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Thread: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

  1. #1
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    I read it in this morning's Star. No time to dig up a link for it (time for bed). Carlisle says they need to start working toward the playoffs and getting that lineup comfortable together.

    As I read it, JO seems to have asked to start so that he can get in a better offensive rhythm (I might've misread that).

    Carlisle talked to AJ and told him what was up. AJ goes back to second string PG.

    Sarunas appears to still be odd man out and have no role or minutes in this new plan. Freddie's injury was mentioned and it appears Tinsley, AJ, and Sjax will share backcourt duties. Or that is how I read it...

    Foster, JO, Sjax, Peja, and Tinsley are to be the starters. It may or may not start today against Philly.

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  2. #2
    Lithfan
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Can I help you?

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...603260461/1088


    Carlisle devises 26th and final(?) lineup
    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com


    Indiana Pacers coach Rick Carlisle has settled on the starting lineup he plans to use the rest of the season.


    Carlisle is replacing Anthony Johnson and David Harrison with Jamaal Tinsley and Jermaine O'Neal.
    "With 15 games left, we have to get to the group we feel can make a run," Carlisle said Saturday afternoon.
    Tinsley and O'Neal will join Stephen Jackson, Peja Stojakovic and Jeff Foster in the starting lineup. The Pacers' key bench players will be Johnson, Danny Granger and Harrison. The switch will give the Pacers their 26th starting lineup this season. They host the Philadelphia 76ers this afternoon at Conseco Fieldhouse.
    Carlisle made the switch during a time when the Pacers are trying not only to lock up a playoff spot but also to make one last run at Cleveland for the fourth seed and home-court advantage in the first round of the playoffs. The Pacers trail the Cavaliers by five games with 15 to play.
    O'Neal's return to the starting lineup is expected today. He talked after Friday's loss to Detroit about getting back into the lineup because it would allow him to more quickly find his rhythm.
    "I have to find a way to get some easy baskets early, rather than having to take a bulk of shots to get a rhythm," he said. "Every game for this team is very, very important. Especially for me, it's important because I'm a big part of what this team does. I have to really pick my play up and make plays."
    O'Neal averaged 12 points, 6.5 rebounds and 27 minutes in two games after being out 24 games with a torn left groin. He shot 36 percent from the field and 50 percent from the foul line in those two games.
    "He's done a lot of good things, considering the amount of time he's been out," Carlisle said. "But also, you can tell there's an adjustment period here. This is going to take some time to get to full strength."
    Tinsley, who has played only 33 games this season, will make his first start since Jan. 24. He's been coming off the bench since returning from a right elbow injury March 7.
    Johnson will go to the bench after starting 44 games this season, during which he averaged 11 points and five assists. (In 21 starts this season, Tinsley has averaged 10.8 points and five assists.)
    With Fred Jones out with a thumb injury, the Pacers will go with a three-man rotation in the backcourt. Johnson will back up Tinsley at point guard and Jackson at shooting guard.
    "It's something I talked to A.J. about," Carlisle said about replacing Johnson with Tinsley. "At some point it was probably going to be time to make that switch. A.J. has been great about communicating back with me about it. Jermaine and Tinsley need to be together in the starting lineup on both ends of the floor."

  3. #3
    Member J_2_Da_IzzO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    I hope JO plays at the PF position.

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    I don't know why but I have little faith in that lineup. And Carlisle is being down right stupid in not including Saras in the rotation. Saras needs to play and learn. Bird went out and signed Saras for a reason. One of those reasons no doubt because Tinsel strength is injured a lot. With 15 games to go who thinks Tinsel won't get injured again before the season ends or early in the playoffs? Then Carlisle will have to play Saras and he won't be as prepared as he could be if given rotation time.

    Since I have little faith in Carlisle's chosen lineup, I get the feeling that several players will be traded in the off season.That is unless the Pacers make the Eastern Conference finals. Actually the only players that I'm sure will be Pacers next year are Granger and Harrison.

    Peja will most likely be resigned by the Pacers considering Bird has said he didn't trade foe Peja to let him get away.

    JO won't be traded unless it's for Garnett, who I think will be available this summer. However, I think the T-wolves might want more than the Pacers will part with. I could see JO and Tinsel, or JO and Jax, but the T-Wolves will probably ask for two starters and a young player. For instant, JO, and Tinsel or Foster, and Harrison or Granger. That won't happen.

    Back on topic, I like using AJ as a two guard. And the rotation is fine other than not using Sarunas. However, I would like Harrison to start and either play 30 minutes a game or foul out. I would also make him first option.

