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ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

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  • #16
    Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

    Originally posted by jcouts
    Regarding class basketball, I definitely think it promotes underachieving as far as the smaller schools go. When I was in high school, Avon wasn't half the size that it is now, but schools like Ben Davis, Pike and North Central were still on our schedule in all sports and you knew that if you wanted to get to the next level, you had to go through the powerhouses.
    I see from your profile that it says you're from Boulder CO. I think you need to spend time in a small high school gym before you say it promotes underachieving.

    I graduated from a small school, and played varsity from 01-04, and we worked VERY hard. We went to team camps, individual camps, open gyms, weight liftings, and condition practices both in the mornings and nights. That's just team wise, not to mention all the AAU tourneys I played in, nor the industrial leagues and 3-on-3 tournaments.

    We CAN'T play schools like Ben Davis, Pike, or NC. They won't put us on they're schedule. We played New Castle, who just won the 3a title, Jay Co, who New Castle beat in state, and only play one other 1a school that we wouldn't have seen in conference or sectional play.

    My alma-mater is trying to schedule Connersville and Muncie South, but it's up to whether or not they want to make it work.

    Winning a two sectional swith all 1a schools means no less to me than if we had to play bigger schools. It is the setup that's in place, so we go with it.


    I think it's funny to walk into Irving gym and take it too players that played at bigger schools, who think they're really good because they won a sectional at a big Indy school, or even won district from a school in Chicago. Small schools still produce VERY good players, but it's hard to get a team filled with the same athletic ability and talent. You could place the top players from 1a schools and place them on 4a and 3a teams, and they'd fit in.

    I couldn't make it through reading that article, especially after reading the part about players leaving Indiana to go other places. I've already posted Jason Whitlocks article in the S&E forum about Davis's "attempt" to recruit Oden, and why he fell short. It's pretty disgusting to read Forde's article and have him try to paint the picture that kids leave because they don't like Indiana anymore. He should do his homework, like actually attending high school games, before he throws out his theory.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

      Originally posted by Since86
      I see from your profile that it says you're from Boulder CO. I think you need to spend time in a small high school gym before you say it promotes underachieving.

      I graduated from a small school, and played varsity from 01-04, and we worked VERY hard. We went to team camps, individual camps, open gyms, weight liftings, and condition practices both in the mornings and nights. That's just team wise, not to mention all the AAU tourneys I played in, nor the industrial leagues and 3-on-3 tournaments.

      We CAN'T play schools like Ben Davis, Pike, or NC. They won't put us on they're schedule. We played New Castle, who just won the 3a title, Jay Co, who New Castle beat in state, and only play one other 1a school that we wouldn't have seen in conference or sectional play.

      My alma-mater is trying to schedule Connersville and Muncie South, but it's up to whether or not they want to make it work.

      Winning a two sectional swith all 1a schools means no less to me than if we had to play bigger schools. It is the setup that's in place, so we go with it.


      I think it's funny to walk into Irving gym and take it too players that played at bigger schools, who think they're really good because they won a sectional at a big Indy school, or even won district from a school in Chicago. Small schools still produce VERY good players, but it's hard to get a team filled with the same athletic ability and talent. You could place the top players from 1a schools and place them on 4a and 3a teams, and they'd fit in.

      I couldn't make it through reading that article, especially after reading the part about players leaving Indiana to go other places. I've already posted Jason Whitlocks article in the S&E forum about Davis's "attempt" to recruit Oden, and why he fell short. It's pretty disgusting to read Forde's article and have him try to paint the picture that kids leave because they don't like Indiana anymore. He should do his homework, like actually attending high school games, before he throws out his theory.
      I spent 15 years of my life playing in small school gyms in Indiana. Loved that musty smell, squeaky hardwood, dim lighting. I grew up in the middle of the cornfields spending 6 hours a day shooting on my slanted driveway with the sun (or rain) in my eyes all afternoon.

      I just moved out to Colorado in May of 2004.

      I know plenty about small Indiana high school gyms.

      But, you'll never convince me that the majority of players will work just as hard at their game, regardless as to whether they're playing against Michael Jordan or Scott Brooks.
      Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team. -- Scottie Pippen

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

        Originally posted by Bball
        -snip-Go in the gym. There on one wall, near the exit, is a yellowed photo of the 1954 Heltonville basketball team -- the team that won the school's only sectional championship. Damon Bailey, Heltonville product, says the photo is still there.

        The high school was closed 20 years later, but that team lives on in eternity in a town of about 500 souls. That's what this tournament once meant.

