I guess) will use with justification IMO is that what is more exciting that wins? It is a winning style during the regular season & in theory is should work in the post season as well.
    I think it does and can, but, to me, it takes a dominant big man, not a very good one. To make ana analogy that everyone can relate to, it's the same thing Houston used to win a title with Hakeem. They used Mario Elie, Casell and Maxwell to punish from the outside. I thought it was pretty fun to watch, but it was predicated on an unstoppable big man...which we do not have. I think Rick is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole when he forces this type of offense.

    (More recently, I think Minnesota did a team on the same model when they went to the western conference finals, with Garnett in the role of Hakeem and Cassel resuming his former role, aided by Sczerbiak and Hoiberg.)

    Now before we skip past the offense I want to point out one other thing. Just like his defense Rick does adjust his style to the players on the floor. When Ron & J.O. were out & we had a smaller quicker lineup you saw a lot of ball movement & player movement on the floor & very few isolation plays ran.
    I won't quote the rest of what you said becasue I agree %100. I think he's good at adapting his roster. It's adapting midgame that seems to throw him off and is my problem with him.


    R
    ick has one style to his coaching. Cool methodical & calculating. These are great traits btw & are probably the only reason why the team got threw the brawl year as well as it did.

    However there are times your team needs a motivator & yes for lack of a better term a cheerleader or even an @ss kicker. From every report we've ever read, heard or seen Rick is just not that type of person. In fact I think that is one of the reason why this last season was more of a struggle than it should have been. Rick really was not able to do a rally around the flag type moment & thus stem the losing that occured in the latter months of the season.
    This is another issue I have with Rick. I don't think he knows how to deal with young players. Kind of the Larry Brown syndrome. Look how he jacked Saras around. Look at his usage of Harrison. Remember his love of Curry in Detroit and rumbling of wanting to bring him here? I think Rick is much, much better suited for a team like SA, or Miami. I think Rick is an Xs and Os guy and needs vets to execute his plans.

    I think one reason that Granger has worked out, so far, is that Danny appears to be preturnaturally mature. Once agin, another reason that I think Rick doesn't need to be here. I think he is a GREAT coach. I just don't like the fit here.

    At this moment.

    As I've said, if management totally commits to him and brings in players that he truly covets, some his his matures that he likes so well, may be a different story. So how much do Walsh/Bird committ to Rick's "vision."

    Scott H. touched on this the other day & I think it does ring true. If the fans see Rick on the sidelines next season it is going to seem like same old same old to them.

    We went away from isolation basketball until Jermaine started to get ready to return & then slowly but surley we added more & more clear outs each game until by the playoffs that was our # 1 offense once again.
    Not to pat myself on the back, but I just knew it was coming. It will be the same old, same old if he's back next year. Rick knows what got him where he is today and he's going to ride that, no matter what, don't you think?


    For both Ricks sake & even the teams sake I think it's time for a new voice.

    However, I suspect he will return.
    He'll be back. I think our only hope is a total commitment to Ricks' vision of what he wants to do. I don't think he's comfortable with young guys. Bring him in some vets, if that's what he thinks will work best. Bird obvious wanted Saras here ( I do, too!), but if you aren't going to use him properly and as he's built his career playing, style-wise, then trade him. Same for Harrison. Trade him to some promising young team and get your PJ Brown, or Clifford Robinson, or whomever that better fits into the system you want to use, wjom you can rely on to execute the Xs and Os. Rick doesn't strike me as a teaching coach or personality assessor. A bit like Popovich. whichever way management goes, they have to commit to turing this team over totally to Rick and bring in exacly whom he wants, or gracefully let him leave, then work on bringing in players from a character/personality standpoint.

    Ow. My brain hurts. Didn't anticipate babblling that long. Sorry for being so long winded, folks.
    Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

  7. #7
    Member RWB's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Posts
    6,344

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    You do have to wonder if Rick still has the passion to coach or suffers the same burn-out as the rest of the team? He was aleged to be ready for a break after the Detroit firing and looking at taking an analyst/broadcasting job before Larry called.

    I wonder if the big picture is still not in play here, but a little side tracked. Donnie was suppose to retire after next season with Bird stepping in. Somebody's got to take LB's place and it still seems too convenient to me that Rick's coaching contract was expiring at the same time. Things have obviously changed, but I suspect it's only a minor bump in their minds.

    Rick may have set out a year to appease the fans, but then will come back in the management role later.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  8. #8
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,051

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    I think unless Bird believes he can change 9-10 players, I think Rick is gone.
    The problem with that is that might be Birds intentions, but teams always hold out until the last second on trades hoping for a better one. Thus, if the trades don't go though like Bird expects we could still have Rick as coach and most of the same players.

    Personally I think Rick will be back and will install a new offense. He has to know what the complaints about him are, and I think he will try to address them.

    I think if Bird was going to fire Rick he would have already done so. That way among other reasons he would have the input of a new coach before making a lot of trades.

    Also some people have said we can't have a lame duck coach. However, I don't think Carlisle being in his last year means a thing to Bird. Bird coached his last year and the team went to the NBA finals. Of course management was on record of wanting Bird back.

