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Thread: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Ok, I did something that I have not done since we were at MSA. I got to the fieldhouse when they opened up the doors. Actually it was sureal to be in the fieldhouse with litterally maybe 20-30 other people (besides workers & players).

    I went to my seating area but thought, oh what the heck I'll just mozy over to the middle of the court & sit as low as I could to watch shoot around.

    Toronto's entire team is out doing a pre-game shootaround & from our team Ed Gill, Saras, A.J., Danny Granger & Jeff Foster were out on the floor shooting around. On our bench set Jamaal Tinsley who was drinking Gatorade.

    Here are just some things I noticed in the shootaround (you can learn a lot from these if you watch them close enough)

    1. Ed Gill does not miss in pre-game. He must burn up all of his magic at this time because he can't hit a shot during a game to save his life but in pre-game the man is a God. He & Danny were guarding each other & he was just raining threes down on Granger like he was Reggie.

    2. Anthony Johnson is the consumate pro in the pre-game. No messing around, no trick shots, no joking. He was all business & had a very strict regiment he was following including shooting 100 free throws (or close to it I quite counting after awhile).

    3. Danny Granger shoots & shoots & shoots some more in the pre-game. He was out there before I got there & stayed on the floor longer than anybody else. There were other players that came out much later that were on the floor after Danny went back to the locker room but none were on as long as he was.

    4. Saras only did a quick shoot around & went back to the locker room.

    As Ed Gill was getting ready to leave the court he stopped by to see Jamaal. He & J.T. joked around for a few min. & then he gave Jamaal the ball. Jamaal proceded to shoot four shots from his seat without ever getting up. He missed all of these shots.

    A.J. stopped by Jamaal as he was heading to the locker room. He bent over & whispered something but Jamaal waved him off afterwards. A.J. then went & signed Autographs.

    At this time only Granger, Chuck Person (who was playing with some young kids in the front row) & Jamaal were on the floor.

    Danny worked on the long ball while Jamaal proceded to go to the corner to work on his three point shot. I paid attention to this because he has stunk so bad from the field that I wanted to see what he did in pre-game.

    Sure enough he missed his first 7 shots but then ripped off 5 in a row before moving in for some closer work. By this time J.O., Jax & I think Pollard were out there.

    More & more people were starting to filter in so I knew that I would have to move back to my seat before long. As I was getting up I saw Jamaal doing spin moves under the basket vs. Dan Burke.

    Why is any of this important? Because it was the last time I saw Jamaal for the night.

    I heard no pre-game so I had no idea what was going on till tip off when I saw A.J. starting. I turned around & yelled up to Roaming Gnome to ask if he knew what was going on with Jamaal & he said that in the pre-game show Mark Boyle has said Jamaal was benched. I thought it was odd that he wasn't on the bench but with this team who knows.

    It wasn't until I came home that Diamond Dave told me that they listed Jamaal out because of an achilies injury or something like that.

    Um, if this is true how do they explain the fact that the guy was doing spin moves on the baseline?

    It was very obvious that Jamaal & A.J. were haveing an issue, I don't know what it was but it was obvious.

    I know there are those who hate whenever any of us question an injury or illness, but in this case I'm just going to come out & call this one pure & utter B.S.

    Even if he developed some pain from his practice, which he showed zero signs of, what would keep him from dressing in a suit & sitting on the bench with the team?

    I've heard now there is something going on between Rick & Jamaal & once again people are on here choosing sides.

    How about this for a side.

    Let's get rid of both of them. Yes, Jamaal is a talented player. Yes, Rick is a talented coach.

    Both have flaws & IMO both have worn out their welcome here.

    I just thought I would tell you all this.

    Ok, there was one really funny thing in the warmup lines just prior to tip off. If you have never seen David Harrison & Scot Pollard dance you have not lived.

    I cannot even begin to describe the dance David was doing but it was the funniest thing I've ever seen on the floor. He had Pollard & Foster busting up.

    BTW, side note, isn't it nice to have a big guy who doesn't take himself to seriously. Scot Pollard may have been a very good influance in the career of David Harrison for that reason alone.

    Jermaine O'Neal can be serious enough for the whole team, so it's ok to have Pollard & Harrison be funny as long as they do their jobs.

    To the game.

    Have you ever had one of those feelings that you just didn't suck as much as the other team instead of being the better team? Well that's how I felt during this game. No matter how bad we played we just couldn't play as bad as Toronto was, although we tried very very hard to give this one away as well.

