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Thread: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    I have to be up very early in the a.m. so I am only going to hit the highlights or lowlights which is what they should be called.

    First off let me state this, Eddy Curry is bigger than David Harrison. I've never been able to see them lineup next to each other so I thought David was a little bigger. Not after tonight, Curry is quite a bit wider & thicker while David is a little taller.

    I still feel David is the better player but he didn't play all that great vs. Curry. On the other hand those who do not understand why some of us believe in Harrison need to look no further than Jerome James of the Knicks to know why we feel the way we do.

    James has been in the NBA longer, is taller & is every bit as thick & wide as David. However that is where it ends, David is hands down the better player in every aspect of the game.

    I don't want to pick on Saras & in fact I probably need to just leave it alone but I can't help it. The guy has got to quite trying the fancy no look pass for a dunk on the break when he has the open shot & then ends up blowing a 3 on 1 fast break. I about lost my mind when he did that. Other than that he was fine, nothing great but then again nobody on our team was great. But he has blown so many fast breaks this season it drives me insane.

    Fred Jones needs to refund the Pacers his paycheck for that game. That is all there is to say about that. He did nothing right.

    Pollard is about the only Pacer who played worth a crap & even he let Eddy Curry abuse him on the defensive end of the floor.

    *****************WARNING WILD SPECULATION AHEAD***************

    Has anyone else noticed lately how we are running more & more isolation plays. It doesn't matter who the player is, it could be Jax or Granger or whoever. But has anybody else noticed how our offensive rebounding has decreased & when you look at our spacing on the floor again we see one guy on one side of the rim with 4 other guys on the other side?

    I say all of that to say this. He is preparing you for Jermaines return. In other words what you saw work so well for 7 games is not the same you will see when J.O. returns. It's not the way it is now which can only lead to about one conclusion. J.O. is not the problem with the half court ISO's, it's Rick.

    I know one person who will be happy about this but I think the rest of us are sick to our stomach.

    ***********************END OF SPECULATION*****************


    Like I said I gotta go so this is going to be it.

    There was nothing good about this game, even Boomers dunks between the 3rd & 4th quarter were dedicated to a power pack member who just passed away. I'm pretty sure his name was David Allen Scott Jr. & for those who attended the games he was the one who flew higher than anybody & was far & away the best dunker (even better than Boomer) I don't know what happened to him btw.

    Let's just move past this & beat Houston.

    Last note, we still need a 10 day contract big man.

  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    I thought the player movement and crispness of the passing was less. Maybe that was the Knicks taking it away... or maybe it was us going away from it.

    Not to take anything away from the Knicks, but why can't the Pacers beat the crappy teams? A couple of times a year and it's a fluke... but this is a trend. I'm not sure I have an answer to that question so I'd be curious to hear some opinions on it.

    I'll add a prediction to the wild speculation (I've said this already but I doubt it was paid much attention... probably alot like now )

    This is Rick Carlisle's last season at the helm.

    I believe Bird was serious when he made his long ago comment about the effectiveness of a coach being only a 3 year window. I also think the turmoil we've endured the past few seasons ruined any chance of breaking that. It's not to say that Carlisle hasn't done a very good job considering the hand he has been dealt... It is to say the style of ball he wants this team to play isn't a good fit with the players or the fans... or management. There have been too many comments from Bird that just made it seem like he and Rick weren't on the same page. Maybe they were signals to Rick? It probably doesn't help seeing the team and fans immediately respond to a different style and have success with it.

    I have little to no doubt we will return to the ISO game when JO returns. We might even do it beforehand... Artest eventually went 'Artest'. There's no reason to think Carlisle won't go 'Carlisle' at some point.

    As for the game at hand... When Tinsley entered I understood it to be a chance to give the team a different look and maybe a shot of energy. Lord knows we needed it. But then I looked around the court at the team around Tinsley. There was nothing to make me think we had a team on the court that had any hope of a comeback.

    And Freddie.... Tonight he again was able to show us his trademarked move: Jump in the air with nowhere to go and no plan and throw the ball to the opposing the team. He has this move down. Don't they get kids to quit that stuff in HS... or Biddy Ball even?????

    I'm trying to think of something good to say about the game but it was a blowout loss to a bottom feeder team. There's nothing good about that.

    I will hope it was simply a motivated opponent catching the Pacers on an off night and move on to the next game. The Knicks vs the Pacers obviously means more to the lowly Knicks these days.

    Sad news indeed about the Power Pack member.

    -Bball
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    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  3. #3

    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Reverted back to the Standard Pacers! ISO play and lackadaisacal play against an inferior opponent. These guys should forfeit their salary tonight.

    Lets see, ball movement, balanced scoring, rebounding lanes, cuts to the basket for easy shots and teamwork lead to VICTORIES, yet we go back to the crap that loses to inferior opponents? Go figure.

    We lost this game in the first quarter when we should have had a 30-12 lead at the end of 1 period. We missed just about every shot we took and had too much isolation.

    If we in deed go back to that ISO BS, then I'm done as a fan. GO 1 on 5, throw up a bad shot while everyone stands and watches?!!!!!!!!!??? Great strategy....no rebounding lanes, nobody even attempting to get a rebound.

    Losing to the Knicks when they were good was like getting a root canal, but losing to that crappy bunch of misfits is like getting sent to purgatory.

    HOPEFULLY THIS WAS AN ABERRATION!
    Not feeling good about it though.

    Water

  4. #4
    Member CableKC's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Do you guys think that the "new offense" with a full roster of players would stand a better chance in the playoffs compared to the "ISO" type of offense that we have always run in previous years?

    I would like to believe that we can try something new with the full roster of players just to see can happen.....cuz we all know how well we did in the last couple of playoffs with the "old style" of offense.

    About Birds "way back when" comments about coaching being a 3 year window...I didn't know he said that. Was this a comment by Bird some time ago?

    Regardless of when he said this.....I wouldn't be surprised if this is Carlisle's last season. Bird is gonna likely rebuild the entire team from the ground up....and I wouldn't be surprised if he will not try to change Carlisle's mind if he does step up and resign.

    I won't complain if Carlisle stays....but won't complain if he decides to go. If it happens....here's hoping that Eric Musselman comes to Indy.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    I really have no idea what happened. I left to grab some dinner near the end of the third and the Pacers were down by two. When I returned, I saw that they were down by twenty... I just didn't bother to watch the rest.


  6. #6
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC
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    Do you guys think that the "new offense" with a full roster of players would stand a better chance in the playoffs compared to the "ISO" type of offense that we have always run in previous years?

    I would like to believe that we can try something new with the full roster of players just to see can happen.....cuz we all know how well we did in the last couple of playoffs with the "old style" of offense.

    About Birds "way back when" comments about coaching being a 3 year window...I didn't know he said that. Was this a comment by Bird some time ago?

    Regardless of when he said this.....I wouldn't be surprised if this is Carlisle's last season. Bird is gonna likely rebuild the entire team from the ground up....and I wouldn't be surprised if he will not try to change Carlisle's mind if he does step up and resign.

    I won't complain if Carlisle stays....but won't complain if he decides to go. If it happens....here's hoping that Eric Musselman comes to Indy.

    When Bird signed on as coach of the Pacers he signed for 3 years and said (paraphrasing) that a coach is only effective for 3 years and then players begin tuning him out. And then he stuck by it and bowed out after 3 years.

    Bird has recently talked about wanting to see the Pacers play a more Euro style of basketball. He's been doing a lot of scouting in Europe. He went to bat for Saras. There have been several comments that don't jive with what the Carlisle is historically known for. He's got his security blankets and I don't think he's going to give them up. I question if the players we have want to stand at the 3 point line another season and watch JO get most of the touches. If Bird wants a more Euro style of ball, how can anyone think Carlisle has a future here?

    Hmmm what Pacer coaches in the Walsh era have lasted past 3 years?

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    This is Rick Carlisle's last season at the helm.

    -Bball
    Could be. It seems obvious that this group plays better when moving the ball. In fact that is true of everyone in the NBA. I can see playing a lot of isolations if you have a Kobe, James, or Wade, but the Pacers haven't had a good isolation player in years.

    Someone needs to ask Rick on his show this Thursday why he persists in isolations when the team plays better when they move the ball.

  8. #8
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    With you all on the return to dominance of isoball. I thought it was also quite visible in the last game, too. Excellent point about how more ball and player movement creates better offensive rebounding opportunities. The only thing I would say about the NY loss is that we missed a lot of open looks. Not going to win consistently with 35% FG. That's no excuse for overall lethargic play though.

  9. #9
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    New York has a large number of quick, offensive minded players and
    last night they were on. I am tired of the Pacers having a bunch of
    plodders especially in the backcourt. This team needs to add some
    quickness. New York could turn into a dangerous team.


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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by owl
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    New York has a large number of quick, offensive minded players and
    last night they were on. I am tired of the Pacers having a bunch of
    plodders especially in the backcourt. This team needs to add some
    quickness. New York could turn into a dangerous team.


    owl
    Nuthin but plodders round these parts. Do we have one guy that could even qualify as truly fast? Quick? Maybe DG or Fred?

  11. #11
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Reason why the Pacers lose to bad teams so often: Pacers margin for error is very small, if they have a letdown of even 25% in their effort and intensity they can lose to anyone. Pacers don't have that one or two players who can bail them out, they need at least 7 or 8 guys all playing well.

    That is the reason.

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    The little of the game I saw presented something else - we stopped trying to do any kind of in-out game and just tried to get quick long-range bombs to fall.

    They didn't, and we didn't get the rebounds.
    BillS

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  13. #13

    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    I agree with UB. Tonight almost every player had an off-night. I wonder if it's just such an unlucky night, or this has something to do with coaching? (I didn't saw the game and cannot comment it).
    Also this is one of the rare cases when our bench was outplayed. The most stable weapon (which usually kills/outscores the oponents second unit) was empty tonight.
    I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

  14. #14

    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Reason why the Pacers lose to bad teams so often: Pacers margin for error is very small, if they have a letdown of even 25% in their effort and intensity they can lose to anyone.
    Very legit point. Let's face it, to win we have to maximize our talent on any given night.

    I also agree our style of play hasn't changed much. Jack has been encouraged to isolate consistently. Even Peja. I really haven't seen that much change in the offense and don't expect it when JO returns. I just hope they share and move the ball out of the isolations.

    Agreed the young man with the Power Pack was exceptionally talented; But he also appeared like an exceptionally decent young man. He was obviously very popular with both the fans and his peer. He had a special manner that made him stand out - You can tell that from the comments about him on this board. Very sad news.

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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    I noticed alot more ISO plays last night. I am certain we will return to ISO ball soon as Rick is a control freak. Which means our rebounding will go down the tubes again.

    I am starting to lose interest in this season knowing we will probably be an early casualty in the playoffs. Right there just does not seem to be light at the end of the tunnel.The only thing that peaks my interest is Danny & David's progress.

    AS far as Rick coming back next season IF he refuses to change then adios.

    I guess I will say it here I WAS wrong about David Harrison. I said a few months back that I thought he was nothing more than a career backup. Well obviously I was wrong. I don't mind eating crow on this one as it tastes pretty good in this situation.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    *****************WARNING WILD SPECULATION AHEAD***************

    Has anyone else noticed lately how we are running more & more isolation plays. It doesn't matter who the player is, it could be Jax or Granger or whoever. But has anybody else noticed how our offensive rebounding has decreased & when you look at our spacing on the floor again we see one guy on one side of the rim with 4 other guys on the other side?

    I say all of that to say this. He is preparing you for Jermaines return. In other words what you saw work so well for 7 games is not the same you will see when J.O. returns. It's not the way it is now which can only lead to about one conclusion. J.O. is not the problem with the half court ISO's, it's Rick.

    I know one person who will be happy about this but I think the rest of us are sick to our stomach.

    ***********************END OF SPECULATION*****************

    As much as I hate the ISO stuff, one thing to keep in mind is that to continue to play good defense and use alot of motion on offense will eventually catch up to the legs, especailly when we are playing the schedule we are. At some point with so many games you either have to sacrifice on "D" or run some ISO's to allow players to keep there legs fresh. I think Dallas is also feeling some of this right now to.

  17. #17
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    20 years from now when the best coaches in Pacers history are discussed, Rick Carlisle will be always mentioned as one of the very best. He'l be up there with Slick and Larry Brown.

    I just hope the next Pacers coach, is half as good as Rick

  18. #18
    Member Brian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    If anyone actually believes that we are gonna keep the "run and gun O" when JO comes back you are out of your mind.Rick wont do it.No matter how much better it would be.
    LoneGranger33 said
    Agreed. As the members of Guns and Roses once said, "every rose has its thorn".

  19. #19
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Hmmm what Pacer coaches in the Walsh era have lasted past 3 years?

    -Bball

    Brownie - four years and the fourth year was of course, "The season we do not discuss".

    Isiah Thomas. . Need I say more?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  20. #20
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Outlaw
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    I noticed alot more ISO plays last night. I am certain we will return to ISO ball soon as Rick is a control freak. Which means our rebounding will go down the tubes again.
    Rick is in control. For you to call him a freak for wanting to be in control is going too far. I'd much rather have a coach in control of his team than have one who can't or won't control his players.

    But whether his strategy is right or wrong is a separate question. If he is wrong, that doesn't make him a control freak. It merely means that what he thought would work, didn't.

    Also, consider that the Pacers weren't scrimmaging against air last night. Sure they were ONLY playing the Knicks, but they do have a fairly knowledgable coach who might have been successful in forcing the Pacers into a style that played to NY's advantage.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    You are equivocating on the phrase "in control". I would say that Rick has always liked to be in control of the game. I wouldn't say that Rick has always been in control of his players. Its also unclear why anyone should associate one type of control with the other (and looking at Phil Jackson would provide one with a seemingly effective counter example to doing so).

    I will say this though. If Rick has watched the team be successful with a new style of play and his only real justification for returning to an older, less effective, style of play when J.O. returns is that he (Rick) is more comfortable with that style, then that's a mark against Rick. I would imagine Carlisle has more of a justification for returning to that style (if he is indeed doing so), but how legitament that justification is is up for debate.

  22. #22
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    I am watching the FSN tape of the game, and I didn't realize Fred Jones sprained his right thumb in the first half and was listed as "questionable" going into half-time.

  23. #23
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Part of me really wants to see Larry hire Dennis Johnson, his second choice 3 years ago, just so everyone can see just how badly Rick needed to go.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  24. #24
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Part of me really wants to see Larry hire Dennis Johnson, his second choice 3 years ago, just so everyone can see just how badly Rick needed to go.


    DJ was the second choice three years ago? . Not disagreeing with you, but I don't remember that.


    Jay, Isiah was only here 3 years

  25. #25
    teY dennaB toN
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    Default Re: Very brief thoughts on the game vs. the Knicks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Jay, Isiah was only here 3 years

    It just felt like 300.

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