    I think if Carlisle would lean hard on Harrison, Granger, and Sarunas in these last 15 games we would have a chance of making some noise this year. As is, and knowing Carlisle, we will have an isolation offense that sputters against good defense. If he would jerk players when they make poor decisions while in isolations I might have more faith in his rotation. As is I see us losing to Detroit, Miami, or New Jersey, whichever round we play one of them in.

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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    And Carlisle is being down right stupid in not including Saras in the rotation. Saras needs to play and learn. Bird went out and signed Saras for a reason. One of those reasons no doubt because Tinsel strength is injured a lot. With 15 games to go who thinks Tinsel won't get injured again before the season ends or early in the playoffs? Then Carlisle will have to play Saras and he won't be as prepared as he could be if given rotation time.
    I agree. Certainly with Fred out, I don't see why Sarunas shouldn't get any minutes.

  6. #6
    Lithfan
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by J_2_Da_IzzO
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    I hope JO plays at the PF position.
    As long as both Foster and Pollard are healthy, why should JO play any C minutes?
    I think Rick goes with maximum potential lineup.
    The question is whever they can stay healthy and realize it.

    The positive is that SJax shots will go down.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    I agree with this decision. It is good for two reasons.

    1) We need to see how this lineup works together, just how good can it be. This will hopefully give us some idea of what to do in the future.

    2) If the pacers are going to make any kind of playoff run (like win one series) then they need to go with their best lineup and this should be it.

    As far as Saras goes. AJ is a better player, a better point guard and a better shooting guard. I would be in favor of going to a 3 guard rotation until Fred is ready to play.

    I must admit kegboy was 100% correct about Saras. And I've come to the conclusion that he's not capable of playing point guard in the NBA. He can be smothered by the most average defender, he cannot start the offense because he can't dribble into position to do so. I'm sorry to say this, I had high hopes for Saras, but Bird made a big mistake in signing the guy.

    Saras would need to play in a system like the triangle, where the point guard doesn't handle the ball much. Or he needs to play with a great shgooting guard, like Iverson, Jordan, Kobe. And I've haven't even mentioned Saras' defense yet.

  8. #8
    Lithfan
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I agree with this decision. It is good for two reasons.

    1) We need to see how this lineup works together, just how good can it be. This will hopefully give us some idea of what to do in the future.

    2) If the pacers are going to make any kind of playoff run (like win one series) then they need to go with their best lineup and this should be it.

    As far as Saras goes. AJ is a better player, a better point guard and a better shooting guard. I would be in favor of going to a 3 guard rotation until Fred is ready to play.

    I must admit kegboy was 100% correct about Saras. And I've come to the conclusion that he's not capable of playing point guard in the NBA. He can be smothered by the most average defender, he cannot start the offense because he can dribble into position to do so. I'm sorry to say this, I had high hopes for Saras, but Bird made a big mistake in signing the guy.

    Saras would need to play in a system like the triangle, where the point guard doesn't handle the ball much. Or he needs to play with a great shgooting guard, like Iverson, Jordan, Kobe. And I've haven't even mentioned Saras' defense yet.
    I'll just say that you and Kegboy are 100% wrong because all you care about is D.
    And now I will go away before somebody will trash about separate Saras thread etc...

  9. #9
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Lithfan
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    I'll just say that you and Kegboy are 100% wrong because all you care about is D.
    And now I will go away before somebody will trash about separate Saras thread etc...

    I hardly mentioned Saras defense, in fact I'm not basing my judgment on his defense

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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    I don't know why but I have little faith in that lineup. And Carlisle is being down right stupid in not including Saras in the rotation. Saras needs to play and learn. Bird went out and signed Saras for a reason. One of those reasons no doubt because Tinsel strength is injured a lot. With 15 games to go who thinks Tinsel won't get injured again before the season ends or early in the playoffs? Then Carlisle will have to play Saras and he won't be as prepared as he could be if given rotation time.

    Since I have little faith in Carlisle's chosen lineup, I get the feeling that several players will be traded in the off season.That is unless the Pacers make the Eastern Conference finals. Actually the only players that I'm sure will be Pacers next year are Granger and Harrison.

    Peja will most likely be resigned by the Pacers considering Bird has said he didn't trade foe Peja to let him get away.

    JO won't be traded unless it's for Garnett, who I think will be available this summer. However, I think the T-wolves might want more than the Pacers will part with. I could see JO and Tinsel, or JO and Jax, but the T-Wolves will probably ask for two starters and a young player. For instant, JO, and Tinsel or Foster, and Harrison or Granger. That won't happen.