    Two additional notes.

    A. The fieldhouse was a barren wasteland devoid of human life & spirit.

    B. During the announcement of the home team it was so quiet that you could clearly hear Steven Jackson being boo'd. The boo's outnumbered the cheers for Jax in this one IMO, at least in our section. But then again Roaming Gnome was behind us so we could be skewed in our view.

    Mike James just tore us apart. I'll say this, if Carlisle does stay then Mike James is your man. He is about everything that he would ever want in a p.g., he would have to work on his man to man defense a little but by no means is he bad.

    Pope Sow is Short. I mean really short. I don't care what he is listed at he is no taller than 6'8" tall because Granger was taller & bigger than he was. This was my first time seeing him in person & I was shocked at how small he was. So those NBDL stats. are way way way over inflated because he will never ever be able to reproduce even a 1/3 of those in the NBA.

    Sam Mitchell was about to have a seizure evertime one of his team would mess up on the floor. He griped at the refs. maybe 2 or 3 times all-night and the rest of the time he was on his players.

    I know that wouldn't go over well with our guys & in truth it's probably not that affective but man would I love to see someone go after our bunch with 1/2 as much vigor as Sam went after his players.

    Good God the Raptors kept putting Peja at the line all night long. I don't know how many freethrows he shot but it was a lot & I think he hit them all.

    Edit* just checked he was 12-12

    I'm glad they did this though as he was not shooting well from the floor for most of the night.

    Saras had a good night from the floor as well. He got 11 points, all in the first half, but he still laid out some nice assists. When he is hitting his shots he does change the game for the other team because they cannot leave him alone.

    Jeff had a good night on the floor & another solid night on the boards. He did a very good job guarding Villanueva forcing him into several bad shots.

    Jackson, well, Jackson had a Jackson kind of a night. He scored a good amount & played decent defense but he made some real bonehead plays that I have no idea how they did not count for turnovers.

    I think he was distracted by Roaming Gnomes boo's from the upper deck. On a funny side note, he did get the evil eye from the people in front of us during the game. I'm sure they just loved it when he came down & set with us after the half.

    A.J. had a decent evening. Although he was smoked by James on several occasions during the game. At least he hit some timely shots in the 4th to keep us on the lead.

    I'm sorry I'm not more up after this game guys, but in truth we just couldn't give this one away.

    Although we will probably make the playoffs, that's not a 100% certainty btw, I just don't see us doing anything once we are there.

    I have a feeling, well as Boston would sing More than a feeling, that this team is a mess behind closed doors.

    Neither Walsh or Bird were at this game, which I haven't seen that in a long time. I don't know what that means or even if it means anything at all.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    So Tinsley was capable of shooting in the pre-game warmup.....but supposedly had some problem with his achilles heel...enough for him to sit out the game.

    Something is.....afoot....

    On a side note....while watching ESPN GameCast, I stupidly thought that we were playing on the road in Toronto.....so I wasn't surprised that Toronto put up 100+ points on us since we aren't that great of a defensive team on the road. After I read your post ( which is very enlightening )....I realized that we sucked it up on the defensive end at home.

    This maybe a much needed victory.....and although a victory is a victory.......we have never played this poorly on the defensive end against a team like Toronto who was missing their #1 player.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Ok, there was one really funny thing in the warmup lines just prior to tip off. If you have never seen David Harrison & Scot Pollard dance you have not lived.

    I cannot even begin to describe the dance David was doing but it was the funniest thing I've ever seen on the floor. He had Pollard & Foster busting up.

    BTW, side note, isn't it nice to have a big guy who doesn't take himself to seriously. Scot Pollard may have been a very good influance in the career of David Harrison for that reason alone.

    Jermaine O'Neal can be serious enough for the whole team, so it's ok to have Pollard & Harrison be funny as long as they do their jobs.
    Why am I not surprised that a guy with a huge smile like this ---> :harrison: can do this ----> ?

    You just pointed out another reason to resign Pollard for the Vet minimum for a 1 or 2 year contract. If not for the occasional Shaq duty......he would be a good mentor to the Hulk.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    I think the important thing was to shake off this loosing streak.

    Also - IMO Rick made a good decision starting AJ, and I am pretty certain if he performs reasonably he will continue to start into the playoffs.

    I expect the team to improve significantly over the next games. Just a hunch.

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    Fat, Drunk and Stupid Lord Helmet's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Peck, could you describe more in depth how Tinsley, "waved off" AJ?

