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Thread: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

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    Default John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    I thought this was both informative and entertaining. John Oliver taking a look at tax payer funded stadiums.


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    more man than horse Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    and an addendum to the disgusting Twins commercial;

    Then there was the TV ad aimed at prodding fans to rally the legislature, which depicted Twins outfielder Marty Cordova going to see a sick child at the Minneapolis Ronald McDonald House. "If the Twins leave Minnesota, an 8-year-old from Willmar undergoing chemotherapy will never get a visit from Marty Cordova," the announcer intoned, as the screen faded to black. To make matters even more repulsive, it turned out that by the time the ad aired, the patient had died. Even Cordova, unaware that his charity would be parlayed into a stadium shill, protested.
    http://www.citypages.com/news/soft-sell-6711866

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    and an addendum to the disgusting Twins commercial;



    http://www.citypages.com/news/soft-sell-6711866
    Wow, talk about peddling good will for financial gain. People never cease to amaze me.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Yes corporate welfare as much as I don't care for Bob Kraft he at least paid for his own stadium I can respect that about him.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    I would actually support a federal law preventing this. Would prevent teams from holding cities hostage. Just look at the NFL and LA

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    I would actually support a federal law preventing this. Would prevent teams from holding cities hostage. Just look at the NFL and LA
    I get the concern, how how could you legislate against owners holding taxpayers hostage? As long as we are capitalist I am not sure you could legislate such a thing.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    Yes corporate welfare as much as I don't care for Bob Kraft he at least paid for his own stadium I can respect that about him.
    I respect that he did that after his public funded plans (some of which would have moved the team out of Massachusetts) failed...
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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    I respect that he did that after his public funded plans (some of which would have moved the team out of Massachusetts) failed...
    Still he did it anyways.

    Its not as if he relocated the team to another part of the country like various owners have through the years to cities who would pay for it. He could've done that he chose to keep them around the New England area(which includes areas other than MA)

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I get the concern, how how could you legislate against owners holding taxpayers hostage? As long as we are capitalist I am not sure you could legislate such a thing.
    Legally, you most certainly could. We're not an 'anything goes' capitalist society. You'd have issues with closing loopholes and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater but getting some limits would certainly be beneficial for taxpayers. One problem is this should be a state/local issue but the problem is the competition with other cities and states. No state wants to limit their ability to throw more goodies at their local sports teams to keep them happy, or not be able to wave a carrot at a neighboring states' sports team to entice them to move. State and local governments needs protections from themselves in this regard, and need some protections against what other states and cities can do so they don't have to worry what will happen if they don't continue to build bigger and bigger sports palaces for billionaire owners, knowing if they balk, the next city might just write the check AND include another yacht for the owner.
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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    Still he did it anyways.

    Its not as if he relocated the team to another part of the country like various owners have through the years to cities who would pay for it. He could've done that he chose to keep them around the New England area(which includes areas other than MA)
    He did it because he didn't really have any other choice. He did what was in his best interest, which is smart but it isn't commendable and he didn't do it for the taxpayers.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Legally, you most certainly could. We're not an 'anything goes' capitalist society. You'd have issues with closing loopholes and not throwing the baby out with the bathwater but getting some limits would certainly be beneficial for taxpayers. One problem is this should be a state/local issue but the problem is the competition with other cities and states. No state wants to limit their ability to throw more goodies at their local sports teams to keep them happy, or not be able to wave a carrot at a neighboring states' sports team to entice them to move. State and local governments needs protections from themselves in this regard, and need some protections against what other states and cities can do so they don't have to worry what will happen if they don't continue to build bigger and bigger sports palaces for billionaire owners, knowing if they balk, the next city might just write the check AND include another yacht for the owner.
    How on earth could you accomplish this? Unless an owner is bound by a contractual agreement, I can't see any way a city or state or bind an owner to keep a franchise in a specific location. South Carolina is a right to work state, therefore we get businesses moving to our state routinely. Would the state they left like to keep them? I am sure they would, but you can't just pass a law making it illegal for Boeing to move its operations to Charleston.

    Cities don't want to lose their teams and owners do not want to lose revenue streams and money. Leverage varies by location. This is just the way it is.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Natston View Post
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    He did it because he didn't really have any other choice. He did what was in his best interest, which is smart but it isn't commendable and he didn't do it for the taxpayers.
    He did have a choice he could've gone to a city that wanted an NFL team.

    Its not like he did what Clay Bennett did or Bob Irsay for that matter and relocate somewhere else because he didn't get what he wanted.