        The 64 statewide sectionals were the foundation of the tourney: the first round, the local scrum that produced one champion to go to the four-team regionals. From there the regional champ went to the four-team semistate, and from there to the four-team state finals in Indianapolis -- where only one team was crowned king of the state.

        In Lawrence County, the sectional was an eight-school brawl back in those days -- the little rural schools like Heltonville trying to knock off the "city" school of Bedford. School would be canceled and opening-round games would be played all day. It was the social event of the year.

        And if a little school won a sectional, it was a ticket to local immortality. Just ask the guys from that '54 Heltonville team.

        "For smaller schools, the state championships were the sectionals," Bailey said. "If you could come through the sectional and win it, you had that one great weekend of games to remember."

        And there are road signs and faded pictures and old trophies all over this state, commemorating those victories.
        Just got off the phone with Jay's_Dad@Section204. In between his complaining about how few likeable Pacers players the current team has, I got in a word edge-wise about this article, as I knew it would really hit home for him. He's on spring break this week so he hadn't seen it.

        He insists that Oolitc won in '54, although Heltonville may have won in '53. He then rattled off all the Bedford sectional champs for a couple of decades (it actually was a 16-team sectional, not an 8-team sectional back then) including his Bedford teams in 61/ 62/ 63. FWIW, the 1963 net from the tourney is still attached to his "most outstanding athlete" trophy.
        Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
        Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
        Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
        Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
        And life itself, rushing over me
        Life itself, the wind in black elms,
        Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

          I find blaming deteriorating interest of high school basketball on the class system ridiculous. First off, even from the time I was in high school, the amount of entertainment options available to people has grown exponentially. Secondly, no matter how you slice and dice the tournament, it is still the same teams competing. If it is David and Goliath you want then you can schedule one of those matchups any night during the season and watch Waldron get pasted by 65 by the likes of Lawrence North. If you want the same sectional matchups that existed when the old one class system existed, then schedule a tournament within your county that includes those teams.
          There is nothing preventing intraclass matchups from occurring anytime during the season. I find what is most detrimental to the current kids playing is the constant derogation by worshippers of the one class system about how inferior the current system is. I know this: the 3A state title game between Plymouth and Washington last year was about as good of game as you would ever hope to see and I feel sorry for anyone who would tune that out because it is class basketball.
          The talent mentioned in the article with Oden, McRoberts, Gorden, etc. whom all played on the same AAU team at one time and dominated at the national level is indication that the state of basketball is still fine.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

            I love that my home town won the 3A Title this year, but I still would rather have a 1 champion system.

            Imagine having 4 NBA champions each year. Not divisions, not conferences, NBA.

            It would be enough for me, if they simply gave each class' title a different name than just "State Champs" and then had a 2-round "Final Four", if you will, of the class winners to determine the State Champions.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

              Originally posted by Hicks
              I love that my home town won the 3A Title this year, but I still would rather have a 1 champion system.

              Imagine having 4 NBA champions each year. Not divisions, not conferences, NBA.
              Comparing HS and NBA is apples and oranges. NBA has a draft slanted to benefit the worst teams and a salary structure to promote parity. HS basketball has none of that, which is why there are teams stocked with D1 talent like Pike and Larry North, and others which compete just as hard and play with great heart that aren't in the same ballpark talentwise. I want to see Lapels and Waldrons and Lafayette Central Catholics of the world exposed on a larger stage. I don't understand why people are fully supportive of competive structures in other sports such as wrestling or football, but deride it in basketball. Did the kid at 105lbs not earn his state title because he didn't defeat the heavyweight?

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                Originally posted by McClintic Sphere
                There is nothing preventing intraclass matchups from occurring anytime during the season.
                Huh?

                The intensity during the regular season was NEVER the same as the intensity in the Sectionals, it didn't matter if you were playing Avon or Ben Davis.

                Any idea that the sectionals are the same as any other regular season game is ridiculous.

                Originally posted by McClintic Sphere
                I find what is most detrimental to the current kids playing is the constant derogation by worshippers of the one class system about how inferior the current system is.
                Ahh, now that's convenient. "The reason it isn't working is because people keep saying it isn't working. If everyone would just say it was working, it would work."
                BillS

                A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                  Originally posted by billS
                  Ahh, now that's convenient. "The reason it isn't working is because people keep saying it isn't working. If everyone would just say it was working, it would work."
                  I didn't state it wasn't working, only that I was tired of the constant *****ing by people who actually believe there would be some magical transformation if they returned to the old system.
                  I was at the Damon Bailey championship in the Dome. That was a complete anomoly attendence wise. For one, you had the presence of Bailey, who had been touted nationally since 8th grade, plus you had the first championship in the Dome. Attendance dropped precipitously in ensuing years and the IHSAA was embarrassed in holding it there by the cavernous empty sections. Attendence had been dropping for years before they instituted class ball.
                  Another thing people don't realize with the spectre of Milan hanging over the whole debate, is that Milan wasn't really a small school at the time. My dad attended Fishers High School and his graduating class was 10 people of both genders. People around here who know how large Fishers is now should appreciate the change. That was pretty much standard for the day. Milan was a moderately sized school relative to others in the days before consolidation, not small or tiny as some people believe.