    Back on topic, I like using AJ as a two guard. And the rotation is fine other than not using Sarunas. However, I would like Harrison to start and either play 30 minutes a game or foul out. I would also make him first option.

    I think if Carlisle would lean hard on Harrison, Granger, and Sarunas in these last 15 games we would have a chance of making some noise this year. As is, and knowing Carlisle, we will have an isolation offense that sputters against good defense. If he would jerk players when they make poor decisions while in isolations I might have more faith in his rotation. As is I see us losing to Detroit, Miami, or New Jersey, whichever round we play one of them in.
    I agree with you Will. I believe the line up that Rick has chosen to go with won't win. I hope I'm wrong but I don't see how three ball dominant players can coexist. Jax needs his shots because he addicted to them, Tinsley needs his to show his homeboys how its done and JO needs his to get into a "rhythm". Rick also wants JO to shoot out of his favorite ISO play. How will Peja get any shots? Foster lives on rebounds and will be the only one to actively go for them. Peja rebounds some and it helps.

    The second team with AJ running it will become ineffective because AJ will be jacking up shots looking to prove he's still a starter. Harrison is going to suffer because of this and Granger will look lost again. Fred is hurt but he lives to shoot too.

    I hope I'm wrong but I just can't see much advantage to this. Unfortunately its the only option the Pacers have. Saras won't even be on the Playoff roster and I think its because Carlisle really doesn't like him for some reason. Personality clashes, whatever reason I don't know.

    After the season ends, Bird and Walsh have got to do some serious thinking about where this team is going and how they are planning to get there. Some big changes need to be made in the off season.

    There is always next season....
    But an hour or so later, Hibbert wrote on his Twitter account: "Love this coach [and] I love this team. We can go far this year if we play like that. 2night we played our hearts out. Just didn't get the win."

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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I agree with this decision. It is good for two reasons.

    1) We need to see how this lineup works together, just how good can it be. This will hopefully give us some idea of what to do in the future.

    2) If the pacers are going to make any kind of playoff run (like win one series) then they need to go with their best lineup and this should be it.

    As far as Saras goes. AJ is a better player, a better point guard and a better shooting guard. I would be in favor of going to a 3 guard rotation until Fred is ready to play.

    I must admit kegboy was 100% correct about Saras. And I've come to the conclusion that he's not capable of playing point guard in the NBA. He can be smothered by the most average defender, he cannot start the offense because he can dribble into position to do so. I'm sorry to say this, I had high hopes for Saras, but Bird made a big mistake in signing the guy.

    Saras would need to play in a system like the triangle, where the point guard doesn't handle the ball much. Or he needs to play with a great shgooting guard, like Iverson, Jordan, Kobe. And I've haven't even mentioned Saras' defense yet.
    So now that Saras hasn't played for a while, you're giving up on him?

    From what I've seen from him this season, I still think he could be a good back-up PG.

    Defense: man-to-man defense is certainly his weakest point. He's not that great of an athlete so whenever he's matched up one-on-one you know he's gonna get beat of the dribble 4 out of 5 times. I don't think that should be that big of a problem for a back-up PG. The team should recognize that and give help when needed.

    Other than that, his team defense is ok. He knows when and where to help out because of that great basketball IQ of his.

    Offense: he has problems bringing the ball up the court when being pressured. To be precise, I don't think it's his ball handling that causes those problems. His ball handling is ok to me, it's just quickness and speed he lacks against most (more athletic) PG's in the NBA. As you mention, that problem can also be fixed by letting the SG do most of the ball handling. And I think Sarunas recognizes that himself too. Back in the days when he was the 2nd unit PG most of the times he instantly passed the ball to Fred Jones, also with the intention of setting up the ball movement.

    He's no driving/slashing guard. Again, that has to do a lot with his lack of athletism in comparison with most other NBA PG's.

    On to the positives. He has great court vision. The problem here is, that, with the adjustment of coming to the NBA, where the game is played faster, sometimes that court vision doesn't always pay off because his execution isn't fast enough. After a while, with that great basketball IQ of his, he should be able to adjust to that.

    There's no guard on our team that executes the pick-and-roll better than Sarunas. Pick-and-rolls give you easy baskets. And easy baskets make you win basketball games.

    The ball movement will never suffer from his presence. He knows how to involve other teammates. His shot: he had a great season start, but then his shooting percentage went way down. Those things happen and I really expect it to get better if he gets another chance.

    Lastly this man plays with passion for the game. That's something you really can see watching him play.

    In summary: the man has his flaws, but overall I think he helps the team win. Especially thanks to his great passing he overcomes those flaws.

