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Thread: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../1088/SPORTS04

    bob kravitz

    Meeting of the minds seems to give Pacers a life over past 2 games

    After the Detroit debacle -- the most recent Detroit debacle, the one Sunday on national TV -- the Indiana Pacers who still care deeply about this franchise had seen enough. It was bad enough getting blown out by the Pistons on national TV, but during garbage time, there was Dale Davis, merrily hoisting up 3-point shots while his teammates laughed the day away on the sideline.

    So Monday before the team's home game against the New York Knicks, Austin Croshere called a fairly rare players-only meeting. It lasted only 10 minutes, but a handful of veterans, notably Croshere, threw down the gauntlet.

    Then Wednesday, before a 117-112 victory over the Boston Celtics, Jermaine O'Neal met with team president Larry Bird and CEO Donnie Walsh, "to clear the air about some things related to the team. This was something we'd planned to do a week ago and just didn't have the time. But it was good for all of us to have our say.''

    Whatever was said, and however it was said, it appeared Monday and Wednesday night that it lit a very small fire under some players' body parts. It was obvious in their game, their body language, their willingness to chase down loose balls and challenge shots.

    "We were playing for each other,'' said Anthony Johnson, whose late-game drive held off a manic Boston run in the final minutes. "That's something we haven't done in a while.''

    The impact of team meetings, especially players-only meetings like this one, can be easily overstated. This team has been so inconsistent all season, so fragile, it wouldn't surprise anybody if it laid an egg at home Friday against Minnesota. Or got tripped up on the road against Charlotte and Toronto before finishing up at home against Orlando. But the simple fact somebody cared enough to call a meeting, to stand up and challenge his teammates, is a good sign in and of itself.

    "After that Detroit game, I wasn't sleeping good, and I thought, 'I've got to get something off my chest,' " Croshere said after a second straight productive game. "Maybe nobody will agree with me, maybe they won't listen and they'll walk away, but I've got to say something. I may not be the best player on the team or the captain, but being here nine years, I thought it gave me a platform from which to speak.

    "A couple of us got up and talked, and basically we said, 'If we're going to go down, let's go down the right way, the way we're capable of.' And everybody agreed with everybody else. We've had players meeting with coaches before, but I thought it was necessary for it to be players only this time. Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom before you even think to have that conversation.''

    Now, nobody is going to do cartwheels over the Pacers' first consecutive victories in six weeks -- they came, after all, against two wretched teams, the New York Knicks and Boston Celtics.

    Finally, though, we saw some signs of life. Finally, we saw the team they should have been long before things reached this desperate stage. There was ball movement. There was rebounding. There was passion.
    Where's this been all year?

    "The last two games, we're playing better, happier for each other, more assists and less turnovers,'' Croshere said. "It's fun to be out there. It's fun to be on the bench for the first time in a while. I certainly think things are headed in the right direction. But it doesn't take away from the problems we've had. I don't think anybody is pretending the last eight games didn't exist.''

    As for O'Neal, he said his meeting had absolutely nothing to do with Bird's published comments in Tuesday's newspaper.

    It did, however, look like O'Neal had been challenged. His energy was apparent from the start. Even as Boston's Kendrick Perkins kept blocking his shots -- or fouling him, depending on your perspective -- O'Neal continued to take it strong to the basket. More, though, he had 15 rebounds and seven assists, as strong an all-around game as he's had in a while.

    "Me and the front office had a long talk about everything,'' O'Neal said. "The air needed to be cleared, and it was very constructive. We laid it all on the line. We have a better understanding about each other, and my future with the team.''

    Then he smiled. "I have a long future with this team,'' he said.


    Certainly, he played Wednesday night like a man who desperately wants to stay in Indianapolis. Even in Monday's game, when his numbers were less than inspiring, his willingness to stay on the bench late in the game while his teammates were on a run made a good impression.

    "The thing he did (Monday), the things he did in this game, that rubs off on everybody,'' Croshere said.

