Announcement

Collapse

The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

A quick note to new members: Your posts will not immediately show up when you make them. An administrator has to approve at least your first post before the forum software will later upgrade your account to the status of a fully-registered member. This usually happens within a couple of hours or so after your post(s) is/are approved, so you may need to be a little patient at first.

Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
See more
See less

Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Page of 1
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous template Next
  • #1

    Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...2=stateChanged

    Updated: March 17, 2006
    Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race
    Insider
    Sheridan
    By Chris Sheridan
    ESPN Insider
    Archive

    INDIANAPOLIS -- Joe and Gavin Maloof walked out of Donnie Walsh's office Thursday afternoon with their whiter-than-white teeth affixed in duplicate smiles.

    Walsh wasn't quite as cheerful after showing them to the door, his face an expression of cautious satisfaction.

    Ron Artest
    Rocky Widner/Getty Images
    Ron Artest and the Kings have been squashing other teams.

    "They were happy with Ronnie and I'm happy with Peja, that was it," Walsh said of his conversation with the Maloofs, who were touring Conseco Fieldhouse to study its architecture and amenities, squirreling away ideas for the new building they hope to get built some day.

    "They're surprised that Ron has had the impact he's had," Walsh said. "But all those teams in the West, I told them when we were dealing with all of them and they were all bunched up: 'I don't know where he's going, but wherever he goes, that team is going up in the standings.' And that's pretty much what has happened."

    On the eve of Artest's return to face the team that traded him, there was reason for Walsh to be a little less bubbly than the young Sacramento Kings owners who had just left his office. The president of the Indiana Pacers had watched his team lose for the fourth time in six games the previous night, dropping to just two games above. 500 while falling to sixth place in the Eastern Conference standings.

    Nearly two months after sending Artest to the Maloofs for Peja Stojakovic, Indiana has failed to do what's being done by the Kings, winners of eight of their last nine as they've turned around a once-stagnant season and vaulted into the thick of the Western Conference playoff race. Included in that streak was a 4-1 Eastern road trip that ended eight days ago and was followed by home victories over the Memphis Grizzlies, Dallas Mavericks and Los Angeles Lakers that ran the Kings' home winning streak to 13 games.

    With 18 games remaining, the Kings are only two games behind Memphis for the coveted sixth seed in the conference, and Sacramento's remaining schedule is easier than the Grizzlies' (Memphis has 11 games remaining against plus-.500 teams to the Kings' eight, and Sacramento has nine home games to Memphis' seven).

    The Pacers, meanwhile, have dropped to just two games above .500, but they've yet to play with Stojakovic and Jermaine O'Neal on the court together. O'Neal is expected back from a torn groin muscle before the playoffs, which appear to be a certain destination for Indiana. The big questions, however, are how good and how cohesive will the Pacers be once they get there?

    "To a degree we've held our own, I think that's where we're at," Walsh said in an interview with ESPN.com at his office. "If we can hang in until when we get Jermaine back, we can come together and be a good playoff team. When we have Peja in there with Jermaine, it's a whole different story. Then our team makes more sense than it may appear now."

    Stojakovic has averaged 20.2 points in 20 games for the Pacers, impressing coach Rick Carlisle with his effort in two facets of the game that were suspect parts of Stojakovic's repertoire, defense and rebounding. But while Indiana has plodded along, staying in the top eight of the conference standings, there's almost nobody looking at them as the same threat to win a title as they were when Artest was part of the equation.

    "When we played Detroit in the game where [the brawl] happened, we didn't have Reggie [Miller], Anthony [Johnson] or [Jeff] Foster," Walsh said. "You look at that game alone without the fight, it was 'Hey, we're going to be good this year.' Then the fight happened, and everything in our world changed."

    Ron Artest and Kobe Bryant
    Andrew D. Bernstein/Getty Images
    The art of lockdown defense has a new home.

    Artest was suspended for the remainder of last season, and Indiana had a better-than-expected year before falling in six games to Detroit in the second round.

    This season began with a renewed sense of optimism, with Artest back in the fold and vowing to control his volatility while playing at an All-Star level.

    "I would have picked us as a threat to be in the Finals," Walsh said.

    But everything changed on the weekend in early December when Artest summoned Mike Wells of the Indianapolis Star over for a discussion and told him he wanted to be traded. Walsh was initially ambivalent about the story, but his mood took a turn for the worse a day later.