    He obviously wanted the team in the New England area so he did whatever it took to keep it there. Even if it meant he had to pay up which clearly wasn't what he wanted to do.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I get the concern, how how could you legislate against owners holding taxpayers hostage? As long as we are capitalist I am not sure you could legislate such a thing.
    The government has every right to regulate how the government spends its money.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    How on earth could you accomplish this? Unless an owner is bound by a contractual agreement, I can't see any way a city or state or bind an owner to keep a franchise in a specific location. South Carolina is a right to work state, therefore we get businesses moving to our state routinely. Would the state they left like to keep them? I am sure they would, but you can't just pass a law making it illegal for Boeing to move its operations to Charleston.

    Cities don't want to lose their teams and owners do not want to lose revenue streams and money. Leverage varies by location. This is just the way it is.
    Not really all you have to do is pass a law that cities and states can't spend money to construct stadiums.

    All of a sudden teams can't say things like "Well I guess we will just move to a city that wants us" in order to get them to build a new stadium.

    The sonics would still be in seattle for sure. Colts would still be in Baltimore also sadly.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    Not really all you have to do is pass a law that cities and states can't spend money to construct stadiums.
    Probably a violation of the 10th amendment, but after ACA, who knows.
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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Probably a violation of the 10th amendment, but after ACA, who knows.
    I would be more worried about the Supreme Court basically saying a corporation has rights like regular citizens, which probably would some how lead to them being able to kill any bill to curb the public contribution to these monster stadiums.

    Things are just going to get worse until cities do not stand up to these teams. Every team is going to want bigger and better and just become an arm race of stadiums.

    I am sure nothing will change because many fans cannot look past their fandom to see their state and city getting screwed, we are a corporate welfare country, and the pro leagues have deeper pockets and will probably just buy the politicians they need to kill whatever comes up.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by thewholefnshow31 View Post
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    I would be more worried about the Supreme Court basically saying a corporation has rights like regular citizens, which probably would some how lead to them being able to kill any bill to curb the public contribution to these monster stadiums.

    Things are just going to get worse until cities do not stand up to these teams. Every team is going to want bigger and better and just become an arm race of stadiums.

    I am sure nothing will change because many fans cannot look past their fandom to see their state and city getting screwed, we are a corporate welfare country, and the pro leagues have deeper pockets and will probably just buy the politicians they need to kill whatever comes up.
    The fact that corporations have rights isn't a factor hear. Nowhere do corporations have a right to the public coffers.

    The 10th ammendment thing is an issue but the 10th amendment has been losing strength since the Civil War.

    You could disguise it differently if there is a problem. No federal subsidies for any city or state government that uses public money to build a Stadium. Boom done.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by thewholefnshow31 View Post
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    I would be more worried about the Supreme Court basically saying a corporation has rights like regular citizens, which probably would some how lead to them being able to kill any bill to curb the public contribution to these monster stadiums.
    Corporations don't. The people that own the corporations do.

    Joew touched on it, but this really isn't any different than a state/local government giving companies tax breaks in order to re-locate to their area. If Indy isn't willing, there will probably be another city that is. So you either play the game, or be forced to sit on the sidelines, like Seattle.
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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Corporations don't. The people that own the corporations do.

    Joew touched on it, but this really isn't any different than a state/local government giving companies tax breaks in order to re-locate to their area. If Indy isn't willing, there will probably be another city that is. So you either play the game, or be forced to sit on the sidelines, like Seattle.
    Its one thing to give a company tax breaks to bring in jobs, its another thing to give them such ridiculous tax breaks that its a net loss for the city. So It is different in that regard.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Is it? PSE&E bring in a bunch of jobs. From security, to concession workers, to ushers. Not only does PS&E employee people, it also brings in revenue for the city for resturants, shopping, etc. I live an hour away from Indy, and the 90% time I spend money there is when we go to sport events.

    The city also gives PS&E money, because it allows them to hold the Big Ten tourney. LOS allows them to have the Superbowl, NCAA tourney every 5 years, countless conventions, etc.

    I guarantee Indy brings in more $$ than they give the Pacers/Colts.
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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Corporations don't. The people that own the corporations do.

    Joew touched on it, but this really isn't any different than a state/local government giving companies tax breaks in order to re-locate to their area. If Indy isn't willing, there will probably be another city that is. So you either play the game, or be forced to sit on the sidelines, like Seattle.
    Absolutely. Owners that move their teams are also gambling that the new location will be more advantageous to their interests. Sure you can pass laws which state that taxpayer money to fund stadiums is illegal, but you couldn't pass a law making an owner stay in a location.

    I am sure the board of governers in various sports could restrict an owner from moving, but that would set a bad precedent for their own mobility. Simply put, businessmen do not like to regulate other businessmen because the shoe could be on the other foot someday. Cities either play the game of taxing/spending on stadiums or risk losing their team. That stinks for some, but its just the way it is.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Is it? PSE&E bring in a bunch of jobs. From security, to concession workers, to ushers. Not only does PS&E employee people, it also brings in revenue for the city for resturants, shopping, etc. I live an hour away from Indy, and the 90% time I spend money there is when we go to sport events.

