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Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

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  • #1

    Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

    I've been fairly quiet on the entire Ron Artest thing since he was traded. I've done so out of respect of the guys who still liked Ron as a player & had to deal with the loss of him from the team.

    I have made some comments on it, mostly right after the trade, but basically I've tried to steer clear of this.

    I think enough time has passed now that we can honestly look & see where we are, where we were & maybe even where we are going.

    First, let's get this out of the way. We've all said it before but it is worth repeating again.

    Ron Artest is a phenominal basketball player. Top 20 player without question & I know it can be argued that he is a top 10 or higher player. But I'll just say he is in the top 20, you can decide from there where he fits.

    I think a lot of us have moved on from him, some of us moved on a long time ago but some just recently let go. But there are still the holdouts & let's be honest they will never let go.

    Before I go into this I will go ahead & make a bold prediction right up front.

    I do NOT believe Ron Artest will go Ron Artest on the Kings this season, nor do I think he will go Ron Artest next season either. I caveat that by this, I do not believe we will see him do it on the floor. What he does off time may cause some problems but I think even those will be deminished.

    Let me explain why.

    Well, it's not that hard really. I can actually tell you why Ron will be like a savior to the Kings in just three words.

    No Jermaine O'Neal.

    That's right, no Jermaine O'Neal. Now before you want to throw me off of a bridge & before Jay comes on here to remind all of us how Ron acted in Chicago before there ever was a Jermaine O'Neal hear my theory.

    Ron see's himself as a top gun & if you are gonna say that he is in the top 20 players as most of us agree it's hard to argue against him.

    However with the Indiana Pacers for the past 5 seasons the heirchy went like this.

    1. Jermaine O'Neal
    1a. Reggie Miller

    However Reggie always made sure to tell everybody who would listen that this was Jermaines team so IMO while Reggie was well liked & respected this hasn't been his team (other than in the minds of the fans) since the 00 team broke up.

    In Chicago Ron had to play behind a player who was very similar to J.O. in Elton Brand.

    Here is the problem with players like Brand & O'Neal. They depend on wing players to get the ball up the floor to them so they can get thier shots.

    A player like Ron can do it all. He can play in the post but he is also very capable of going the length of the court with the ball & scoring if he wants.

    J.O. can't do that.

    At the end of it all I think Ron just thought he shouldn't have to play second fiddle to a player who he thought he was better than.

    In Sacramento Ron is the King (pardon the pun). There is nobody on that team who is considered on the same level as Ron let alone somebody who he will have to play behind.

    This is his chance. He was thrown onto a team who was out of the playoffs & told to do anything & everything in his power to turn it around.

    So far he has done that & I'm saying he will continue to do that. He has a coach who puts the ball in his hands & he is allowed to pick & choose where the ball goes. He doesn't have to share the ball if he doesn't want to & so far he has been more than willing to do it.

    Now how will Ron react if things don't go his way? I can't say for sure but I have a sneaky feeling that as long as he is top dog he won't feel that the team lost because he was shut out of the offense so I don't think they will have a repeat of what we had in Miami.

    Now don't get me wrong, I'm not going all soft on the guy. I'm just saying that between Carlisle's offense & Jermaine O'Neal being on the team I think the formula in Indiana was just not going to work.

    Also for the record I cannot stand a player who has to dominate the ball as much as Ron does. I don't like it when he does it, when Jamaal does it or when Jackson or O'Neal does it. So the fact that supposedly Ron is often times bringing the ball up the floor for the Kings makes me ill, but that's just me.

    Now let's jump ahead to part # 2

    Well we might as well just go ahead & ask this right up front. I am asking you to put away your emotional response for a moment & remember this is me asking this so you all know I have no bias whatsoever for Ron Artest.

    Should we have moved Jermaine O'Neal & kept Ron Artest? Wait wait wait before I am told to fornicate with myself let me explain.