                  Originally posted by BillS
                  The intensity during the regular season was NEVER the same as the intensity in the Sectionals, it didn't matter if you were playing Avon or Ben Davis.
                  They tried matching up the champions from each class for a number of years in tournament-sanctioned play, but it was not very competitive, nor drew much interest.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                    Originally posted by McClintic Sphere
                    They tried matching up the champions from each class for a number of years in tournament-sanctioned play, but it was not very competitive, nor drew much interest.
                    By the time you're down to one school in each class, there isn't any room for a lot of excitement. The smaller schools haven't really built up to being Cinderella.

                    A single tournament is not going to generate the interest of the sectional/regional system, and when those were split into classes where you play teams you haven't seen and have no real rivalry with, the interest drops from the beginning.
                    BillS

                    A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                    Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                      Originally posted by Hicks
                      I love that my home town won the 3A Title this year, but I still would rather have a 1 champion system.

                      Imagine having 4 NBA champions each year. Not divisions, not conferences, NBA.

                      It would be enough for me, if they simply gave each class' title a different name than just "State Champs" and then had a 2-round "Final Four", if you will, of the class winners to determine the State Champions.

                      Flawed logic; therefore, invalid argument.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                        Originally posted by BillS
                        By the time you're down to one school in each class, there isn't any room for a lot of excitement. The smaller schools haven't really built up to being Cinderella.

                        A single tournament is not going to generate the interest of the sectional/regional system, and when those were split into classes where you play teams you haven't seen and have no real rivalry with, the interest drops from the beginning.

                        Believe me, I know of which you write. When I was at Westfield, we were in the Carmel Sectional with both Carmel and Noblesville dwarfing the other schools in student population and I have never seen a level of excitement as when we knocked off heavily favored Noblesville one year or when Sheridan, the smallest school in the county knocked off host Carmel to advance to the regional. I just think a lot has changed even since those days that have led to the Marion County superpowers, which are on a completely different level with most of the state.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                          Originally posted by McClintic Sphere
                          I just think a lot has changed even since those days that have led to the Marion County superpowers, which are on a completely different level with most of the state.
                          So sectional those superpowers against each other, which makes some sense since they are all in or around Marion County. Maybe figure out how to do something of the same thing with some of the other megaschools areound the state. Once they hit Regionals, it is free-for-all.

                          Yeah, it'll never happen because the apocryphal everyone "wants" to see those teams in the finals. I cry BS, in that it would keep the interest across the state in other sectionals rather than holding off until the Big School Finals.
                          BillS

                          A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                          Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                            They already do sectionalize the Indy metro area. The Hinkle regional funnels Pike, No.Central, Carmel, Ben Davis, Warren etc. The Pike-LN game was the de facto state championship. Does anyone really believe we would have had a different state champ any of the last 3 years if we scrambled it different?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                              I'll say this, I'm not a fan of class sports in HS, period.

                              But my wife's alma mater (Richmond) at one time was bigger than every other school in its REGIONAL (not sectional) - combined.

                              I'd hate to go to a small school in that shadow - you could have a great team but still no chance of competing against that.

                              I'd also hate for my child to go to a mega-school like Center Grove or Ben Davis; schools that have the same number of opportunities (12 spots on the varsity basketball roster) but 3x the number of students of a 3A school and 10x the number of students in a Class A school.

                              There are probably five students at Ben Davis that didn't even make the varsity roster that could form a very competitive basketball team. But they won't even get an opportunity to try or to learn the life lessons that come from playing a competitive team sport (which IMO is much more valuable than the stuff learned in a classroom, anyway.)

                              The biggest problem isn't Class basketball itself, its that consolidation has created some bohemiths while left other communities behind. And yet consolidation has not necessarily improved the education process and has not necessarily made education less costly. But that's way OT for a basketball thread.
                              Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                              Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                              Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                              Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                              And life itself, rushing over me
                              Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                              Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: ESPN: Hoops in Hoosierland

                                Right on, Jay. Once again, it takes a numbers man to better focus the debate. Consolidation is a community problem which supercedes the class basketball issue.

                                Comment

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