    The city also gives PS&E money, because it allows them to hold the Big Ten tourney. LOS allows them to have the Superbowl, NCAA tourney every 5 years, countless conventions, etc.

    I guarantee Indy brings in more $$ than they give the Pacers/Colts.
    You can guarantee it, doesn't make it true. Far to many studies are showing these stadium deals to be a net loss for the cities for it to be a guaranteed yes. And even if they do make more from the stadiums that doesn't mean its the best use of the money. Just because you make money from an investment doesn't mean its the best investment. You can make money from a T-Bill but there are better investments.

    Cities would be much better off giving jobs to teachers and fixing road/bridges.
    Last edited by Mad-Mad-Mario; 07-20-2015 at 05:00 PM.

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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Absolutely. Owners that move their teams are also gambling that the new location will be more advantageous to their interests. Sure you can pass laws which state that taxpayer money to fund stadiums is illegal, but you couldn't pass a law making an owner stay in a location.

    I am sure the board of governers in various sports could restrict an owner from moving, but that would set a bad precedent for their own mobility. Simply put, businessmen do not like to regulate other businessmen because the shoe could be on the other foot someday. Cities either play the game of taxing/spending on stadiums or risk losing their team. That stinks for some, but its just the way it is.
    Yeah it would be incredibly rare that an owner could move his team to a completely new area and be more successful than they are currently with an establish fan base. Sure if they suck they might have a few better years just because they are new but that will eventually wear off wherever they go.

  32. #24
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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    How on earth could you accomplish this? Unless an owner is bound by a contractual agreement, I can't see any way a city or state or bind an owner to keep a franchise in a specific location.
    I never said they could. I never said anything about cities forcing teams to stay. I was just complaining about the current climate for cities to outbid each other in an attempt to lure a team away from their home city to a new city. Complete with a shiny new sports stadium and an even greater deal than they already have. And then that lure becomes leverage for the owners to use in their current city.
    Unless it's stopped at a federal level, local governments can't just keep from getting involved in these bidding wars, corporate welfare, and giveaways of taxpayer money to billionaire team owners. And local governments are getting less and less in return. I mean we've already jumped the shark to where cities build these ever more expensive (and expansive) stadiums and now give away all of the profits and control of the venue for things that have no connection to the teams. Yet, willingly pay the operating expenses.

    Rare indeed will be the city (or state) that just says "No". So there will be no local or state level laws to put this corporate welfare genie back in the bottle. That's why it can only happen at the national level where the feds have nothing to gain by teams moving and can see taxpayer money being squandered on these stadium deals.

    I'm surprised local/state governments aren't working the backdoor to quietly push this issue nationally knowing that it's the only way to put the genie back in the bottle.
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    Default Re: John Oliver vs Tax Payer Funded Stadiums

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    You can guarantee it, doesn't make it true. Far to many studies are showing these stadium deals to be a net loss for the cities for it to be a guaranteed yes. And even if they do make more from the stadiums that doesn't mean its the best use of the money. Just because you make money from an investment doesn't mean its the best investment. You can make money from a T-Bill but there are better investments.

    Cities would be much better off giving jobs to teachers and fixing road/bridges.
    Sounds like you have a more principled objection to it than a numbers based one. Which considering I'm a fiscal conservative, I fully understand. But the cat is too far out of the bag to stuff it back in. I'm aware of some of the studies, but like this Forbes article I've noticed that they look at it from a tax revenue standpoint, as opposed to economic activity in the area.

    It is easily possible (and in fact quite likely) that a new stadium will produce more in related economic activity than the cost of any public financing (even if a government pays for all the costs). However, it doesn’t matter if businesses take in more money than taxpayers shelled out to build the stadium; what matters is whether the taxes collected from all that activity are more than the up-front taxpayer cost. A visitor to the Super Bowl might spend $500 on an airplane ticket, $2000 on his hotel, $300 on food, plus $500 on the ticket to the game. That sounds like a lot of economic activity for just one visitor. However, the plane ticket generates roughly zero money for local and state governments (there may be some airport taxes but they will go toward running the airport). The hotel stay probably produces $200-250 in tax revenue, the restaurant bills another $20, and the game ticket another $35. That means the over $3000 in spending really amounts to around $300 in tax revenue.
    I don't care how much the govt reaps in tax revenue, I care that the local businessman sees an uptick in his local business revenue as that's where jobs actually come from.




    And considering private charter schools routinely kick the crap out of our massively funded public school systems, I'm not even sure that is the best way to spend tax money.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right.” ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

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