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Thread: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/v-...p-344401c.html


    New York Daily News - http://www.nydailynews.com
    No one listens to Larry & Rick

    Friday, April 7th, 2006

    If they were buddies, Larry Brown and Rick Carlisle would undoubtedly make it a point to meet at the Garden tonight and compare notes on a dangerous problem they share. They're both coaching players who have tuned them out. You can imagine the conversation:
    Brown: I got this kid Robinson, and I know he's trying, but the other night I had to get on him 'cause Iverson busts him for 47 and the kid is out there showboating. So what does he do? He pulls a Steph on me. Our next game, he takes one shot. You know me. I need veteran guys who want to be coached and want to win. That's not this group. So I'm thinkin', why even stick around?

    Carlisle: You think you've got problems, Lar? My guys haven't been listening to me for weeks. If the East weren't so bad, we'd be out of the playoffs. I just wish I still had Mike Brown on my staff to ride herd on these guys. Because I just can't get through to 'em.


    We know, that conversation could never, ever happen. If Brown and Carlisle pass each other in the hallway and make eye contact, it's an upset. They're tried-and-true adversaries, stemming from Carlisle's removal in Detroit after the 2003 season. Carlisle has always suspected that while he was still coaching Detroit, the Pistons and Brown were busy cutting a deal.

    But even those differences aside, Brown and Carlisle share the one problem coaches wouldn't wish on their worst enemies. When players turn a deaf ear to coaches in practice, film sessions and games, the pink slip usually is not far off.

    The way Brown talked the other night, it almost sounded as if he wouldn't mind that happening. Yes, he made sure to say, "I'm not jumping ship here," which was a funny line from one of the great ship-jumpers in coaching annals. But more importantly, he did not deny the growing speculation around the league that he will throw up his hands, say no mas, and skip town. Maybe sooner than later.

    "You've got to always examine that," he said.

    By making that statement, Brown could be planting the seeds on two fronts for his departure. One, it could get James Dolan and Isiah Thomas to bite and get rid of him. If the Garden's boss and the Knicks' team president think after one season that hiring Brown was a mistake, then you can also see, on a second front, why Brown is openly thinking of an exit strategy. That way, teams that already know they'll be making changes in the offseason have been alerted.

    It's like he's saying, Don't go filling those vacancies so fast.

    One of those teams could be Indiana, where Brown once coached. As successful as Carlisle has been in his three seasons with the Pacers, even putting up with Ron Artest, injuries to Jermaine O'Neal and the riot in Auburn Hills and all its fallout, it's not like he hasn't had players tune him out before. He's never been a people person. To this day, Pistons execs privately insist that if they had kept him on for a third season, there would have been a mutiny in 2004 instead of a championship.

    Since March 1, the Pacers have fallen from fifth in the East, at 29-25, to 36-38 and only 1-1/2 games ahead of eighth-place Chicago and two games in front on ninth-place Philly. The knock on Carlisle is that he's too soft on his players, who are seen as some of the toughest guys in the league to manage.

    But they're always toughest to deal with when they've stopped listening.

  2. #2
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Crappy article. Pure speculation.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Interesting read considering it's not the Star. Disregarding all the Brown comments, I have to say that I agree with a lot of the things said...even if I think Carlisle is a great coach. Maybe it's just time.

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    -snip-
    The knock on Carlisle is that he's too soft on his players, who are seen as some of the toughest guys in the league to manage.

    But they're always toughest to deal with when they've stopped listening.
    Right on.

    He's coddled these guys way too much since the brawl; yet they've still tuned him out.

    If TPTB don't make significant overhauls of both the coaching staff and player personnel, they've greatly underestimated the problem.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Right on.

    He's coddled these guys way too much since the brawl; yet they've still tuned him out.

    If TPTB don't make significant overhauls of both the coaching staff and player personnel, they've greatly underestimated the problem.
    The sad part is how much he's stuck up for the guys who have seemed to quit on him the most: he defended Jax when people were critiscizing him, always gave Tins the starting job, he put Sarunas on the bench (when I'm sure there was management pressure to play him just cause of the hype), etc.

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade
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    Crappy article. Pure speculation.
    Not so fast, Shade... The coverage in The Star is so bad, that I will almost believe speculation in another paper over the Pacer's PR droppings that are in The Star.