    This wasn't the first time I read on here that he did it. Diamond Dave said something about it earlier, and I take it Jamaal was doing it in a ****ty manner?
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    love your ODD THOUGHT's peck...

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    I know there are those who hate whenever any of us question an injury or illness, but in this case I'm just going to come out & call this one pure & utter B.S.

    Even if he developed some pain from his practice, which he showed zero signs of, what would keep him from dressing in a suit & sitting on the bench with the team?
    I don't understand why nobody believes me when I tell you that falsifying a medical report is a regular practice. I tell you guys every time. And if it happens in the NCAA environment which is MUCH MUCH more strict, it happens in the NBA. Its not uncommon for me to do this 2-3 times a week to hide or disguise some other reason a player is not playing. Its a ritual that is as old as the game in my opinion.

    Thanks for the long and interesting insight on pregame, Peck. You can learn a lot about who likes one another by watching player interactions. I observed a situation this year where two players who were previously friends randomly stopped interacting very suddenly. I did some investigation and found out that the girlfriend of one of them was impregnated by the other player. Pregame/practice is always the time to see these kinds of problems.

    PS - Peck, you emailed me recently and I replied back but never heard back from you. Was wondering if you got my reply, and what the outcome of the matter at hand was??
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Helmet
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    Peck, could you describe more in depth how Tinsley, "waved off" AJ?

    This wasn't the first time I read on here that he did it. Diamond Dave said something about it earlier, and I take it Jamaal was doing it in a ****ty manner?

    Don't read to much into the "waving off" because obviously I was not down there to hear what A.J. said.

    It could have been "hey Jamaal after the game you wanna go bowling" & Jamaal just waved him off for all I know.

    However, given the context of the entire evening & what appeared to me to be an upset Jamaal you can read into it what you will.

    However I stand 100% behind the fact that I saw the guy doing warmups & doing things during warmups that a person who has an ankle problem could not do.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Don't read to much into the "waving off" because obviously I was not down there to hear what A.J. said.

    It could have been "hey Jamaal after the game you wanna go bowling" & Jamaal just waved him off for all I know.

    However, given the context of the entire evening & what appeared to me to be an upset Jamaal you can read into it what you will.

    However I stand 100% behind the fact that I saw the guy doing warmups & doing things during warmups that a person who has an ankle problem could not do.
    Is the speculation that Jamaal refused to play and made up an injury excuse for himself OR is it speculation he threw a fit over something (such as AJ's retaking the starting PG role or 'conduct detrimental to winning') and got himself suspended for a game?

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  10. #10
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Let's face some realities instead of grassy knolls.

    1: Peck; Great post as usual, my 1 single ray of light in the darkness that is the flu in combination with work you need to use a brain with in cold environments (shiver)

    2: JT and RC have never at any stage in hte 3 years they are together been a "happy pair"

    RC has on several occassions done everything he could to "mold" JT into a benchplayer or something he wants instead of going with the strength of JT, as he has done with several other players.
    There was not last night and not after reading this one thought in my mind that JT was really injured, in fact I am pretty sure he was benched.
    JT does not strike me as the player that will do his utmost to upset people, but we all know what type of player RC likes and what type of player JT is and the two don't mix.
    JT being pulled after 1 and a half minute playing time in the 4th against the Bulls was telling enough to me that there was something very wrong, specially when it all went south and with 14 seconds to go and down 6 JT was brough in again.

    Let's face reality; despite some decent actions, play last night was pathetic, poor and we probably would have lost from any other team in the league.
    Penetration was like walking into a candyshop for the likes of James & Co. no one there to stop them, front them or bother them.
    Without wanting to hurt any player's fans, our PG play last night was sad to put it mildly.

    The "shot distribution" in the line-up is so poor that it is bound to give more problems, the fact that Jax easily has 30% more shots then anyone else, including JO says a lot and yes the fact that AJ takes as many shots as JO and Peja says equally as much, namely; this is "whack".

    Harrisson playing 6 minutes in total against an oponnent with no real big men and those that are of fair size in foul trouble again says something.

    The coach is the one person who "molds" the team "together" who "motivates" and who "gets the best out of his players" or at least, that is how it is supposed to be.

    Our coach has now for 3 years played players out of position, because he thinks they should play another position, has had favorite players that we all cringed at thinking about them let alone seeing them play, has not like his starting PG from day one (and yet he was signed by TPTB to a 6 year contract) has played our curent SG preferably at SF, has made our 4 bulk up and play the 5, much to the detriment of the player nad so on and so on.
    Has made his best friend his Assistant, while losing the better coach to another team.
    No I am not defending Ron, but it was him who said he didn't awnt to play for Rick anymore.
    Do you see any "fun" in our team when they play? do you see them having fun?
    Most if not all are good soldiers, they do as they're told, but some can take so much and other more or less.
    If JT got away with half the crap Jax gets away with he would be playing.
    And we are blaming the players.

    not me (anymore).


    I have gotten more and more respect for Jermaine O'Neal in this for the simple reason that he at no moment in time has even hinted to not support the coach, has not hinted about unhappiness, not biatched about his number of touches, his own stats, shown that he can pass with the best since Peja arrived (averaging more then 4 Ast since) has when he could not play helped other such as David in getting better and so on and so on.

    The fact that Jax can shout at anyone including the coach and keep playing says to much.
    The fact that other players don't says even more.

    And in a final bout of honesty; I doubt we will make the post season, very much.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  11. #11
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Blame it on Rio, baby. Let's not let our personal player biases get in the way. A team that is this pathetic means everyone should be called out and held accountable. That includes the coach.

    The only thing that's gonna make me happy is lots of new blood on this team come training camp next fall. I think players should be first priority but I'm open to coaching, as well. This disgraceful performance is a two-way street to some extent or another.

    So let's see. I'll assume Rick is gone and then the next priority should be making JO, JT, and Jack disappear.

    The only way JO should stay is if we can get a true star in here (not too easy I don't suspect) and an understanding from JO that his main role will be defense, rebounding, an occasional post scoring opportunity, and dropping some bulk. In other words, not the first offensive option.

    JO might be OK with this but it's still contingent on us getting somebody to take the main role, which I don't believe JO to be capable of. Nor do I think Peja capable either. He's another complimentary player but needs someone else to be most effective. In a perfect world, this player would obviously be a guard.

    Anybody with the possible exception of Granger should be fair game to dangle in the house cleaning effort.

  12. #12
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Peck said...."Neither Walsh or Bird were at this game, which I haven't seen that in a long time. I don't know what that means or even if it means anything at all."


    Probably means they have seen enough.

    Good report Peck.


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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    I was not at the game last night. No particular reason it was just a game I was not scheduled to be at.

    But I am sick and tired of the booing Stephen Jackson receives. Does he deserve it? I don't know and I don't care. To those at the game who were booing I'd like to say. OK, OK, we get the point, you don't like Jax, we know that already, no move on to something else. It just isn't very original to boo Jax. And to single him out is unfair.

    Jax cares about winning, he plays hurt, in fact he is having trouble running right now, to blame him and to boo him is very shortsighted, and I'm sick of it. It's like screaming at the newspaper boy because you hate the Indianapolis Star.

    Does Jax make some stupid plays, yes, but we know that. Does he complain too much to the refs, Yes, but we've known that. To boo him now is so unoriginal. Ok, we get it, now just move on. Please. I'm starting to become a huge Jackson fan, so if that is what you want......
    Jax played pretty well last night (zero turnovers). Ok enough of that, but really.

    Peck, I often enjoy getting to the game very early to watch the pregame warmups, I just enjoy being around basketball I guess.


    It is not about choosing sides in the Rick vs Tinsley debate or even the AJ vs Tinsley debate. Tinsley took his ball and went home last night. Isn't that really the cardinal sin. Isn't that really much worse than Jackson has ever done. Isn't that about as bad as it gets. I'm 100% sure what happened. Tinsley found out he wasn't starting so he went home, or maybe that was where DW and Bird were, trying to deal with Tinsley, I don't know and at this point I don't care.

    Pacers didn't play well last night at all.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    I'm a little confused Peck...
    On one hand you tell us
    It was very obvious that Jamaal & A.J. were haveing an issue, I don't know what it was but it was obvious.
    but then you say
    Don't read to much into the "waving off" because obviously I was not down there to hear what A.J. said.

    It could have been "hey Jamaal after the game you wanna go bowling" & Jamaal just waved him off for all I know.
    So what did you see that made you concerned that they were having a problem? Or are you just assuming that they were since JT was benched by RC?
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

  15. #15

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    I'm sure that the collection of investigative reporters at Indystar will investigate the Tinsley fake injury situation with typical bulldog-like tenacity.





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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    If he could make spin move with a bad achilles heel, he is truly an extra ordinary man.

    Those type injuries could "heel" by the next game or keep him out for the season. I wonder which it will be.
    But an hour or so later, Hibbert wrote on his Twitter account: "Love this coach [and] I love this team. We can go far this year if we play like that. 2night we played our hearts out. Just didn't get the win."

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Achilles injuries tend to be more of a chronic, long term type of injury. And one thing is for sure, if someone has an Achilles injury, if I'm their doctor, their foot is in ice 90% of the waking hours.
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    It is not about choosing sides in the Rick vs Tinsley debate or even the AJ vs Tinsley debate. Tinsley took his ball and went home last night. Isn't that really the cardinal sin. Isn't that really much worse than Jackson has ever done. Isn't that about as bad as it gets. I'm 100% sure what happened. Tinsley found out he wasn't starting so he went home, or maybe that was where DW and Bird were, trying to deal with Tinsley, I don't know and at this point I don't care.

    Pacers didn't play well last night at all.

    If you spent three years whith a boss who replaced you the first day he got there and tried replacing you at every single opportunity, you would eventually get fed up and go home too. No one cant take three years in a row of being treated like ****. Even Reggie got sick of Larry Brown and stopped playing hard. So before you ***** at Tins just because you dont like him remember Larry Browns last year here.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    If you spent three years whith a boss who replaced you the first day he got there and tried replacing you at every single opportunity, you would eventually get fed up and go home too. No one cant take three years in a row of being treated like ****. Even Reggie got sick of Larry Brown and stopped playing hard. So before you ***** at Tins just because you dont like him remember Larry Browns last year here.
    I don't agree with you that Rick treated him like ****. Rick has tried to play Jamaal as much as possible this season, he's really tried and Rick has never stopped being very complimentary of Jamaal. Lasy season and this season there have been times when Rick has reinserted JT back into the starting lineup when he shouldn't have.


    Edit: I never once saw Reggie stop playing hard, but I guess we can debate that, but one thing isn't debatable, Reggie never took his ball, and went home

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    I have gotten more and more respect for Jermaine O'Neal in this for the simple reason that he at no moment in time has even hinted to not support the coach, has not hinted about unhappiness, not biatched about his number of touches, his own stats, shown that he can pass with the best since Peja arrived (averaging more then 4 Ast since) has when he could not play helped other such as David in getting better and so on and so on.
    I had totally overlooked this. Kudos to Jermaine for being more like Reggie instead of like Tinsley.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    I had totally overlooked this. Kudos to Jermaine for being more like Reggie instead of like Tinsley.
    What exactly has Tinsley said in the media about Rick? When did Jamaal refuse to play with certain Pacers again? Sorry my memory must be clouded by all the Jermaine demands.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Jax cares about winning, he plays hurt, in fact he is having trouble running right now, to blame him and to boo him is very shortsighted, and I'm sick of it. It's like screaming at the newspaper boy because you hate the Indianapolis Star.
    I'll have to try that some time.

    It is not about choosing sides in the Rick vs Tinsley debate or even the AJ vs Tinsley debate. Tinsley took his ball and went home last night. Isn't that really the cardinal sin. Isn't that really much worse than Jackson has ever done. Isn't that about as bad as it gets. I'm 100% sure what happened. Tinsley found out he wasn't starting so he went home, or maybe that was where DW and Bird were, trying to deal with Tinsley, I don't know and at this point I don't care.
    Thank you, exactly. It's not about one or the other, though I'd choose the coach who means well over the player who is selfish. You just don't do what Tinsley did last night. There is a chain of command here. The best thing you can do is follow it because either the coach will eventually be seen as making the right call, or not, and he's fired for being exposed. This just hurts everyone on the team directly or indirectly.

    I'm angry at Tinsley. Aside from a brief moment in the 2002 playoffs, I don't recall ever feeling angry at Jamaal before, but I am now. I've had it.

  23. #23
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnar
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    What exactly has Tinsley said in the media about Rick? When did Jamaal refuse to play with certain Pacers again? Sorry my memory must be clouded by all the Jermaine demands.
    He refused to play with 11 of them last night.

  24. #24
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    He refused to play with 11 of them last night.
    No he refused to play for one person who has tried to take him out of the starting lineup or not play him at all for the last 3 years.

  25. #25
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about beating Toronto....

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    He refused to play with 11 of them last night.
    Where does this come from ?

    AFAIK he was TOLD not to come. not the other way around.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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