  9. #9
    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    874

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    A couple of points. The fact that RC doesn't already have a contract extension means they aren't sure they want to give him one. So they really are going to kick this around and pinpoint the problems, then act.

    I hardly think all the players have tuned RC out. If you deal the instigators, then there will be followers who will fall into line. Pacer trade history being what it is, there will be the fewest possible trades made which have the highest probability of effecting change.
    Don't thank me, I'll kill ya.

  10. #10
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cumberland
    Posts
    15,328
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    You're right Will, I don't think the Lame Duck theory holds with DW/LB/RC. All they have to do is walk into a team meeting and announce that RC is the coach for the entire year and that is that. Nobody's job is in writing, their paycheck yes, but their job no.

    MAssive changes? No, that is nearly impossible to pull off. Getting rid of the "I hate Rick Carlisle" malcontents is entirely possible, and is what I expect to happen. I'm convinced TPTB will stick with Rick and try to find players willing to play the game RC's way. Can somebody gimme a list of players who would enjoy playing that way? Especially a PG worth his salt.

    Personally, I'd like to see RC and the malcontents move on...but I don't see a coach out there to replace RC (perhaps Stan VG???? but then again?????????)

    In any case, IMO RC has absolutely GOT to turn loose of the PG reins and let them play.

    I've been curious why we haven't heard of the post-season wrap-up sessions, it has been awfully quiet over there.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lifelong Indy-area resident
    Age
    62
    Posts
    4,666

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Scott - a question. "PRETURNATURALLY"?

    Where in the world did that come from? I know you didn't pull it from your wazoo, because there ain't enough room in anybody's wazoo to accommodate that word. I began to count the syllables, but kept losing count, so I just gave up.

    -----

    I agree with the general sentiment that Rick needs to be replaced. And for the same reasons mentioned by many of you: he's tuned out, stubbornness with his offensive schemes, favoritism, micromanaging, etc.

    However, one thing that I do worry about is I fear that Bird will not go deep enough with his roster changes if Rick is replaced.

    Will Bird be tempted to do only minor tinkering with the roster in a belief that a new coach may be able to bring it together?

    If Rick is retained, I really believe that Jackson, Tinsley, Saras, Freddie and maybe even Harrison have to go. Also, I doubt Pollard or Gill would be re-signed, or would be willing to be re-signed for that matter. Also, there is a chance that Peja would less willing to re-sign since maybe he sees Rick as one of the major problems with the team. So somewhere between 4 and 8 players would be gone.

    But, if we have a new coach, maybe Bird will be tempted to simply think that he will trade out Jackson and Tinsley and see how the rest of the players work out. If so, I don't think those changes are deep enough.

    But one way or another, Rick's staying or leaving will influence the magnitude of the changes that will be made with the roster.

  12. #12

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Not to pat myself on the back, but I just knew it was coming. It will be the same old, same old if he's back next year. Rick knows what got him where he is today and he's going to ride that, no matter what, don't you think?
    The question is, who said it first?

    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof May 5th, 2006
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If I'm Donnie or Larry I also have to take into consideration that if fans see Rick on the sidelines next season that there will be the perception that it will be more of the same.

  13. #13
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,397

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The question is, who said it first?




    Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brown County, Indiana
    Posts
    3,780

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Keep something else in mind, when Bird was hired, he spoke with the players and decided that the players could no longer play for Isiah, well I think Bird has met with the players a this week and I believe he knows these players can't play for Rick any longer. Bird has seen it and now he's heard it. So unless he believes he can change most of the players on the current team, Bird knows what has to be done, so the next two weeks should be interesting.

    I think unless Bird believes he can change 9-10 players, I think Rick is gone.
    I think even if the players supported Isiah (as JO did), Bird was going to fire him. The difference between then and now is that Bird hated Isiah and Carlisle is Bird's chum. Many people, including myself, were absolutely positive that Bird's arrival meant Zeke's departure, and the likely eventual hiring of his buddy RC.

  15. #15
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Cumberland
    Posts
    15,328
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Quote Originally Posted by bulletproof
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The question is, who said it first?

    Well I ALLUDED to it early in the year. I predicted that when JO came back he would do just as he did last year and DUMP the up-tempo game, etc.

    SEE....I TOLD YA SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  16. #16

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    QUOTE=indygeezer

    In any case, IMO RC has absolutely GOT to turn loose of the PG reins and let them play
    I just wanted to point out that Rick did give AJ the reins at the end of the season and the playoffs, you need a PG who you can trust to make good decisions before you can turn them loose. Tins did not make good decisions a lot of the time so Rick didn't feel he could turn him loose. Saras is a rookie and was already having trouble just getting up to the NBA speed let alone run the team. But given a PG who is able, Rick absolutly let him run things, even in the playoffs.

  17. #17
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    45
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Its hard to say he turned AJ loose. AJ can't throw a post-entry pass to save his life. AJ is not very good at pushing the ball up the score.

    AJ has his strong points - I've long advocated that he should be considered our primary backup at both guard positions - but "running the offense" has never been one of them and frankly he wasn't very good at running the offense against NJ. His shot was "can't miss", but if anyone calls that "running the offense" - they're looney.