    It's probably way too little, way too late. But, well, it's something.
    ---------------------

    Another good Kavitz article. As others have said he's pretty good when he doesn't go overboard on opinion. I've started reading him again.

    It's interesting that the Pacers are clearing the air. We've also learned in the last few days that Carlisle and JO aren't going anywhere. Personally I never thought they were but the chin music on here that wanted them gone got pretty deafening.

  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Well, the problem I have with these last two crumbs of info thrown to the Pacer masses is that they are taking things off the table. (The timing is a little odd too... on the heels of yesterday's column)

    It's hard to believe that we can keep Carlisle and JO and expect things to get back to where they once were.

    If in the end, we kept JO and/or Carlisle, it is one thing. To already declare we're keeping them is another. IMHO this team needs to be rethought with very little thought about the existing pieces. We need to see what is available and how we could make that work.

    OTOH, maybe I need to re-read this because I only recall JO saying he had a long future here. Possibly management challenged him to meet some certain goals if he wants a future here and he feels he will meet the goals and so he declared he had a long future.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

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    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Maybe the brass just challenged him to try and motivate his play back up to a level where he's a valuable trade commodity in the offseason. Honestly, if JO can play more like last night consistently, it's easy to rationalize what he's paid. Problem is that he's been nowhere near that the last two years on any regular basis.

    I know injuries and suspensions, but then there's the leadership issue, as well. Also take into account that the Celts weren't runnning all-stars at him. My overall outlook on JO remains that he's an above average big man, although not to the lofty levels his salary would indicate, that is not capable of carrying or leading a team a la "the guy". He would make an excellent second option with D and rebounding as his first priority.

    What we need from JO, aside from play like yesterday more often, is to have that positive energy and attitude from last night come from HIM even in difficult times. Not needing a meeting with the management to motiviate it. That's what the leader or main man on the team generally offers.

    I wouldn't trade him unless there were reasonable value in return. Something that really improved the team. However, I think the option must remain open and at least be explored to see what's out there.

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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Lets say they tell him he's not going to be part of the future... does anyone honestly think that they'd do that at this time in the season? Lets say they DID tell him that he wasn't, do you think he'd admit it up front to the media?
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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    I think what happens in this age of the Internet is basketball forums like this one start talking about trading a player then the media pick up on it and the next thing you know the player is wanting to know where they stand. Probably what happened in JO's case.

    JO is our post presence so he isn't going anywhere unless it's a no brainer trade. Really his value would have to go way down before the Pacers would make some of the trades advocated on here.

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    Member Harddrive7's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Well the way he said it with a "smile", one would have to consider that they may have let JO in on a big move that's brewing. Maybe they have something going with a big name, or maybe they're just getting rid of some cancer(s).

    We need to figure out how to get a bug into that office.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    I'll say the same thing I said the other day after the vote of confidence for Carlisle. I don't put too much stock into this. First I never thought the Pacers would just dump J.O, or have a a firesale for the guy. If they get a deal they think will better the team, they will trade him, no matter what they told J.O yesterday. What are we to expect Jax is going to have a meeting with LB and DW tomorrow and then he'll tell Kravitiz that his future is long too.

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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    We're now back on track to win it all.




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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I'll say the same thing I said the other day after the vote of confidence for Carlisle. I don't put too much stock into this. First I never thought the Pacers would just dump J.O, or have a a firesale for the guy. If they get a deal they think will better the team, they will trade him, no matter what they told J.O yesterday. What are we to expect Jax is going to have a meeting with LB and DW tomorrow and then he'll tell Kravitiz that his future is long too.

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    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    It's interesting that the Pacers are clearing the air. We've also learned in the last few days that Carlisle and JO aren't going anywhere. Personally I never thought they were but the chin music on here that wanted them gone got pretty deafening.
    Will, I don't buy what's being put out there one bit.

    Not. One. Bit.

    Think back. Remember when we got Erick Dampier? He's our future at C. The brass told the media as much everytime they asked. He was here long term. Erick used to talk about looking forward to a long tenure here. He would mention how management told him he was part of their future plans.

