Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Q.O.D. for Monday

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,823

    Default Q.O.D. for Monday

    After the party I thought about the many questions I had typed on paper that I left on my kitchen sink so therefor forgot to ask.

    I'm going to compare the current team to the 90's team again so if you don't want to go down this road stop reading right here.

    What really was the differance between the two teams? Better coaching? More talent? Veteran leadership?

    Yes, a little of all of the above is true, but I have come to the conclusion that the one thing that seperates the current group of players from the older team is basketball I.Q.

    I just don't think player by player our basketball I.Q.'s are that good, in fact on some of our players I think they are very low.

    Any player on the starting five of the Pacers from 95 to 00 had either an above average or even excellent knowledge of the game for the positions they played.

    Reggie, Dale, Mark & Derrick had exceptional basketball I.Q's & Rik had an above average one.

    Travis, Jalen & Tony were all average.

    That accounts for 8 main stay members of the team. Mullin knowledge of the game was without a doubt masterfull, so that gives you another player.

    Kenny Williams had a low basketball I.Q. & so did Woody (however Woody made up for it in shear determination)

    I digress.

    What I want every body to do is give each player a grade on where you think thier basketball knowledge is.

    Now remember basketball knowledge does not mean athleticism. Example Jon Bender would have recieved an A+ for his athleticism but I would have given him an F for his knowledge of the game (at least for the first 3 years).

    We are going to base thier knowledge on how often they make mental mistakes, miss plays, get caught up in the moment & forget to follow the plan, etc., etc.


    A - Oustanding knowledge of the game (a Master if you will)

    B - Above average knowledge of the game

    c - just an average knowledge of the game

    d - below average knowledge of the game

    f - They don't have a clue


    Right off the bat I will tell you that IMO, we don't have any A's & we don't have any F's.

    There are times when a couple of them get close to both, but I think it's somewhere in between.

    I'll let you guys start.

  2. #2
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    8,752

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Croshere - B
    Foster - B
    Gill - F
    Granger - C but there is obvious room for improvement, just this season I think he has improved
    Harrison - D like Granger, still improving, used to be a clear-cut F
    Jackson - D
    Saras - B could be lower or higher based on what you think bball IQ is
    AJ - B
    Freddie - D
    JO - C
    Pollard - B
    Peja - A
    JT - D

    p.s. I don't think Dale and Rik were as basketball smart as you put them but one thing, they did know how to play within a team extremely well and they knew their roles. Again, how you define bball IQ is key...it's all semantics.

  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Age
    44
    Posts
    1,229

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    A - Oustanding knowledge of the game (a Master if you will) - Granger will be an A one day but I will put him as a B for now.

    B - Above average knowledge of the game - Sarunas, Foster, Peja, Granger,

    c - just an average knowledge of the game - J Oneal, JT, Eddie Gill, AJ, Pollard, Croshere, Freddie Jones

    d - below average knowledge of the game - Harrison

    f - They don't have a clue - SJax

    Peck - Good Q.O.D!

  4. #4
    Team Raskolnikov's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Ghent, Belgium
    Age
    30
    Posts
    4,596

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Good question, Peck!

    This is how I currently feel:

    Cro B
    JO C
    Dan B
    Peja A
    Sarunas A
    Jamaal C
    Jack D
    Dave C
    Fred D
    Polly C
    Gill - haven't seen him play enough to judge (from what I've seen though, no more than a C)
    AJ B
    Jeff B

    The guys with A and B are exactly the guys I said I wanted to keep next season in that poll a few days ago. Except for David Harrison.

  5. #5
    Rytas_Jega
    Guest

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    A.Croshere B
    J.Foster B
    S.Jackson D
    A.Johnson B
    F.Jones D
    J.O'Neal C
    P.Stojakovic A
    J.Tinsley B

    Š.Jasikevičius A at Euroleague and International competitions (have seen him playing only in 6 NBA games)

    I can't judge D.Granger, D.Harrison, S.Pollard, E.Gill, have seen them playing just in 5-10 games.