    I'm not talking about after Ron demanded a trade, by then it was to late. I'm asking if either last summer or the summer before when it should have been painfully apperant to TPTB that O'Neal & Artest could not survive on the same team if they shouldn't have chosen to get something for Jermaine then.

    Now remember I'm just asking I'm not advocating that this is what they should have done.

    I will give you all a scenario that I gave to Uncle Buck at Perkins when it was only 4 of us left & you tell me how you would respond.

    How differant would things have turned out if the Pacers let J.O. walk, signed Brad Miller for a reasonable contract & maybe pulled in a good solid shooting guard with the money left over?

    Before you just spit at the screen or fall over laughing I want you to think about it. How differant would the locker room have been, how differant would the team have been, how differant would Ron have been?

    Now Jay is going to tell us that it would not have been differant at all & he may very well be right. But is it what you believe as well?

    Again, I'm not advocating any of this I'm just asking.

    Point # 3

    Ok, now I will try & cover the where we were are & going part here.

    Where we were was cotton candy, yes I'm going to disparage the 61 win season again so feel free to skip over this part.

    I compare the Pacers over the past 3-4 years to Cotton Candy for a reason..

    Cotton Candy: looks great, taste great but it will not sustain you or nourish your body in any way & in fact eating to much of it is very bad for you.

    The Pacers over the past few years: Looks great, plays great but in no way will actually compete for any real title & in fact to much of it was self destructive & bad for it's fans.

    Hick's told me that I should be happy about the way this has all gone down this season & you know what, he's right. I am happy, I am more happy than I have been since the 00 season. Let's just say that I think it's been good to have some cleansing of the team & not just from Ron. I don't weep over other players being gone either.

    I look forward to the future & I believe that we now can really rebuild this team the way we should have if we were going to break up that old team.

    I digress.

    Where we were was a mirage an illusion. It was a group of individual masquerading as a team no focus, no unity & most cetainly no one goal. We had talent, we had potential but what we never had was IT. It being the one thing that seperates the champions from anybody else. We were nothing more than the 80's Bucks, Hawks or Cavs. Good teams that always won a lot of games but never were able to break free for whatever reason.

    Where we are today? That's the thing. Nobody knows & I think this frustrates the fans more than anything. We have less talent on paper & with the boat load of injury's we have had we have had a lot less talent on paper. I can't say that this team has an identity right now. For awhile Foster & Pollard were setting the tone & the offense was free flowing with motion & screens & pick & rolls. For whatever reason that has seemed to fade away. Pollard with his body wearing down is understandable but the switch in offense is hard to swallow.

    Also, there may still be some inner trouble on the team. We have to many point guards. This was a mistake I lay at the feet of Bird. I undertand he probably didn't trust Jamaal to make the season & that makes sense. But he should have either just moved Jamaal or he should have gotten a less talented guard who would be willing to play some of the two guard spot.

    We still don't know what this team is going to look like in a month because of what J.O. will bring to the table.

    Where are we going? This is rough. I don't know. When it was just Walsh running the show I could have told you like clockwork what to expect, but with LJB in the mix I have no idea. It's obvious to me though that he is not the greatest person to try & mix personality's on the floor. Not knowing that Saras did not want to play shooting guard at all is a major mistake IMO.

    I could see us coming back next season with the same team & them giving us the "we had to many injurys to evaluate the team" line or I could see them firing Carlisle & keeping the team in tact saying it needed a new voice or I could see Carlisle staying a lot of player be gone including J.O.

    Either way with Granger & Harrison here our future at least has glimmers of hope.

    Now how does Ron fit into any of this part? Simple, we were an illusion because talent wise the guy is a beast but he created the locker room troubles that caused the team to fail. Not being here & forcing us to make a trade for a player who we have no idea how he will fit in with J.O. causes us to not understand what our team will be like in a month & finally because he is gone we can build our team over with players who may not be as good talent wise, but character wise hopefully they will be better & thus in the long term make us a better team.