    Then we traded for Chris Mullin seemingly out of the blue.

    This has happened time and again in the past with the Simon's. I wouldn't put too much stock in them saying JO is a keeper. If he does stick, it's because they couldn't find a comparable deal out there, not some long term investment, imho. If you look around the league, it's pretty touch to make a deal, right now, with so many potential free agents.

    Simons have always been good about not showing their hand and reassuring players that they're home. Then when a trade IS made, they talk about how it was smart and they couldn't pass it up, or the team got younger, or whatever. I just know that I don't believe this little nugget of info about JO and if I was him, I wouldn't be too secure.
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    This has happened time and again in the past with the Simon's. I wouldn't put too much stock in them saying JO is a keeper. If he does stick, it's because they couldn't find a comparable deal out there, not some long term investment, imho. If you look around the league, it's pretty touch to make a deal, right now, with so many potential free agents.

    Simons have always been good about not showing their hand and reassuring players that they're home. Then when a trade IS made, they talk about how it was smart and they couldn't pass it up, or the team got younger, or whatever. I just know that I don't believe this little nugget of info about JO and if I was him, I wouldn't be too secure.
    The Simons? It would ultimately be up to LB & DW.

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    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    I should have said "Walsh".

    *nitpicker*

    Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    JO is gonna stay no doubt about it.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech
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    Will, I don't buy what's being put out there one bit.
    I do. But I don't buy it that JO won't be traded. Everything depends on the circumstances. What if the Simons decided they wanted to start over? What if something happened and we got Bosh? Then JO would be expendable. Even JO would tell you that he still COULD be traded.

    Right now I would say Bird and Walsh have no intentions of trading JO. But that's right now.

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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    I mentioned in a thread the other day that I think Larry is a pretty brutally honest person and doesn't deceive the media much. However, this is one of those situations where no matter how much of a boy scout you are, you can't let all of your feelings be known publically. Asking a GM whether they are going to move a disgruntled player is equivalent to a lady saying "Does my butt look big in this?"

    If the truthful answer is bad news, then it won't be said. "No honey, I could barely even see it!" is the right answer. And, "We love JO forever!" is the other correct answer.

    If they admit they are looking to move him, it can bring nothing positive to the Pacers, only grief.
    “Seventy percent of me talking on the court is personally for me to get me
    motivated and going. Thirty percent is to see if I can get into the opponent’s head.”
    Reggie Miller

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    Gamble
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    I never thought JO and RC were the major problems with the team and
    I am glad to keep both of them if it means others are gone. Walsh
    and Larry made some big mistakes with getting players that don't fit
    the system that Rick runs.
    I also have faith that they can swindle a deal to get rid of the
    nonconformist for something more fitting of Rick.

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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble
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    I never thought JO and RC were the major problems with the team and
    I am glad to keep both of them if it means others are gone. Walsh
    and Larry made some big mistakes with getting players that don't fit
    the system that Rick runs.
    I also have faith that they can swindle a deal to get rid of the
    nonconformist for something more fitting of Rick.
    Which specific players do you want to see gone?
    “Seventy percent of me talking on the court is personally for me to get me
    motivated and going. Thirty percent is to see if I can get into the opponent’s head.”
    Reggie Miller

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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    JONeal can be moved if someone meets Bird's asking price. Judging how long and what they went through to trade Artest ( someone that we desperately wanted to get rid of )......its easy to assume that the asking price is probably very high. It doesn't mean that Bird will actively look for takers for JONeal....but I am sure that he won't mind listening to offers. If the right deal comes along....which I would guess would ONLY involve a very short list of players.....like KG.....then I can see JONeal going.

    But how likely is McHale going to move KG for JONeal while not giving up players that Walsh/Bird wouldn't want to give up ( like Harrison, Granger or Foster )? Very unlikely.

    No one is untouchable.....not even Granger or JONeal. Can JONeal be traded in the offseason? Yes, anything is possible. Is it likely that he will be moved? Highly unlikely.
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    On the more positive side, that article sure was special. Almost brought a tear to my eye.