    (mods, feel free to move this to the official Sarunas thread. I just felt UB's post needed a response...)

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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    A pretty good lineup, if it stays healthy. Let's hope.

    Saras will get his shot next year. All he can to do is improve and stay ready. He's capble of being a very good backup.
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    I am not sure what the big fuss is all about. You look at the lineup and I don't see any other one you could put out there is better by leaps and bounds. With this lineup JO returns to the go to guy (what you guys want that to be Danger, a rookie?) By leaving Harrison with the second unit it allows him to be a more prominent fixture in the offense( just where would he get the shots with JO, Peja, Sjax, and Tins on the court at the same time?) Danny can be a great energy guy off the bench (remember Al a few years back?) With this line up you will see Sjax be used for what he was brought in here for( 3rd option)

    Considering the players on this team, I think this is the right lineup. All to often teams want to put their best 5 individual players on the court at the same time (How is that working Isaah and the Knickerbockers?) With this line up you have 2 rotations that have scorers, defenders, and rebounders. I will admit I would be a little more comftorable with a more experienced scorer on the second unit (please return to health Mr. Jones) but with the parts we have this can work. People look at this team and keep wanting more than what is there, sometimes you have to take what is given and role with it.

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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    This is the lineup that I want to see. We started the season with championship aspirations. The only change in this lineup is Peja, for Artest. This lineup should jump on teams from the start, and make them adjust to us.
    It's time for a playoff push, not develop rookies. It doesn't make any sense to worry about how this effects Harrison, or Granger, they both have the chance to stay in the rotation off the bench. If these guys can pile up a few wins, and start to Gel, they could be very dangerous.

  15. #15
    #PacerNation 317Kim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Wow 26th lineup. Doesn't seem like that much. I like it alot though..very energetic




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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Rick is obviously betting here on Tins ability to stay healthy, and though it's a real bet, I like the guts he shows.
    He also goes with what he believes in terms of game philosophy. He believes in defense. This is his first and last rule.

    The problem is that he was given a roster that is limited. Loosing Artest for Peja is a nightmare for him. Signing Saras is just an unnecessary load. The Pacers are an excellent defense team, but defense alone will get you that far. Trying to force offensive players like Tins, Peja, Saras into a system will get you that far.

    UB - If you see Saras and your conclusion is that he can not handle even the average defender then we must really understand the game in whole different ways. Ultimately, when you want to be champion you have to bring those players who can make a difference at money time. If you think AJ is better than Saras in that sense then we must really understand the game in whole different ways. This goes way beyond Saras. This is the philosophy of how to build a roster for championship. There are multiple AJs out there, but only few Ben Wallace, Robert Horry's and... Sarasses.
    (Yeah I left the extra s on purpose).

    Anyway - summing it up - I like Rick's guts, and think he still lacks the intuition needed for a champion.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    I would prefer to see Harrison / Oneal / Peja / SJax / Tinsley. I think everything points to Harrison being better with the starting lineup: He provides the big body that Oneal needs beside him, he can hit the mid-range jumper that should be available with the attention that Oneal and Peja receive, I think starting helps his confidence, and I think playing primarily with Tinsley will help him get the ball in scoring position easier.

    Foster is just as effective coming off the bench as he is starting. I like the energy that Foster / Granger / AJ bring off the bench - I think all three are excellent in that role. It just balances the lineup IMO.

    Harrsion is going to be extremly important if we are to get past the second round of the playoffs - Detroit seems to have problems with his size, and I believe he will match up well against Shaq and ZO. Let's get him comforitable and ready.

  18. #18
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    I think Harrison needs to come off the bench. He and Granger play very well together and during the time when the Pacers played the best ball of the season, DH came off the bench.


    .
    For those who for whatever reason want someone other than Foster starting, I think Pollard is the only other logical choice. If Pollard were a few years younger and was healthy, I might even agree that he should start over Jeff.

    Seed, I don't know if I understand your point. Are you saying Saras is a very clutch player, or in some way unique. I just don't see it. He does have great court vision, and passing ability when he can get into position (but he has trouble doing that) to make the proper pass. As far as his leadershipability, he may have some of that, but I think his teammates don't want to be lead by him

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I must admit kegboy was 100% correct about Saras. And I've come to the conclusion that he's not capable of playing point guard in the NBA. He can be smothered by the most average defender, he cannot start the offense because he can dribble into position to do so.
    That's what you said about Tinsley...
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    That's what you said about Tinsley...


    I can and do criticize Tinsley for a lot of things, but not on this issue. He can dribble anywhere he wants, he can get to the proper spots to start the offense. I've never questioned that, at least not for 2 or 3 years.