    I do want to remind you that while I am asking the questions about Ron & should he still have been here I am one of the few that wanted him gone for years. Both for stuff behind the scenes but also I was not a great fan of his style of play at times. So please don't confuse me with being a Ron fan, I'm just asking the questions.

    In reality, I'm glad he is gone but I will say this as well. I hope that when this is all said & done he is not the only one gone for next season either.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
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  • #2
    Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

    A quick interim thought crossed my mind as I read this and ponder your question(s)-

    What if we made only one change:
    Artest elevated to the #1 option.

    If Artest thinks his game is better than JO's then I would be inclined to agree. This ignores the lockerroom and other Artestisms tho. Then again, I've yet to be convinced JO doesn't have his own issues there (just of a different kind). Could/would've JO accepted a 'demotion'? Would it have been worth it to try?

    Sorry for adding more questions....

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    • #3
      Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

      Man, that's a good thread. Very good thread.

      I don't have specific answers to your questions, Peck (and they're good questions!), but there was one thing that really stood out to me when the trade talk was roaring. I was saving it for that mea culpa thread that never came (maybe this weekend would be a good time). People were saying Ron was crazy because he wanted a bigger part in the offense, yet was willing to go to Cleveland and be second fiddle to LaBron. There's a very simple answer to that: Ron thinks LaBron's a better offensive player than he is. He doesn't feel the same way about JO.

      Ok SoupIsGood is going to hurt me for saying this, but it's the truth: I think we should have made a play for Kevin Garnett. He's been available for the right price, and I think it's a price we could have paid. I think KG and Ron could have co-existed. I don't think JO and Ron could ever co-exist. There are a couple other players I'd have been willing to trade JO for, but not many. For the life of me, though, I'll never understand why we didn't try to get in on that action.

      One thing I'll never understand about you, Peck: I'll never understand how you can write such long posts and make me read the whole thing. When most people write 8-page posts, I just skip them. It's all blah blah blah. But there's nothing but beef in what you write. I really respect that.
      This space for rent.

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      • #4
        Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

        You spelled the words "too" and "different" wrong. If you're going write a novella...spell simple words correctly.
        I'm in these bands
        The Humans
        Dr. Goldfoot
        The Bar Brawlers
        ME

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        • #5
          Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

          also it's spelled Lebron not L"a"bron.


          If you're going to try to debate on a message board, use the technology at your fingertips and spell **** right.
          I'm in these bands
          The Humans
          Dr. Goldfoot
          The Bar Brawlers
          ME

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          • #6
            Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

            Damn anthem, he really burned you....

            The dreaded "spelling nazi" tactic....can anthem get off the mat before being counted out? Only time will tell.

            It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

            Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
            Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
            NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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            • #7
              Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

              I don't think it came down to Ron or Jermaine. I think it came down to Ron or Rick.

              I see it as Artest having a bigger problem with the style of play that Carlise was running & to a lesser degree, Jacksons role in that offense.

              Artest is aware of the talent that O'Neal has & although Artest might be a better player, he knows this team goes nowhere without O'Neal being a major part of its success.

              I doubt he felt the same for Jackson & his "option 2A" role on the team.

              Couple his feeling for Jackson & his distaste for what Carlise was running & there was little chance he would be happy here.

              It came down to either Carlise reworks the offense with Jackson getting a much smaller role, Carlise leaving or Artest leaving.

              Artest knew Bird was gonna back his coach, he would have had to. That means Artest is out. Better for him, better for us.

              Comment

              • #8
                Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

                Originally posted by Kstat
                Damn anthem, he really burned you....

                The dreaded "spelling nazi" tactic....can anthem get off the mat before being counted out? Only time will tell.
                Considering Anthems profession maybe he should be looking to hire the Dr.

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                • #9
                  Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

                  Originally posted by Dr. Goldfoot
                  also it's spelled Lebron not L"a"bron.


                  If you're going to try to debate on a message board, use the technology at your fingertips and spell **** right.
                  Sentences begin with capital letters. Please try to follow all rules of grammar, not just the 2-3 words you remember how to spell.

                  Thanks.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

                    Originally posted by Peck

                    Should we have moved Jermaine O'Neal & kept Ron Artest? Wait wait wait before I am told to fornicate with myself let me explain.

                    I'm not talking about after Ron demanded a trade, by then it was to late. I'm asking if either last summer or the summer before when it should have been painfully apperant to TPTB that O'Neal & Artest could not survive on the same team if they shouldn't have chosen to get something for Jermaine then.
                    Yes, I would have been in favor of moving Jermaine before Artest if we're talking two years ago. Simply because I do believe Ron's talent is in the top 10 because of his complete game.

                    I've never been a believer that Jermaine is the Max guy we've payed for. I'm not saying I don't like him, shoot he's been a great spokesman for the Ps and the face of the franchise. I still can't get over (maybe only my bad perception) that JO is lazy at times. Maybe it's just lack of fundamentals like boxing out and agressively going after rebounds. I know someone can throw out stats where JO gets 10 rebounds a game, but he could grab so many more.

                    Sorry, didn't mean for this to get into a Jermaine debate.

                    Bottom line is Artest (though I suspect there are others) absolutely tore this team apart. I will continue to hope he does well, but still believe his off court interests (music biz) at some point will interfere with his basketball career.
                    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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                    • #11
                      Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

                      Chauncey? The Chauncey? Good post Peck.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

                        In hindsight, I would be in favor of keeping Ron over JO a few years ago if other things had happened too. Keeping Brad Miller wouls've been a good start to that. Exploring who all was available at that time will probably only make me sad though!

                        You raise very good points, peck, regardless of spelling.

                        I like reading your posts and love what you bring to the table. If you still post your 'odd thoughts' AND stuff like this thread, I'd LOVE to see what you could come up without your writer's block.

                        Is it a fair statement to say that since we've kept JO and invested so much in him, that we are never going to have another Ron Artest caliber player beside him? If we had a chance to bring in someone else to fill the role that Artest was filling unhappily, would it lead to the same result? Is the main problem JO being a prima donna or Carlisle's system of enabling that attitude?

                        I still feel like this team is somehow broken even if we had everyone healthy. I think it starts with Jackson, but doesn't end there....



                        RESIDENT COUNTING THREAD PHILOSOPHIZER

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                        • #13
                          Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

                          Originally posted by heywoode

                          Carlisle's system of enabling that attitude?

                          I still feel like this team is somehow broken even if we had everyone healthy. I think it starts with Jackson, but doesn't end there....
                          It seems heywoode has brought up the point many continue to feel or struggle with conerning this team....Attitude.....

                          Who's got it? Sometimes attitude is good, but who has it and uses it in a negative way on this team?
                          You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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                          • #14
                            Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

                            I think there was a JO-Ron-Ron schism, but certainly a Ron-Ron Carlysle one to. And if you wanna throw in Jack, well I can't rule that out either even though he seemed to be the one guy that backed Artest til the end.

                            By the time of the trade demand it was a Ron-everybody conflict. So what difference does it make?

                            The cotton candy thing is an great metaphor. Totally agree. That being the case, I say be happy Artest is finally gone despite his talent and intensity and now let's continue to revamp this team by cutting ties with some of the other key actors in creating that illusion. Time to move in another direction.
                            I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

                            -Emiliano Zapata

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                            • #15
                              Re: Ok, I've waited for this day since the day the trade was announced....

                              Peck, you have enough stuff in your post to last about 3 weeks. So much stuff to comment on.

                              I don't have the time to address all three points. Would the team be better with Artest, Granger, Brad, Jeff and Harrison and not J.O. Well with J.O's injuries, yes. But we haven't seen Peja and J.O together yet, so I can't say for sure.

                              Peck, I agree with your first point completely


                              As to your 3rd point, I just hope the Pacers have a new point guard and shooting guard. I can't take the current point guard situation or Jax either. I'm thrilled with AJ and Fred as the backups, but we need two new starters.

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