    "I saw him that night, a Saturday night, and I didn't make that decision [to trade him]," Walsh recalled. "I said I wanted to talk Monday. My thinking was I've got to get through this. Then the next day he came out and said it on two or three TV outlets, very definitively, that he wanted to be traded.

    "It wasn't just that he said he wanted to be traded. Players do that, and you can move past it and not trade him, but with Ronnie this had been the last thing he did in a series of 10 things, and he was getting so much attention with every single thing he did, I think it frustrated our fans, team and coaches.

    "And one thing he said to me when he told me, he said, 'Everything I do here is exaggerated. I can see it in the eyes of the players' -- and he was right," Walsh said. "If Ronnie ran off the court to go to the bathroom, the whole team would stop and say, 'What's he doing?' That's the kind of reaction he was getting here."

    So the Pacers decided to trade Artest. In the locker room, the decision was viewed as a sound one by everyone except Stephen Jackson. Some of the other Pacers still counted Artest as their friend, just not the kind of teammate they wanted to have around anymore. After sticking up for him during and after the Palace brawl, they felt betrayed. "You know, these kids are still going through court-mandated anger management class, they've got to go to Detroit to do community service, and that all came out of that fight where they supported Ronnie. So in their minds, that was it," Walsh said.

    But the offers that initially came in were underwhelming at best.

    Indiana thought it had a deal with the Clippers for Corey Maggette, but when the Pacers' doctors took a closer look at his foot injury they decided to back off.

    One month after making the decision to trade Artest, Walsh remembers getting a little edgy at the prospect that he had misplayed his hand.

    Peja Stojakovic
    AP Photo/Darron Cummings
    The Pacers are pleased with the play of Peja.

    "I did wonder: 'Am I going to get this done? Because if I can't we're headed to a day where it's going to get real difficult.'"

    The Kings ended Walsh's worrying when they made the decision to further their yearlong roster overhaul, adding Stojakovic to a list of the recently departed that included long-standing Sacramento stalwarts Chris Webber, Bobby Jackson and Doug Christie.

    The deal, however, nearly fell apart when Artest's agent, Mark Stevens, telephoned the Maloofs and scared them into backing out -- temporarily, as it turned out.

    Walsh believes Stevens was operating at the behest of another Western Conference team, but the trade finally went through after Walsh summoned Artest and Stevens to his office the next morning.

    "I think there were other teams in there trying to mess it up because of exactly what's happened. They wanted him, and they might not have had the player that would get him, but then they looked and said, 'If he ends up over here, now we have to deal with that.'

    "That was the first time I had gone through that where I have a [trade] conference call scheduled and the hour kept passing and passing, and I knew something was really wrong here. Then I found out [Artest's agent] had made that phone call."

    For now, Walsh is maintaining his patience and waiting to see what his team looks like when the postseason arrives. The Pacers have performed well against the East's division leaders (1-1 vs. Detroit, 2-0 vs. Miami, 2-1 vs. New Jersey), providing some hope.

    But if the season ends with a quiet fade-out, the Pacers will enter the offseason open to any and all changes that will get them back to being the caliber of contender they felt they'd be at the start of the past two seasons. Stojakovic will become an unrestricted free agent, and O'Neal could be dangled if a player such as Kevin Garnett goes on the trade market, as many believe he will. "We'll have to see where it goes. I think Peja is going to be a good player for us, and if we come together at the right time he can help us this year," said Walsh, who paused to reflect on the Artest trade while declaring no regrets.

    "It's a chapter in my history here that I wish didn't happen. I wish we didn't have to come to this point, but we did, and I think we came out as well as we could. At the end of the year we'll have to look back and see where we are and whether we can continue with this team, which I'd like to, or if we got to do more to get us back to where we thought we were."
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

    What a dumb premise for an article.

    Our two best players have been out with injuries, and he's criticizing the Pacers for not performing better after the trade.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

    Comment

    • #3
      Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

      Originally posted by Jay@Section204
      What a dumb premise for an article.

      Our two best players have been out with injuries, and he's criticizing the Pacers for not performing better after the trade.
      there is alot of games the pacers should have won whether they had there two best players or not. they lost a lead to the rockets on the road, they even lost games to raptors and hawks.

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

        Originally posted by Artest is the best!
        there is alot of games the pacers should have won whether they had there two best players or not. they lost a lead to the rockets on the road, they even lost games to raptors and hawks.
        Um, what part of "two best players injured" don't you understand? That's EXACTLY the reason we didn't win those close games. Let me put this into perspective for you. If Mike Bibby blows out his knee tomorrow, you're about to see 2 weeks of constant losing, followed by Ron attacking an official or opposing player. Stop pretending that personnel doesn't matter in terms of wins and losses. It's asanine and makes you look like a troll.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

          Originally posted by Jay@Section204
          What a dumb premise for an article.

          Our two best players have been out with injuries, and he's criticizing the Pacers for not performing better after the trade.

          Word.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

            I found it to be fairly objective. The Kings have reaped immediate rewards from the trade while we have not. We have been a mediocre team as the treading water analogy suggests.

            The fact that it's not a completely even comaprison due to JO's absence does come out in the quotes from DW. And I think it paints a fairly good picture of where we're at-if with JO back we don't make a good playoff showing, it will be time to think about a new direction. In other words, we're in a rather uncertain situation right now.
            I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

            -Emiliano Zapata

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

              One of our two best players is injured. The coach unfortunatly has a brain injury that makes him forget that AJ is not clutch and that Tinsley is.

              We would have won three of our four recent losses if AJ had not been in at the end.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

                Originally posted by D-BONE
                I found it to be fairly objective. The Kings have reaped immediate rewards from the trade while we have not. We have been a mediocre team as the treading water analogy suggests.

                The fact that it's not a completely even comaprison due to JO's absence does come out in the quotes from DW. And I think it paints a fairly good picture of where we're at-if with JO back we don't make a good playoff showing, it will be time to think about a new direction. In other words, we're in a rather uncertain situation right now.
                The headline and first 1/3 of the article were horrible, and do not reconcile with DW's quotes.

                Sheridan tried to spin this into whatever story he wanted to sell and, since it was stupid premise in the first place, delivered a very uneven article.

                Donnie's commentary was fascinating, though.
                Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                And life itself, rushing over me
                Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

                  Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                  Donnie's commentary was fascinating, though.
                  Agreed.

                  There was that rumor that the Lakers were trying to sabotage the trade, but I didn't give them much thought. Sounds like Donnie sure did, though.
                  This space for rent.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

                    Don't mess with the "Don". I suspect some calls were made and some
                    consequences were mentioned if people did not cooperate.


                    owl
                    {o,o}
                    |)__)
                    -"-"-

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

                      Originally posted by Jay@Section204
                      The headline and first 1/3 of the article were horrible, and do not reconcile with DW's quotes.

                      Sheridan tried to spin this into whatever story he wanted to sell and, since it was stupid premise in the first place, delivered a very uneven article.

                      Donnie's commentary was fascinating, though.
                      Actually, I think this quote from DW pretty much sums up the take of the article as well as the rationale for choice of title:

                      "To a degree we've held our own, I think that's where we're at," Walsh said in an interview with ESPN.com at his office. "If we can hang in until when we get Jermaine back, we can come together and be a good playoff team. When we have Peja in there with Jermaine, it's a whole different story. Then our team makes more sense than it may appear now."

                      I read this article as being actually pro-Donnie. Particularly at the beginning where I think it's kind of making the Maloof brothers out to look a little giddy about the immediate Artest rewards by how they left the office but also noting DW looked cautiously optimistic, like I may yet get the best of this deal.

                      Anyway, we're coming at if from the same view. Pacers should not be made to look bad from this deal. That would be a misrepresenation. Like you, I, too, find the DW stuff just great. Go Pacers!
                      I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                      -Emiliano Zapata

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        ESPN Insider Request: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

                        http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid...26id%3d2371734

                        Sorry if i put this in the wrong area - this is my first time requesting an espn article, but i would really appreciate it if someone posted this.

                        (EDIT) - My bad - someone already posted it - thanks anyway.
                        Never half-a** two things. Whole-a** one thing.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Re: ESPN Insider Request: Pacers tread water; Kings ride Artest into playoff race

                          http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=19985
                          Super Bowl XLI Champions
                          2000 Eastern Conference Champions




                          Comment

                          Previous template Next
                          Working...
                          X