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Thread: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

  1. #1
    Member OnlyPacersLeft's Avatar
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    Default why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    for instance KG with the wolves (altho they say they are not interested in trading him) Or when orlando sucked they traded T-mac....wtf? is that how you rebuild? trade away your best player? why is it JOneal is getting all the blame and now he "Needs to go" ? is it because people think he isn't good enough to lead this team to the finals? why because he's been injured? or the fact that this team hasn't had ANY time to gel. So the pacers lose it must be O'neals fault...automatically we should trade him? it doesn't make sense...The nba is weird like that...trade your best player to rebuild? what!?
    I think the p's need to add pieces but not totally blow it up! keep guys like danger,fred jones,foster,AJ....get rid of guys like Tinsley,Jacko,Runi(even tho I liked sarunas)...BUT NOT YOUR STAR! wtf?
    and just think how JO feels all the stuff he's done for indiana and it's community now they want him traded!? how's he going to play with that over his head? like wtf they don't want me here? fine then...not saying he's going to act all steve francis but you know...

    So add me to the Kill the JO Trade Talk bandwagon!
    "GIMMIE DAT!"-DANGER

  2. #2

    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    I guess the answer lies in Conrad's (answer to) question of the day and BBall's Season ending wrapup post. Imo, management is thinking that it is easier to get the transcendent leader (which isn't JO) than to form the team. Without trading JO it is hard to get the transcendent leader.

    P.S.: don't put me in the JO trade bandwagon. Like, I mentioned before - I want to see Jermain in PF. Now I have no idea about him
    I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

  3. #3

    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Jermaine has the biggest contract on the Pacers' roster. He's making $16.4 million this year, and progressively more in the years to come. If Donnie Walsh needs to cut the payroll by a lot, then Jermaine's contract is the place to start.

    But there is also the performance issue. Jermaine earns a lot, but he's an important player. You might argue that he earns his $16.4 million.

    You'd be wrong.

    I have calculated the contribution of every player on the payroll this year, and JO's cost per contribution is high.

    My calculations were simple: (minutes + points + rebounds + assists + steals + blocks) / salary. In Peja's case, I included his total year's stats rather than just since he joined the Pacers.

    The most expensive Pacer this year is Reggie Miller, who is earning $6.1 million for past contributions. He earned it, and his retirement ceremony was the highlight of the year.

    Following is every player's "dollars per performance value." The dollar value is what the franchise is paying that player to perform -- or in the case of Reggie, Bender and Walker, not to. It is, on average, what the team pays for every statistically measurable accomplishment the player leaves on the floor.


    Reggie Miller infinity ($6,100,000/zero)
    Jonathan Bender $186,842
    Samaki Walker $13,269
    Scot Pollard $5,794
    Jermaine O'Neal $5,496
    Austin Croshere $5,342
    Eddie Gill $4,705
    Jamaal Tinsley $3,178
    Jeff Foster $1,923
    Peja Stojakovic $1,762
    Sarunas Jasikevicius $1,716
    Stephen Jackson $1,298
    Anthony Johnson $863
    Fred Jones $842
    Danny Granger $501
    David Harrison $422


    Now, we agree that the Pacers need more rebounding. more scoring, more blocks, and more steals. We need players who can play minutes reliably. But those needs cannot be considered outside the financial context.

    Every Jermaine rebound costs $5,496. Every David Harrison rebound costs $422. They both count the same out on the floor.

    Where are you gonna shop?

    The intangibles are not factored into my calculations. But the intangibles are against Jermaine.

    He is the acknowledged "most over-rated player in the NBA."
    He is disappointing as a team leader.
    He is injury-prone.
    He has no upside -- he's as good as he's going to get.


    OnlyPacersLeft says there is a general tendency for teams to shop their star when things go badly. I don't know why it happens with other teams. But I think the above reasons suffice for why Jermaine is on the trade block.

  4. #4

    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Ooo. I forget one of the big intangibles.

    The team plays better without him.

  5. #5
    Oh What Could Have Been! fwpacerfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam
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    Jermaine has the biggest contract on the Pacers' roster. He's making $16.4 million this year, and progressively more in the years to come. If Donnie Walsh needs to cut the payroll by a lot, then Jermaine's contract is the place to start.

    But there is also the performance issue. Jermaine earns a lot, but he's an important player. You might argue that he earns his $16.4 million.

    You'd be wrong.

    I have calculated the contribution of every player on the payroll this year, and JO's cost per contribution is high.

    My calculations were simple: (minutes + points + rebounds + assists + steals + blocks) / salary. In Peja's case, I included his total year's stats rather than just since he joined the Pacers.

    The most expensive Pacer this year is Reggie Miller, who is earning $6.1 million for past contributions. He earned it, and his retirement ceremony was the highlight of the year.

    Following is every player's "dollars per performance value." The dollar value is what the franchise is paying that player to perform -- or in the case of Reggie, Bender and Walker, not to. It is, on average, what the team pays for every statistically measurable accomplishment the player leaves on the floor.


    Reggie Miller infinity ($6,100,000/zero)
    Jonathan Bender $186,842
    Samaki Walker $13,269
    Scot Pollard $5,794
    Jermaine O'Neal $5,496
    Austin Croshere $5,342
    Eddie Gill $4,705
    Jamaal Tinsley $3,178
    Jeff Foster $1,923
    Peja Stojakovic $1,762
    Sarunas Jasikevicius $1,716
    Stephen Jackson $1,298
    Anthony Johnson $863
    Fred Jones $842
    Danny Granger $501
    David Harrison $422


    Now, we agree that the Pacers need more rebounding. more scoring, more blocks, and more steals. We need players who can play minutes reliably. But those needs cannot be considered outside the financial context.

    Every Jermaine rebound costs $5,496. Every David Harrison rebound costs $422. They both count the same out on the floor.

    Where are you gonna shop?

    The intangibles are not factored into my calculations. But the intangibles are against Jermaine.

    He is the acknowledged "most over-rated player in the NBA."
    He is disappointing as a team leader.
    He is injury-prone.
    He has no upside -- he's as good as he's going to get.


    OnlyPacersLeft says there is a general tendency for teams to shop their star when things go badly. I don't know why it happens with other teams. But I think the above reasons suffice for why Jermaine is on the trade block.

    Great post. The Pacers are 3-8 since JO's return. It's all about results and this team hasn't played very well since the "All Star" has returned to the lineup. It's not completely his fault but he has a hand in it.

    I've said it for a while now - JO is not the leader the team wants him to be. He is a good 2nd man but he is not a good leader. I don't see anyway he will be able to step back with this organization. Both parties need a fresh start. This team is not going to win a championship (or even come close to playing for one) as they are constituted. JO can bring the most in a trade and he is arguably the easiest to replace. I know 20/10 guys are hard to come by but when you factor in injuries and his position I think you can get 20/10 out of a Granger/Foster/Lottery Pick combination at PF by giving JO's minutes to them. You also free up a chunk of money that can be used on other areas of need. This team is in need of a major overhaul and the lack of effort they've exhibited the last few weeks will probably push Bird/Walsh over the edge.
    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
    - Benjamin Franklin

  6. #6

    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    The pacers already traded away their best player... JO is not a superstar.

    over the last 3 years when Ron was out and it was JO playing this team has been sub- par/ mediocre. My feeling is, they have already blown up this team so much they might as well start over and get JO off the books and get some good players in return. The loss of Ron Reggie and AL was the downfall of this team.

  7. #7
    Member J_2_Da_IzzO's Avatar
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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyPacersLeft
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    So add me to the Kill the JO Trade Talk bandwagon!
    Just added myself to that to.

    I dont remember where a team have traded there star player to be any better team then they was with him.

    How many games has Artest played for us without Jermaine???? If someone could tell me our record from that I would like to know.

  8. #8
    sweabs
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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by J_2_Da_IzzO
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    I dont remember where a team have traded there star player to be any better team then they was with him.
    Phoenix & Stephon Marbury.

    Detroit & Grant Hill, Jerry Stackhouse.

    Those are just some quick ones that came to mind...I'm sure there are plenty more out there.

  9. #9
    Revis1on
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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by OnlyPacersLeft
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    for instance KG with the wolves (altho they say they are not interested in trading him) Or when orlando sucked they traded T-mac....wtf? is that how you rebuild? trade away your best player? why is it JOneal is getting all the blame and now he "Needs to go" ? is it because people think he isn't good enough to lead this team to the finals? why because he's been injured? or the fact that this team hasn't had ANY time to gel. So the pacers lose it must be O'neals fault...automatically we should trade him? it doesn't make sense...The nba is weird like that...trade your best player to rebuild? what!?
    I think the p's need to add pieces but not totally blow it up! keep guys like danger,fred jones,foster,AJ....get rid of guys like Tinsley,Jacko,Runi(even tho I liked sarunas)...BUT NOT YOUR STAR! wtf?
    and just think how JO feels all the stuff he's done for indiana and it's community now they want him traded!? how's he going to play with that over his head? like wtf they don't want me here? fine then...not saying he's going to act all steve francis but you know...

    So add me to the Kill the JO Trade Talk bandwagon!
    When their superstar isn't a superstar. Sure, he has commercials ... but, he is also one of the most overrated players in the league. Taking 30 shots to score 20 points and clanking the rest to get 10 boards is not a superstar. That's just proof anyone in the league can average a double-double if given the opportunity.

  10. #10
    Revis1on
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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by rcarey
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    Phoenix & Stephon Marbury.

    Detroit & Grant Hill, Jerry Stackhouse.

    Those are just some quick ones that came to mind...I'm sure there are plenty more out there.
    Stephon Marbury and EVERY team he has left (Minnesota, New Jersey, Phoenix).

  11. #11
    Banned Fool's Avatar
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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Often its the max player who wants the change. Not the team.

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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Do the pacers have a superstar!?

  13. #13
    Edge of Reason GO!!!!!'s Avatar
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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    leave Boomer out of this, his life is hard enough having to deal with jeolous Bowser


    Ya Think Ya Used Enough Dynamite there Butch...


  14. #14
    Oh What Could Have Been! fwpacerfan's Avatar
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    Default Re: why is it...that when a team loses...they look to trade their superstar?

    Quote Originally Posted by #31
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    Do the pacers have a superstar!?
    THAT is the problem. JO is not the superstar that the Pacer fandom has promoted him to be. He is a very good player but he is NOT a superstar. He is being looked to and depended on to be a superstar but he isn't. Last night was a case in point. The team didn't look to him on every possession and the team played better. They didn't look to him enough imho, they took too many jumpers for my taste, but they got other players involved. This is what they did when JO was out for over 30 games the last 2 years and they had success. It is what they don't do enough when is in, which is why they struggle.

    JO can't handle being the only option on a team. This league is dominated by wing players and slashers and JO isn't either and the sooner he and the Pacers realize he can't be the main man, but instead, ONE of the main MEN the sooner they can become a contender.
    "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
    - Benjamin Franklin

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