    Actually, I really do like what Cro did, and what AJ said about the team is what I've been seeing in the last two games. But, I'm not exactly drinking the Pacers' Playoff Kool-Aid yet because we've just beaten the Knicks and Celtics. If we had maybe done this BEFORE the Pistons game and gotten together as a team BEFORE the Pistons game and AT LEAST competed in the Pistons game, then maybe I'd take a sip. But, New York and Chicago are hardly the Pistons and the Pacers are hardly championship contenders yet.

    I mentioned in another "JO's not being traded" thread that I don't think he's going away easily. If we trade him, it'll be for an uberstud. I think (and by that I mean I hope) DW & LB will work on the backcourt before the frontcourt. JTins, AJ, and SJax need to go before anyone else, IMO. If something ridiculously good comes up for JO, I don't doubt that TPTB would pull the trigger.
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    No one is untouchable.....not even Granger or JONeal. Can JONeal be traded in the offseason? Yes, anything is possible. Is it likely that he will be moved? Highly unlikely.


    Unless for LeBron James, Danny is untouchable.
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    Gamble
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    Which specific players do you want to see gone?
    Most people believe Jax and Tinsley should go and i would have to agree.
    Chemistry wise they pull the team down and yes I know Ragnar
    Rick sucks at playing towards a persons stregths if it means changing
    his offensive philosophy. Most people probably agree that saras is a
    waste if he isn't allowed to be his own court general.

    If Dw'a and LB love talent so much than they should get the stuff
    Rick will use. To me JO is worth more to keep than to get picks for
    and I would say its stupid to even think we will get something better.

    Sorry guys my dreams can't get that wet anymore. I would be happy
    with something quick defensively at the point and a sg that can
    slash without busting a knuckle or a thumb...and go left once and awhile.

  22. #22
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC
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    No one is untouchable.....
    I've argued against this statement before! It's what I call a nice sounding sound bite that seems true, but when you really think about it, you find it's not true. Certain players have been, can be, and no doubt are untouchable.

    For instant, Granger's my favorite player and I wouldn't trade him no matter what you offered in return. Likewise, if you think owners don't have favorite players they won't trade you are kidding yourself.

    I will grant you that I don't think any Pacer's are untradable though.

  23. #23
    sweabs
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    For instant, Granger's my favorite player and I wouldn't trade him no matter what you offered in return. Likewise, if you think owners don't have favorite players they won't trade you are kidding yourself.
    So you're meaning to tell me that if Danny Ferry called you up, and wanted to deal Lebron for a package surrounding Granger you would turn him down? I highly doubt it (unless the rumours are true, and you are that crazy ).

    That's the thing. GM's can say that a player is untradeable...but if some crazy offer comes their way that they never expected, then they're bound to change their minds. It's a matter of being persistent and persuasive. JO could be Larry's number 1 guy...untradeable in his books. But that was until he heard Kevin McHale wanted to deal KG in a package including JO (for example). It all comes down to who is willing to go out there and make those types of offers.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    [QUOTE=rcarey]So you're meaning to tell me that if Danny Ferry called you up, and wanted to deal Lebron for a package surrounding Granger you would turn him down? I highly doubt it (unless the rumours are true, and you are that crazy ).

    YES! The rumors are true! (grin)




    That's the thing. GM's can say that a player is untradeable...but if some crazy offer comes their way that they never expected, then they're bound to change their minds. It's a matter of being persistent and persuasive. JO could be Larry's number 1 guy...untradeable in his books. But that was until he heard Kevin McHale wanted to deal KG in a package including JO (for example). It all comes down to who is willing to go out there and make those types of offers.

    This is true too.

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    Default Re: Star} According to Kravitz, JO going no where.

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy
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    Unless for LeBron James, Danny is untouchable.
    Or Kobe,KG,DWade,Bosh,Arenas,Timmy D,Billups,Vince,Dwight Howard, and some more players.

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