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    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I agree with this decision. It is good for two reasons.

    1) We need to see how this lineup works together, just how good can it be. This will hopefully give us some idea of what to do in the future.

    2) If the pacers are going to make any kind of playoff run (like win one series) then they need to go with their best lineup and this should be it.

    As far as Saras goes. AJ is a better player, a better point guard and a better shooting guard. I would be in favor of going to a 3 guard rotation until Fred is ready to play.

    I must admit kegboy was 100% correct about Saras. And I've come to the conclusion that he's not capable of playing point guard in the NBA. He can be smothered by the most average defender, he cannot start the offense because he can dribble into position to do so. I'm sorry to say this, I had high hopes for Saras, but Bird made a big mistake in signing the guy.

    Saras would need to play in a system like the triangle, where the point guard doesn't handle the ball much. Or he needs to play with a great shgooting guard, like Iverson, Jordan, Kobe. And I've haven't even mentioned Saras' defense yet.
    A bit soon to be judging Saras don't you think?

    But hey, We'll let you guys be the experts. Obviously if Saras doesn't tear it up his first year, he isn't NBA caliber. All Rookie PGs should come in and instantly dominate. Who cares if it's the hardest position in the NBA to play or that it requires a few years of chemistry with your team-mates to get good at..It's become apparent that Saras sucks.

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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Moses
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    A bit soon to be judging Saras don't you think?

    But hey, We'll let you guys be the experts. Obviously if Saras doesn't tear it up his first year, he isn't NBA caliber. All Rookie PGs should come in and instantly dominate. Who cares if it's the hardest position in the NBA to play or that it requires a few years of chemistry with your team-mates to get good at..It's become apparent that Saras sucks.
    What happened to the argument that, since he was 29 and had championship experience, he wasn't a "real" rookie and deserved the respect of a veteran?

    As far as his on-the-court skills, I don't see a need to trade him. He has his pluses and his minuses, and there are ways to integrate him into the lineup next year that will give him the opportunity to be a productive member of the rotation.

    That said, that can't happen unless he changes his attitude. I don't care if you think Rick's an idiot. If he's the coach, what he says goes. If he doesn't want you to bring the ball up against pressure, then accept it. If he wants you to play the wing, accept it. If, he tells you not to sag off and help defend when you can't even guard your own man, then for the love of all things merciful and holy, please accept it.

    I don't care if Cabbage is The Living God of European, Trapazoid Lane, Team Play, Crowd Pleasing, This Is How Basketball Is Supposed To Be Played Basketball. He's in the NBA now. And Rick knows more about NBA basketball than Cabbage. There is no vendetta here. Rick wants Cabbage to be a productive member of this team. But Cabbage has to play under his terms and not go whine to the media afterwards. Otherwise, he can sit on the bench.
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    GOD BLESS RICK CARLISLE, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    With this lineup change it wouldn't surprise me to see things get worse before they get better. The saving grace might be the second unit.

    The pressure is really going to be on JO to put up or shut up. I don't think he's played well in his return (but that is somewhat understandable after an 8 week layoff) and he's certainly not 'earned' his starting spot back based on the production of the past 2 games.

    IMHO, Carlisle probably realizes that but also realizes that unless JO wants to finish the year coming off the bench he is going to have to move him to the starting lineup in order to make an attempt at getting him comfortable and back in game shape at the same time. Bringing him off the bench would allow him to get into game shape but wouldn't be getting him comfortable with the first unit in game conditions. And with scant few games left, to get him back into shape, the rust knocked off, and THEN move him to the starting lineup would be another shock to the team's continuity.

    That said, he's probably not ready to start right now AND continuity is taking a hit in the short term for hopefully a long term gain. The first unit could be a liability for a few games before we (I hate using this word because it is over-used) gel.

    Of course another way to look at this is that Carlisle is once again unable to think outside of the box and is going back to his comfort zone. You want ISO's? ...We're gonna get 'em with this lineup. If JO asked to be returned to the starting lineup then he needs to put his money where his mouth is rather quickly. He's not been ready and IMHO should've been prepared to finish the season coming off the bench if he didn't get back to form.

    Also, it's a shame Carlisle uses an eggtimer for the substitutions because no law says an ineffective JO has to play the first 8 minutes of a quarter regardless of his conditioning or factor on the court. If he's not there yet, play him less minutes and work him back more slowly. If he gets it going on... ride him longer.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Tinsley and JO back to starting lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac
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    GOD BLESS RICK CARLISLE, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOT
    I know this won't last.....
    Super Bowl XLI Champions
    2000 Eastern Conference Champions





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