  6. #6
    Mjolnir Diamond Dave's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Crawfordsville
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,175
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Austin gets a B, not a master but has obviously learned to compete at a high level by using knowledge and expereince rather than physical attributes.

    Jeff gets a B, this is an improvement from recent years. Ever since Jeff has had hip problems he has learned to be a more efficient and effective player

    Jackson gets a D, knows how to play the game just not how to keep his head in it.

    Jermaine gets a C, very smart at the offensive end (good footwork, positioning, etc...), average at the defensive end (please stop trying to block every shot, and box out!), and sometimes has issues staying focused.

    Peja gets a B, a master offensive player, average on defense, but always focused.

    Tinsley gets a D, dumb plays, never focused, poor shot selection, lazy passes, but knows how to blow by any defender on offense.

    Harrison gets an F, sorry. He is one of my favorite players, but if the guy doesn't get a handle on the defensive end he will never be anything. Horrible man defense and team defense. Only a good weakside shot blocker. Not to mention he sometimes makes Jackson look like Confucious. He has all the physical attributes, but is being held back by his intelligence.

    Granger, gets a B. This will be the next player to get an A on the team. For a rookie this guy has shown incredible intelligence for basketball on both ends of the floor. He is already our best defender, and I'm not sure he ever takes a bad shot. Plus he always has in mind in the game.

    Saras gets a C. Pretty smart on the offensive end when he is not trying to showboat with risky passes in traffic. His man defense is atrocious, however I can't decide yet if that is because he is making bad decisions or just can't physically hang with NBA athletes.

    Pollard gets a B. Just reference the Heat game for details.

    Gill gets an INC. Just don't get see him enough

    Johnson receives a C. Average intelligence on both ends of the floor, but IMO his defense is overated. But one huge flaw is that the guy cannot run a fast break to save his life. If he is leading the break we will either end up with a turnover, a three pt shot attempt, or a broken break that ends with us running our half court offense.

    Fred Jones also recieves a C. Decent defense, but the guy often just jumps in the air on offense without a clue of what to do. He has been playing horrible of late. In fact whenever he gets the ball I wish that Japanese guy from Major League 2 was standing courtside to yell "Yooouuuu Suuuuucckkkkk!!!"
    House Name: Pacers

    House Sigil:



    House Words: "We Kneel To No King"

  7. #7
    Member Ragnar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Fort Wayne, IN
    Age
    43
    Posts
    5,917

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Peck the biggest difference between that team and this team is that they had the right coaches (Larry then Larry/Rick) at the rite time. This current team has the wrong coach. Its as simple as that. I guess you could argue that its the wrong players for the coach as well but the players were here first.

  8. #8
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    45
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Excellent premise, the basketball IQ of this team is pretty low.

    The other big difference, and its hard for me to separate this from basketball IQ, is mental toughness. This team is absurdly weak, mentally. I don't know if just the natural breakdown from spending too much time with Mr. Cancer, these guys at one time showed much more collective mental toughness.

    Here are my grades:

    Player - bball IQ - mental toughness

    1. JO - A - C
    2. JT - B - D/F
    3. SJax - F - D/F
    4. Peja - B - ??
    5. Foster - C - A
    6. Croshere - B - A
    7. Fred - D/F - B
    8. AJ - B - B
    9. Danny - B - B
    10. David - B - D
    11. Scot - B - C
    12. Saras - C - D
    13. Gill - D - C

    Departed:
    14. Bender - F - F
    15. Ron - B - F


    Now, I know the JO bashers are going to get on me for giving him an A for bball IQ. I think (1) JO is just following his coach's instructions, and (2) just because he's not very good at passing out of the double team does not automatically mean his bball IQ is low. Not every big man can have Walton's passing skills.

    He, and his coaches, are just more confident with him taking a shot out of a double-team than passing the ball.

    Most of our criticism of JO falls into the "mental toughness" bucket, not the "bball IQ" bucket.

    Ditto for me giving AJ a "B" for bball IQ. He doesn't get the ball and think, "I'm going to get myself pinned into a halfcourt trap." He's just not talented enough as a ballhandler to avoid the pressure.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  9. #9
    Member Knucklehead Warrior's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    874

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I have come to the conclusion that the one thing that seperates the current group of players from the older team is basketball I.Q.

    I just don't think player by player our basketball I.Q.'s are that good, in fact on some of our players I think they are very low.

    We are going to base thier knowledge on how often they make mental mistakes, miss plays, get caught up in the moment & forget to follow the plan, etc., etc.
    It strikes me that our answers so far reflect our biases about players and that what you are really defining as basketball knowledge is lack of knuckleheadedness. Others have seemingly voted for hustle and attitude as well, which have an impact on knowledge, but aren't knowledge.

    I think Jax2 and the tinman have more basketball savvy than we are giving them credit, but they score high on the Knucklehead Index, so we're giving them lower scores.

    The Knucklehead Index:

    A - Oustanding knowledge of the game (a Master if you will) -- Pollard, Foster, Granger, Croshere, Stojakovic,
    B - Above average knowledge of the game --
    c - just an average knowledge of the game -- jermO, AJ, Sarunas
    d - below average knowledge of the game -- Fred, tinman,
    f - They don't have a clue -- Jax2, harrison

    The guys I voted for A most resemble the 2000 team in attitude, desire, role playing, etc, therefore the least knuckleheadedness. Did Jax1 sometimes throw a bad pass or do his little wiggle down the court? Sure. Did Reggie argue with the refs while his man scored on the other end? yeah. Did Dale sometimes glare when he threw an offensive rebound into the hoop? yup.

    You know what? I think we gave those guys more slack because they were WINNERS. Yes our current team has a higher Knucklehead Index, but because they haven't won 50 games, we're also less tolerant of them.

  10. #10
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    8,218

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Good insight, Peck.

    I would argue that Derrick McKey had the highest BBall IQ on that team, which is saying a lot based on the other teammates. It's why I've always been a McKey fan.

  11. #11
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    8,218

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    I think Foster has the highest BBall IQ on this team, with Pollard a close second.

    Just behind is Cro, Granger, and Runi.

    I think Jax is near the lowest (remember him shooting a halfcourt shot with ten seconds on the clock?)

    Just above Jax in the lowest category is Tinsley, Freddie, and Harrison.

  12. #12
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,823

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Good insight, Peck.

    I would argue that Derrick McKey had the highest BBall IQ on that team, which is saying a lot based on the other teammates. It's why I've always been a McKey fan.

    It's hard to judge that team player vs. player because each of them were masters at their own position.

    Satan knew exactly how to play the sf spot without a doubt. However was his I.Q. higher than Reggie at his spot? It's hard to say.

    out of that group I would say that Jackson probably had the best overall, but that is just subjective. You could make arguments for Satan, Reggie, Mark & yes I'll throw in Dale (but I understand why people would discard that).

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    A - Oustanding knowledge of the game (a Master if you will)
    B - Above average knowledge of the game
    c - just an average knowledge of the game
    d - below average knowledge of the game
    f - They don't have a clue

    Tinsley - D. Streetball - A
    Johnson - B. Team player.
    Jasikevicius - A minus. Just needs one more year to addapt.
    Jones - C, Shot selection average at best
    Action Jackson - A on defence, F on attack
    Granger - B (in two years will be A).
    Peja - A
    JO - A, why do everybody does not love him?
    Pollard - B
    Foster - A,
    Harrison D (in two years will be D . Psychologically unstable.

  14. #14
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bilthoven, The Netherlands
    Age
    38
    Posts
    9,024

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Here are my grades:

    Player - bball IQ - mental toughness

    10. David - B - D
    12. Saras - C - D
    I really aggree with you on splitting this into both Bball IQ and Mental Toughness.

    However, you rate David a "B" for his basketball Intelligence and Sarunas a "C" ? Aren't you letting your personal dislike of a player get into the way of a fair analysis in this one?

    Offcourse, the list is personal, I'm just quite curious how you could possible EVER call David "smarter" (in Bball terms) then Sarunas, because I see it completely the other way around to be honest.

    Regards,

    Mourning
    2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws

    2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws

  15. #15
    Banned Jermaniac's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Your baby moms house
    Age
    26
    Posts
    11,717

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Fred Jones is easily the dumbest basketball player on our team. He should get a F from everybody.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    In regards of the comparing the two teams it is easier to look smarted when you have a role and complimentary teammates. Also smarts are something that vets generally have that rooks don't--I recalling hearing that the 90's Pacers were a veteran team.

    Some of these players I'd like to see in a different system before I say how much they get it. If a player is misused they look dumb.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  17. #17
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Venice, CA
    Posts
    9,690

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Please understand that if I were on the court, I'd get an F minus. But I'm not, I'm an armchair guy, so I can judge these guys without being judged in return. Hooray internet!

    Let's also be clear that knowing the game and showing that knowledge on the court are two different things. Many of the best coaches aren't even athletes. Does that mean they have a low Ball IQ? Of course not.

    I liked Jay's "mental toughness" column. I'm going to follow a similar formula, only I'm going to use a second letter grade for "team dynamics". In other words "intangible contribution".

    Here's how it can be graded -
    A - a true inspiration that leads through example as well as earned respect.
    B - Helps more than hurts.
    C - Helps the team dynamic as much as hurts it. Either through a lot of both or none of either.
    D - Hurts more than helps. Could be considered to be a distraction.
    F - Unable to work well with the other teammates. A clear liability.

    Now, let's be clear about one thing - I'm judging on-court performance only for both of these categories, and I'm only using my own observations. I'm leaving rumor, off-court quotes, lockerroom stories, the opinions of others and all the other second-hand information out of it for now.

    Player - BBIQ , Team IQ - E

    O'Neal - B , C - Smarter than most of you give him credit for. Unfortunately asked to be a virtual black hole for three years now. Has missed so many games that his contribution to the W/L column and his ability to lead the team is in serious doubt.

    Pollard - B, B - Pollard is long on heart but also knows what he's supposed to do on the court. He's proven that if you play with smarts and heart you can do a lot. He's also proven that a player like him needs to be on the court consistently to reap the rewards of his situation.

    Foster - A, A - You heard this right. Foster is rarely out of position on either end of the court. He knows what he's supposed to do and does it consistently and without fanfare or complaint. He meets his challenges head on. He also keeps his cool better than just about anyone on the team. Foster is quickly becoming one of my favorite players by default. It's not necessarily because I'm liking him more, I'm just liking many of his teammates less and less.

    Harrison - C, D minus - The sky could still be the limit for Harrison. Centers often have as many as 3-4 "rookie" seasons in a row before they truly get the game at this level. BUT - Everyone should be concerned about his hot-headedness. I'm starting to believe that there will be no cure for that, and that could leave him in the "liability" column for his entire career.

    Croshere - B, B - Pro Cro. That's all I have to say.

    Granger - B, B - The sky IS the limit for this kid. Seeing him develop has been one of THE true reasons to follow the team this year.

    Stojakovic - A, C - Yes, I'm giving him an 'A' in the IQ category. I followed him lightly in Sacto and assumed like many of us that he was a fairly one-dimentional player. Now we're all wondering "Who is THIS guy?" He's as complete a basketball player as we have on the team. But as a teammate, he's still the new guy, accepted and respected but not a leader by any means. That could change if he returns next year. Until then, he gets a "C'

    Jones - C, B - Jones doesn't know the game very well but inspires his teammates. Sometimes that's enough.

    Jackson - C, F - Jackson knows the game well enough, particularly on defense. Is he refusing to play the game while he waits for his number to be called, or is he being a teammate and filling the "role" he's being asked to fill? I'm out of answers for him and frankly I'm out of patience too.

    Tinsley - B, D - Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde. Which one is going to show up next? You'll have to talk to a psychic, because that's the only person that would even CLAIM to know. Everyone else has given up on claiming anything about this guy.

    Johnson - B, B - Yup, I think Johnson is better than many of those here give him credit for. To call his play at PG conservative would be an understatement. But what most of us won't admit is that conservative play from our point guard is often exactly what we need.