    Funny thing...After Mike Wells (scoop) broke several stories that put the Organization in a questionable light, we have not heard much of anything from him. Did the Pacers flex their muscles? I would have guessed scoop would be all over the team tuning Carlisle out and the Star would have something worth reading. I guess Wells was fitted for a muzzle after the Artest situation and is wearing it now!
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade
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    Crappy article. Pure speculation.
    You said it.

    Maybe I've missed something, but I've never seen any animosity between Rick and Larry.
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome
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    Not so fast, Shade... The coverage in The Star is so bad, that I will almost believe speculation in another paper over the Pacer's PR droppings that are in The Star.

    Funny thing...After Mike Wells (scoop) broke several stories that put the Organization in a questionable light, we have not heard much of anything from him. Did the Pacers flex their muscles? I would have guessed scoop would be all over the team tuning Carlisle out and the Star would have something worth reading. I guess Wells was fitted for a muzzle after the Artest situation and is wearing it now!
    I wonder if it has to do with the fact that Wells doesn't write columns. In other words it's not his job, but rather Kravitz's who has had a couple fairly critical ones of the team.

    This makes sense in as much as Wells's big scoop could be included in the more "newsy", reporting-type articles or Pacer notes sections he tends to do b/c Artest came directly to him offering quotes. In order to get something into his sports section articles, he'd need somebody on the team or close to it to communicate it to him in a more direct fashion that RC had lost them.

    Also, in his game write-ups and Q&A on the web, while he doesn't come straight out and blast the team, his leads frequently have a bit of negativity or some little jab. However, it is subtle. Definitely not confiedent and straightforward.

    I'm not defending Wells or the quality of the Star's Pacer coverage. He's certainly not letting the Pacers have it, but I do detect some between the lines digs, although mainly at their on-court performance.

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE
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    I wonder if it has to do with the fact that Wells doesn't write columns. In other words it's not his job, but rather Kravitz's who has had a couple fairly critical ones of the team.

    This makes sense in as much as Wells's big scoop could be included in the more "newsy", reporting-type articles or Pacer notes sections he tends to do b/c Artest came directly to him offering quotes. In order to get something into his sports section articles, he'd need somebody on the team or close to it to communicate it to him in a more direct fashion that RC had lost them.

    Also, in his game write-ups and Q&A on the web, while he doesn't come straight out and blast the team, his leads frequently have a bit of negativity or some little jab. However, it is subtle. Definitely not confiedent and straightforward.

    I'm not defending Wells or the quality of the Star's Pacer coverage. He's certainly not letting the Pacers have it, but I do detect some between the lines digs, although mainly at their on-court performance.
    I was afraid when I wrote my comments about M. Wells (Scoop) that they would be taken as if I were referring to him as if he were a columnist. That was not my intention, but on a side note, The Star needs another columnist IN ADDITION to Kravitz. What I was getting at was him talking to the players and working for a story. Has the team shut him down, has he been told to stop digging...by his editors, or did he get a lot of flack for his work on the Artest deal? IMHO, certain players will tell you what is going on, and if the players tell you, it is not a column, but a news story.

    I guess I'm just tired of reading between the lines when it comes to coverage of the Pacers. Many of markets don't have to do this, why do I have to do that in this market. I hate the way Kravitz waits till something is blatenly obvious in Pacer-ville before he comments on it, but at least he is making a comment, no matter how much it is to just stir the pot.

    Hey, Indy Star...Go get a story for once!
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  10. #10
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    This article is nothing more than the writer pounding the same nails that get pounded here. What happens is someone on PD gets an idea, right or wrong, and expounds on it on here until other members pick it up and then the beat writers around the NBA start writing about it. The idea doesn't have to be right, just plausible.

    I've maintained for sometime that some of the writers on here are as good as guys doing the same thing for a living. Also as bad in some cases.

    And like here, some things he said don't even make sense. For instance; To this day, Pistons execs privately insist that if they had kept him on for a third season, there would have been a mutiny in 2004 instead of a championship.

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    And like here, some things he said don't even make sense. For instance; To this day, Pistons execs privately insist that if they had kept him on for a third season, there would have been a mutiny in 2004 instead of a championship.
    Makes sense to me.
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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome
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    I guess I'm just tired of reading between the lines when it comes to coverage of the Pacers. Many of markets don't have to do this, why do I have to do that in this market. I hate the way Kravitz waits till something is blatenly obvious in Pacer-ville before he comments on it, but at least he is making a comment, no matter how much it is to just stir the pot.

    Hey, Indy Star...Go get a story for once!
    Reading between the lines? The game is on television, there are recaps of the game, there are box scores, and extensive quotes.

    I don't know what it is with fans today that believe they should read all the Pacers dirty laundry in the local newspapers. Not when said dirty laundry can hurt the team they root for. Theres distinctions of course when players get caught breaking the law, etc.

    However, it seems to me what you and others are wanting and advocating is exactly what will lower a players trade value and thus hurt the Pacers.

    I completely disagree with your position!

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Makes sense to me.

    How so? This would have been Larry's 3rd season, not 2004. They won their championship in 2004 with Brown as coach. Read the paragraph again, it doesn't make sense.

    I believe there would have probably been a mutiny this year, but I'm not giving them the championship this year until they earn it.

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    They're talking about RICK's third season (or what would have been his third season).

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Lets do this again.

    This statement doesn't make sense. "To this day, Pistons execs privately insist that if they had kept him on for a third season, there would have been a mutiny in 2004 instead of a championship."

    This is the 3rd season they are referring to. It doesn't make sense that if Detroit would have kept Larry Brown this year there would have been a mutiny in 2004 instead of a championship.

    Yes there could have been a mutiny this year but it couldn't have effected 2004.

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    It doesn't make sense because you think they are talking about larry when they are talking about rick.

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    It doesn't make sense because you think they are talking about larry when they are talking about rick.
    AH! I stand corrected!

    And it's a pet peeve of mine that people dont really read what is written.

    And here I thought others were having reading comprehension problems!



    (DUMB WILL, REALLY, REALLY, DUMB!)

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    Reading between the lines? The game is on television, there are recaps of the game, there are box scores, and extensive quotes.

    I don't know what it is with fans today that believe they should read all the Pacers dirty laundry in the local newspapers. Not when said dirty laundry can hurt the team they root for. Theres distinctions of course when players get caught breaking the law, etc.

    However, it seems to me what you and others are wanting and advocating is exactly what will lower a players trade value and thus hurt the Pacers.

    I completely disagree with your position!
    Well, taking your position...I guess all team news should be like Pacers.com soft and fluffy, instead of journalism at its finest! Indy deserves better, not the PR arm of the Pacers for news coverage. Sorry, Yellow journalism sucks!
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    My position is I don't want stories printed that can hurt the Pacers. (With the exception of breaking the law, etc.)

    If that is a fans position, then who is the fan thinking of, their self and their need to know, or the Pacers?

    The publics right to know only extends to things that effect the public. It doesn't cover things that concern us that have no effect on us. In other words what a person wants to know doesn't mean he has the right to know.

    I think wanting to know the news regardless of how it effects the Pacers is the same attitude some players have. Me first.

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    My position is I don't want stories printed that can hurt the Pacers. (With the exception of breaking the law, etc.)

    If that is a fans position, then who is the fan thinking of, their self and their need to know, or the Pacers?

    The publics right to know only extends to things that effect the public. It doesn't cover things that concern us that have no effect on us. In other words what a person wants to know doesn't mean he has the right to know.

    I think wanting to know the news regardless of how it effects the Pacers is the same attitude some players have. Me first.
    I don't fall in the camp that feels the Star covers for the Pacers at every opportunity, or that we need somebody like Vecsey who constantly throws mud up against the wall to see what sticks.

    However, I learned some things at the last forum party about just how bad things were between JO and Ron, well before the brawl. If I'd known what was going on, and that TPTB stuck their heads in the sand and thought they could coexist, I definitely would have stopped getting tickets well before I did.

    For as much money as people throw at the Pacers, I think they have a right to have reasonable knowledge of what's what.
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    I don't fall in the camp that feels the Star covers for the Pacers at every opportunity, or that we need somebody like Vecsey who constantly throws mud up against the wall to see what sticks.

    However, I learned some things at the last forum party about just how bad things were between JO and Ron, well before the brawl. If I'd known what was going on, and that TPTB stuck their heads in the sand and thought they could coexist, I definitely would have stopped getting tickets well before I did.

    For as much money as people throw at the Pacers, I think they have a right to have reasonable knowledge of what's what.
    Yeah. If I'd known that before last week, my optimism would have turned to much sooner.

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    What'd you learn?
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    What'd you learn?
    That's for people who show up to the party to know.

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY



    I bet JO had sinusitis
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: No one listens to Larry & Rick - article out of NY

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    What'd you learn?
    Something that The Star felt you didn't need to know about the team!!!
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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