    Tinsley's decision making isn't that bad by most coaches' standards, but it goes against Rick's #1 priority for our offense, which is, "Eat as much of the shotclock as humanly possible; don't worry about trying to take advantage of a good shot early in the shotclock."

    Really, what's worse, Tinsley thowing the ball away trying to make something happen or taking a bad shot at the end of the clock because we never tried to make something happen? Yes, thanks to Rick, those are your only two choices.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  18. #18

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    I'm ready to see something else than what Rick runs. I'm a defense first kinda guy but sometimes I get the feeling that Rick's defense stratagy starts when the Pacer PG gets the ball over halfcourt. It's not enough that he doesn't trust his players enough on offense but he doesn't trust them enough to play defense without gimmics on the offensive possesion.

    I heard Kenny Smith talking about playing for a hands on coach like Avery Johnson. He said it would be tough because as a player in the NBA you feel that at a certain point you've earned the right to make decisions. I think that has a lot more ring of truth in it for Rick and his relationship to his players.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  19. #19
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nirvana
    Posts
    7,107

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    This is difficult. I do think RC is a solid coach in some respects. His communication/handling of the players is not one of them from what I can observe.

    I also get tired of his normally whimpy sideline demeanor. It's not like a stoic, respect-earning toughness. Add these things up and you see why many players do not respond well to him and/or his teams struggle with chemistry and purposeful play.

    Regardless of all this, though, I just think sometimes the best intentioned plans fail. The same person in a different context might be capable of more succes.

    In this case, I just think a fresh start would be the best approach. For me, that means a different coach. Unfortunately, things just haven't worked out and IMO it's time to move in a different direction.

    That said, I feel the same thing is necessary to some degree with our personnel. In addition, despite my preference, I tend to think RC does have the support of TPTB and will be back.

  20. #20
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Frankfort, IN
    Posts
    9,136

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    I've started to reply on this thread 3 different times and deleted it. I'm having a hard time expressing what I think so here's the ultra Cliff Notes Version.

    Rick Carlisle's a good coach with a sound system, but he has to have players that will execute the system. The system is pretty boring, but effective. He's much more flexible on offense than defense - I go back to the 60-win season when, before Tinsley got off the bench, the offense was initiated by getting Artest the ball at the elbow.

    However, he's also been screwed. Management pretty much gave blanket approval of anarchy by looking the other way with Artest for so long. How can you yank Stephen Jackson off the court for a blown assignment when the guy who destroyed one season, would destroy another in the future, and had a big part in getting eliminated in the ECF is being proclaimed as The-Golden-Boy-Who-Will-Make-Good-on-Everything-Despite-the-Fact-that-he's-a-Nutjob-Headcase-Fruitcake-Loony? Does anyone think Rick Carlisle enjoyed coaching a team with the Human version of Napalm on it?

    Nobody could have been very successful with the sludgepit Carlisle had to deal with. In the one year the Nutjob-Headcase-Fruitcake-Loony didn't destroy a season the team won 61 games and made it to the Conf finals and was tied in game 6 with 4 minutes left until the Nutjob-Headcase-Fruitcake-Loony decided to throw an elbow.

    That said, it's probably time for him to go. But not as a blanket situation. The Pacers need to look at who else is out there first and then make a decision. Carlisle can still take the team as currently structured to 45-50 wins next year. And without the Nutjob-Headcase-Fruitcake-Loony around he may surprise everyone and do better than that. So you don't throw him overboard immediately - wait and see who's out there before you drown him.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  21. #21

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Pretty much how I feel. Well said DK.

  22. #22

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    I agree with what many have said on this thread, esp. DK.

    However, sometime it is your time to go just b/c it is your time. It may have nothing to do with performance. I mean, he has taken a lot of criticism, but how many people could have accomplished what he has... considering his circumstances? I guarantee you it will be much easier to find more coaches who would be his lesser rather than his superior.

    Conseco just isn't that fun a place to go right now, and this team could use a change. Much like a new coach often brings in new uniforms just to visually show the changing of the guard, I think a new coach and a new face may be just what this team/town needs. Of course there is the chance that the new guy could really stink, but would it really be that much of a downer from where Pacer fans are right now anyway?

    It isn't fair to Rick and I personally think he is a heck of a coach. But I stand by my notion that Rick is a great coach who has just been the victim of some very unfortunate circumstances.
    “Seventy percent of me talking on the court is personally for me to get me
    motivated and going. Thirty percent is to see if I can get into the opponent’s head.”
    Reggie Miller

  23. #23
    Member owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,385

    Default Re: 2006 off-season evaluations part 1....

    Henceforth, the former player who's name we do not mention will be
    "Nutjob-Headcase-Fruitcake-Loony " or NHFL. Please use this acronym in
    all future postings. Your co-operation is appreciated. :-)

    Also Brichard brings up a good point and that Conseco is not a fun place
    to go anymore. If for no other reason the TPTB had better pay
    attention because people are tuning out by not going to Conseco or
    not watching on the tube.


    owl
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •