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Thread: Key thing missing from PG position

  1. #1
    Member jcouts's Avatar
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    Default Key thing missing from PG position

    Not shooting, not ball handling, not defense, not attitude, not turnovers...
    Not just all of those things combined, with several others.

    What we lack and have lacked since Mark Jackson left the roster in our PGs is

    Certainty. Consistency. Reliability.

    We never, ever know what we're going to get from our PGs, from one day to the next. How many championship teams in the last 25 years have had teams with as much unpredictability at the PG position than the Pacers have had? Shoot, go ahead and throw in the runner ups as well. There are very few teams that have won without a consistent, reliable and effective PG.

    Champion Runner-up
    San Antonio Spurs - Tony Parker Detroit Pistons - Chauncey Billups
    Detroit Pistons - Chauncey Billups Los Angeles Lakers - Derek Fisher
    San Antonio Spurs - Tony Parker New Jersey Nets - Jason Kidd
    Los Angeles Lakers - Lindsay Hunter New Jersey Nets - Jason Kidd
    Los Angeles Lakers - Ron Harper Philadelphia 76ers - Iverson/Snow
    Los Angeles Lakers - Ron Harper Indiana Pacers - Mark Jackson
    San Antonio Spurs - Avery Johnson NY Knicks - Chris Childs/Charlie Ward
    Chicago Bulls - Ron Harper Utah Jazz - John Stockton
    Chicago Bulls - Ron Harper Utah Jazz - John Stockton
    Chicago Bulls - Ron Harper Seattle SuperSonics - Gary Payton
    Houston Rockets - Kenny Smith Orlando Magic - Penny Hardaway
    Houston Rockets - Kenny Smith New York Knicks - Derek Harper
    Chicago Bulls - BJ Armstrong Phoenix Suns - Kevin Johnson
    Chicago Bulls - BJ Armstrong Portland Trail Blazers - Terry Porter
    Chicago Bulls - John Paxson Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson
    Detroit Pistons - Isiah Thomas Portland Trail Blazers - Terry Porter
    Detroit Pistons - Isiah Thomas Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson
    Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson Detroit Pistons - Isiah Thomas
    Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson Boston Celtics - Dennis Johnson
    Boston Celtics - Dennis Johnson Houston Rockets - John Lucas
    Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson Boston Celtics - Dennis Johnson
    Boston Celtics - Dennis Johnson Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson
    Philadelphia 76ers - Maurice Cheeks Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson
    Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson Philadelphia 76ers - Maurice Cheeks
    Boston Celtics - Tiny Archibald Houston Rockets - Calvin Murphy
    Los Angeles Lakers - Magic Johnson Philadelphia 76ers - Maurice Cheeks


    How many guys in the left column were guys with Tinsley-itis?

    He's a good PG, but not good enough to win the big one.
    Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Maybe Mark will come out of retirement???


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    Call me Kauffie Kaufman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Thanks for taking time to compile the list... Impressive tally of names, that's for sure.
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    [QUOTE=jcouts]

    I want Tinsley gone as bad as the next guy, I think he's our major problem. However, he's good enough to run a championship team. He's as good or better than these guys.


    Champion Runner-up

    Los Angeles Lakers - Derek Fisher
    Los Angeles Lakers - Lindsay Hunter
    San Antonio Spurs - Avery Johnson NY Knicks - Chris Childs/Charlie Ward
    Houston Rockets - Kenny Smith Orlando Magic - Penny Hardaway
    Houston Rockets - Kenny Smith New York Knicks - Derek Harper
    Chicago Bulls - BJ Armstrong
    Chicago Bulls - BJ Armstrong
    Chicago Bulls - John Paxson

    I think he's our major problem because he's in our most important position. He's injured a lot so there's no continuity. Plus he shoots too much when he's not on.

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    [QUOTE=Will Galen]
    Quote Originally Posted by jcouts
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    I want Tinsley gone as bad as the next guy, I think he's our major problem. However, he's good enough to run a championship team. He's as good or better than these guys.


    Champion Runner-up

    Los Angeles Lakers - Derek Fisher
    Los Angeles Lakers - Lindsay Hunter
    San Antonio Spurs - Avery Johnson NY Knicks - Chris Childs/Charlie Ward
    Houston Rockets - Kenny Smith Orlando Magic - Penny Hardaway
    Houston Rockets - Kenny Smith New York Knicks - Derek Harper
    Chicago Bulls - BJ Armstrong
    Chicago Bulls - BJ Armstrong
    Chicago Bulls - John Paxson

    I think he's our major problem because he's in our most important position. He's injured a lot so there's no continuity. Plus he shoots too much when he's not on.

    I contend he is not better than Avery Johnson, Derek Harper or Penny Hardaway at the time that each of them were playing in the finals.

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Penny Hardaway in his twilight might not have been as good as Tins but back then he was 100x better!!!
    "Sometimes, when you look Andy in the eyes, you get a feeling somebody else is driving." -- David Letterman

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the question about reliability and consistency, and not talent?

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    I'd be all up for Mark comin out of retirement........anything is worth a try at this point.
    Life without water is tough, life without air is hard,life with one leg only is wobbly, Life without Reggie Miller, is impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conrad Brunner
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    Veteran Austin Croshere, the longest-tenured Pacers player on the roster, has proven reliable when called upon, invariably ready to step in regardless of the circumstance.

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the question about reliability and consistency, and not talent?
    You are correct. We know the talent is there. But as is shown, the most talented PGs aren't always the ones who bring home the trophy.

    If it was all about talent, names like Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Baron Davis, and er, Jamaal Tinsley would probably be seen more in that list. But, you may notice a trend in those names: unpredictability.

    My case in point, we need stability, predictability, reliability and consistency at our PG position. I don't think Tinsley is going to ever give us that, be it from attitude, injuries or one thing or another. "There's just always something" with him. Larry should know firsthand, having spent how many championship series with one of the most reliable PGs in NBA history: DJ.
    Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Quote Originally Posted by jcouts
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    You are correct. We know the talent is there. But as is shown, the most talented PGs aren't always the ones who bring home the trophy.

    If it was all about talent, names like Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Baron Davis, and er, Jamaal Tinsley would probably be seen more in that list. But, you may notice a trend in those names: unpredictability.

    My case in point, we need stability, predictability, reliability and consistency at our PG position. I don't think Tinsley is going to ever give us that, be it from attitude, injuries or one thing or another. "There's just always something" with him. Larry should know firsthand, having spent how many championship series with one of the most reliable PGs in NBA history: DJ.
    You're right, but you've gotta have both, or you've gotta have another backcourt player who completely dominates the game (See Jordan, Michael). Every player on that list was both consistent and also had a solid season the year they went to the finals. I think what this shows is that your PG has to be healthy, but he also has to be a smart passer and a threat to score 20. Also, just about every guy on that list was a good enough ballhandler/smart enough passer to not get flustered by a full-court press.

    I see where you're going with this, saying Tinsley isn't one of those guys. I agree, currently he's not one of those guys. But if he stays healthy for an entire season/post-season, he is one of those guys. One other thing I can tell you, Anthony Johnson and Sarunas Jasik(etc.) are NOT those kind of guys. They aren't good enough as ball-handlers, and Anthony Johnson is not a smart enough passer.

    Oops! One other thing every guy on that list (with the notable exception of T. Parker) brought to the game: good on-the-ball pressure. Every one of those guys was a decent defender, and especially made it hard for the opposing PG to pick his team apart with clever passes. Tinsley has the ability to do that, but I don't think he'll ever consider it worth his time to play solid defense all the time. He'd lose too much street cred. Johnson and Sarunas are both too slow to get up into their man and cause problems.

    What this says is that none of our 3 good PGs are likely to ever be good enough to win us a title. So, during the offseason, we need to look at drafting a guy like that, or trading for one. Any suggestions?

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar
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    What this says is that none of our 3 good PGs are likely to ever be good enough to win us a title. So, during the offseason, we need to look at drafting a guy like that, or trading for one. Any suggestions?
    Just throwing out a few things here off the top of my head. There's Mike James with is own thread already. Brings some qualities mentioned but probably some drawbacks and then there's the slim chance of us getting him thing. Some only see him as a back-up, too.

    What does anybody know/think about Marcus Banks? He's young and for the most part unproven. Definitely more of a pass-first type although he's proven capable of contributing some offensively (nothing in the range of 20 ppg or anything) since getting moved to Minn. Good handle and really brings the ability to play D.

    I'm also unsure of his situation. I think he's in the last year of his contract but don't know how much he would command on the market or how intent the T-Wolves are on retaining him, etc.

    I also really like Delonte West but don't know how you pry him away from Boston. If you could come up with some deal that included him, maybe we could get em to put Kendrick Perkins in, too. Remember, just fantasizing here. No research on feasibility of any of these.

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    jscout said......"Not shooting, not ball handling, not defense, not attitude, not turnovers...
    Not just all of those things combined, with several others.

    What we lack and have lacked since Mark Jackson left the roster in our PGs is

    Certainty. Consistency. Reliability."


    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

    I believe your premise is wrong. Tinsley could play the whole year and the team would never win a title. He lacks in 3 of the five categories you listed
    namely shooting, ATTITUDE, and turnovers. He has never been a good
    shooter and is unlikely to change. His attitude has always reared its ugly head
    eventually. Sorry, but he has to go in trade. Pacers would never win with
    Ronnie and the same applies with Tinsley. How many pops to the old noggin
    will it take before enough is enough? JMHO.



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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    What you lack from your PG is basketball smarts. He's still an instinctive player.

    You also lack the consistency and reliability but if Tinsley had - or developed - basketball smarts, you'd have those things.

    Right now you'd have a better shot with AJ but he isn't the answer either.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Quote Originally Posted by jcouts
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    My case in point, we need stability, predictability, reliability and consistency at our PG position.
    Thats what you will get from Sarunas, that was his middle names in Europe and will be with the Pacers if he gets the chance.

    I don't think Tinsley is going to ever give us that, be it from attitude, injuries or one thing or another. "There's just always something" with him.
    Correct.

    Larry should know firsthand, having spent how many championship series with one of the most reliable PGs in NBA history: DJ.
    Yes, he knows and he is never wrong... once again im talking about Sarunas. Greatness knows Greatness.

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    What the Pacers need from the PG position is a healthy, pre-brawl Jamaal Tinsley.

    Too bad that's an oxymoron.

    One of the lingering effects of the brawl and our shortened lineups is that Jamaal was forced to be a scorer last season.

    I said, and I think I said it in the famous, "This Team is Built for the Regular Season" thread last season that the Pacers had unexpectedly uncovered their new #2 scoring option last season and his name is Jamaal Tinsley.

    Unfortunately, the rest of the team is not in sync with that. And Jamaal does not appear to be in-sync with the rest of the team.

    Jamaal's drive-and-finish or drive-and-dish moves are are second best offensive plays, behind giving the ball to JO in the post. Peja should be relying primarily on JO's post-up game and Jamaal's drive-and-dish to set up his shots. And SJax should be no higher than fourth on the pecking order.
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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    Jamaal's drive-and-finish or drive-and-dish moves are are second best offensive plays, behind giving the ball to JO in the post.
    The games I've seen the drive-and-dish plays aren't the problem. The problem's him taking jump shots.
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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Yeah, Tinsley's jumper should be option #194,397. Used just often enough to keep the defense honest, and no more.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Quote Originally Posted by jcouts
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    He's a good PG, but not good enough to win the big one.
    IMHO....there should be a distinction......he's a very good PG and may even be the best PG the Pacers have to win it all.

    The problem is that....to the emphasize the point that you are bringing....he is not consistent for various reasons to achieve that goal....either due to his tendency to revert to his "shoot-first" mentality....his penchant for turnovers....and ultimately due to his tendency to miss games for some medical reason.

    I seem to recall someone bring this up before....but is it surprising that AJ's recent slide coincided with the return of Tinsley? I don't know what it is....but I was much more happy with the AJ/Sarunas PG tandem then when Tinsley returned. We may not have been flashy at the PG spot.....I know that it wasn't the best PG rotation that we could put on the floor.....but I knew ( and the players knew ) what to expect when both were in the lineup.

    Its important to note that when it comes to one of the most important positions on the team......the starting PG position.....the one position that pretty much dictates how the offense is run.....this level of inconsistency ( when it comes to Tinsley ) does not help the team.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    What the Pacers need from the PG position is a healthy, pre-brawl Jamaal Tinsley.

    Too bad that's an oxymoron.

    One of the lingering effects of the brawl and our shortened lineups is that Jamaal was forced to be a scorer last season.

    I said, and I think I said it in the famous, "This Team is Built for the Regular Season" thread last season that the Pacers had unexpectedly uncovered their new #2 scoring option last season and his name is Jamaal Tinsley.

    Unfortunately, the rest of the team is not in sync with that. And Jamaal does not appear to be in-sync with the rest of the team.

    Jamaal's drive-and-finish or drive-and-dish moves are are second best offensive plays, behind giving the ball to JO in the post. Peja should be relying primarily on JO's post-up game and Jamaal's drive-and-dish to set up his shots. And SJax should be no higher than fourth on the pecking order.
    Um...yeah! This is exactly it. No doubt. All of the other points are moot IMO: If Tinsley took 5 shots per game and was actually a PG for the other possessions (instead of shooting), he would be exactly what this team needs at the pg spot. You'd think somebody could get it into his head not to shoot. This is one of the few things that makes me wonder about Rick Carlisle. Has he not noticed this? No offense to Jay but if Jay has figured out exactly what's wrong and come up with a solution shouldn't Rick, who by all accounts is a basketball mastermind, be able to figure it out as well?

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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom
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    Has he not noticed this? No offense to Jay but if Jay has figured out exactly what's wrong and come up with a solution shouldn't Rick, who by all accounts is a basketball mastermind, be able to figure it out as well?
    I have never been able to figure out why Carlisle.....a coach that has been known to have a very controlling yet methodical way of running his offense.....has not been able to reign in players like SJax or Tinsley when they continually shoot the ball despite the fact that they can't hit the broad side of the barn.

    I can only think of 3 possible answers:

    A ) The key scoring options on the team ( SJax, Tinsley, and to a lesser extent....JONeal, AJ and Freddie ) have tuned Carlisle out and not listening to him when he says "maybe you should pass the ball first instead of hoisting up your 17th missed FGA".

    B ) As Jermainiac has pointed out in the past ( which seems valid )....Carlisle doesn't have the fortitude to stand up to his starters and bench their @ss for continually doing something that is bad for the team....which can also be said for SJax....JONeal and even AJ.

    C ) A combination of both A and B.

    Either its one of the above answers ( which is more likely ) or he is still in control of the offense and is actually calling plays for them to continually shoot the ball ( which I find difficult to believe ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Key thing missing from PG position

    I don't think Tinsley really cares about Carlisle anymore. He doesn't really have respect for him. He really did during our 61-win season when Rick benched him for the first part of the season.

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