    Jasikevicius - B, D - we thought we were getting a winner and we ended up with a whiner. To me, he's starting to become the new Artest - in other words, he's the guy that I'm taken to forgive over and over in hopes that he'll improve his situation and get with the program. Every time I see him blow his top over a mistake he makes and then make ANOTHER mistake because of his self-created distraction, I wonder where the "leader" we recruited last summer ended up.

    Gill - C, C - Everybody remember Gill stepping up last season? I do, and I'm one of the only ones that believed that he deserved the second year on his contract. He earned it through effort.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Basketball IQ and Mental toughness. That's all this team needs to be one of the best. Unfortunately, it seems to be too big an issue for this team.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  19. #19
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    45
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Mourning
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I really aggree with you on splitting this into both Bball IQ and Mental Toughness.

    However, you rate David a "B" for his basketball Intelligence and Sarunas a "C" ? Aren't you letting your personal dislike of a player get into the way of a fair analysis in this one?

    Offcourse, the list is personal, I'm just quite curious how you could possible EVER call David "smarter" (in Bball terms) then Sarunas, because I see it completely the other way around to be honest.

    Regards,

    Mourning
    See, I think David really understands how to play the paint. I think he's lazy at times with the way he uses his hands on defense, but his positioning, footwork, and boxouts are excellent, especially at the offensive end. And that's the stuff that usually takes centers a long, long time to learn. There are other skills he lacks, of course, but his interior presence tells me that he's got a high bball IQ for his position. And if he can't get the ball in a place where he can make his move (and he's got a beautiful jumphook from the left block, for example) then he'll move it along and not force anything.

    Saras, on the other hand, has a really bizarre way of showing his bball IQ. I hate to keep coming back to it, but the essence of Saras's game as a rookie is from the Philly game in November... standing in the middle of the court, telling everyone else where to go defensively, while leaving his man, the best shooter on the court, wide open to drill a three. He showed both how much and how little bball IQ he had on sequence. Average his "A" and "F" and you get a "C".


    Now I'll say this, there's always a bias against big men that "they aren't smart - they're only playing because they are big." For example, this is why there are people who actually have the audacity to say that Jordan was a better basketball player than Wilt. And that's just silly, IMO.

    So just because a guy plays in the post, without handling the ball for most of the shotclock, does not lower his bball IQ in my opinion. In fact, Harrison's understanding of where his "game" begins and ends, and the fact that he plays within those boundaries, enhances his bball IQ for me.

    What's our complaint with Harrison? Unlike our other hotheads, he doesn't forget his "game" when he loses his compsosure. He just goes nuts toward the officials. Still a problem, of course, so I gave him a "D" for mental toughness. But you don't see him try to face the basket and take a guy off the dribble or shoot a jumper over them, because he knows that is not his game.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  20. #20

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Philly game in November... standing in the middle of the court, telling everyone else where to go defensively, while leaving his man, the best shooter on the court, wide open to drill a three. He showed both how much and how little bball IQ he had on sequence. Average his "A" and "F" and you get a "C".
    If that's the case, then I would give F for him. But I doubt, he left the shooter wide open because of his BBIQ (he simply can't be that dumb) - its adjustment or smth. but it hardly has something to do with IQ. And one of the reason You can write Harrison B is Saras BBIQ (imho). I respect Your opinion, just my 2c.
    I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

  21. #21
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    45
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    IMO, he was more concerned with showing everybody just what a great leader he was, and what great court vision he had, before he showed them that he belonged in an NBA game at crunch time.

    Its not that he's dumb, he was just using his bball IQ for the wrong reason (to begin establishling credibility as a leader before he established credibility as a player.)

    Maybe we'd look the other way if it was a seasoned vet telling a rookie where to go defensively while getting burned. But it was just the opposite, it was a rookie in his first home game making a very bizarre "rookie mistake."

    Vision = good. Judgment = bad. Leads to a middle grade overall for bball IQ. If he improves his judgment, he'll be a contributing member of the rotation. This is just one example but there are many similar ones.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  22. #22
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,986

    Default Re: Q.O.D. for Monday

    Peck, I stopped reading after you said McKey has a high basketball IQ. I need to gather myself and continue now

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •