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Thread: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

  1. #26
    Banned Jermaniac's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Interesting that Tinsley and AJ both spent their time talking about the other guy. That speaks of really good chemistry.

    Sarunas spent his time talking about himself. But that's probably an improvement over him talking about other people.
    The guy should be gone after the season, people say Jack and Tins ruin chemistry but they are not the ones ****ting on their teammates everytime a mic is put in front of them. Like Jay said He doesnt like playing the 2, ohh thats nice. I wonder how he will like waving the towel next to Eddie Gill.

  2. #27

    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    I hope Saras turns out for two reasons. Firstly, I want every pacer to do well. Secondly, I want him to do well so that I can believe that Bird has some eye for talent. I'm more than worried about Bird's abilities in that department.

    As far as the comments I'd feel worse for Saras if he left out the talk.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  3. #28
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    I am boggled by the people who seem to have expected Saras to step into the NBA and be a superstar.

    I like the way he plays, I like his energy and attitude. However, he still has to learn how to adapt his playing style to the teammates he has on the floor. He has to learn how to communicate effectively. His liabilities in ball handling make it difficult for him to be the primary option bringing the ball up the floor. There is little question that he has hit something of the rookie wall, which isn't just a youth thing it's an internal rhythm of the season and (in many ways) a factor of Brain Overload at having to change too many things.

    The last few games I've seen, AJ has clearly played better than Saras. Will that continue through next year? When Tinsley comes back will he be effective in this offense or will he hurt himself again?

    Saras has been a huge help this year simply because of our constant injury situation at Point. While his supporters somehow believe he's been cheated out of a chance to show how he can be the Second Coming, the truth is that he is a highly competent but not consistently spectacular PG.

    Unlike some, I've never worried about a player wanting an increase in playing time, especially one projected at some point to become a starter somewhere. We also need to remember that the media chooses what to quote, and while trying to summarize an issue through quotes will usually pick the statements that support the theme they are trying to show in their article. The person in question usually actually said what was quoted, but other context and remarks can't be shown due to space.
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  4. #29

    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mushmouth
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    100%

    Saras has trouble getting the ball up the court against pressure, and is a significant dropoff defensively from Tinsley, nowhere near AJ. Perhaps he sees the court better than either, passes very well, and is a top flight shooter... but the first two negatives are too much to overcome for a NBA PG.
    I think he's getting the minutes he should be getting. Hopefully he'll still have some trade value this offseason, because he's not the answer at PG for the Pacers.
    I guess AJ doesn't have trouble getting the ball up the court. Well I guess he doesn't if you don't care that it takes him the full 8 seconds when pressured leaving 14 seconds by the time they actually set up. Anyone remember BOSTON?

  5. #30
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
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    I am boggled by the people who seem to have expected Saras to step into the NBA and be a superstar.

    I like the way he plays, I like his energy and attitude. However, he still has to learn how to adapt his playing style to the teammates he has on the floor. He has to learn how to communicate effectively. His liabilities in ball handling make it difficult for him to be the primary option bringing the ball up the floor. There is little question that he has hit something of the rookie wall, which isn't just a youth thing it's an internal rhythm of the season and (in many ways) a factor of Brain Overload at having to change too many things.

    The last few games I've seen, AJ has clearly played better than Saras. Will that continue through next year? When Tinsley comes back will he be effective in this offense or will he hurt himself again?

    Saras has been a huge help this year simply because of our constant injury situation at Point.

    Unlike some, I've never worried about a player wanting an increase in playing time, especially one projected at some point to become a starter somewhere. We also need to remember that the media chooses what to quote, and while trying to summarize an issue through quotes will usually pick the statements that support the theme they are trying to show in their article. The person in question usually actually said what was quoted, but other context and remarks can't be shown due to space.
    That was a great post and I agreed to every word, except:

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
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    While his supporters somehow believe he's been cheated out of a chance to show how he can be the Second Coming, the truth is that he is a highly competent but not consistently spectacular PG.
    How can say anything about his consistency when he didn't get the chance to 'own the keys' for even a few games?

    I know many say - you don't give the keys to a Euro-Rookie, and I can relate to that, but at the same time the same people say the guy can not hold the keys cause he's just not good enough.

    Saras ain't no ordinary Rookie. I'm sorry, but this his is career prime-time, and the only way for him to adjust to NBA game is to play a lot and have the keys. Sure - he will make mistakes, and Indy might suffer for a few games.

    Currently AJ is playing great ball, and I think Saras has missed the opportunity created by JT's injury.

    I don't think he can become a team leader this year. The current roster & coach makes me think it is highly improbable for next year too. I don't think he can afford years of learning.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by FrenchConnection
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    Cabbage - "I don't know why that idiot's never started me, and I don't care anymore. Just as long as I get my paycheck." This is not a slight on him, but rather on the situation in which the Pacers put him. He sounds really frustrated. I think that either he or RC has to go by the start of next season.

    On a side note, I think that it is rather funny that the team produced all those face shirts for a player that they ended up using as a third string PG. It is like being able to buy a Eddie Gill face shirt.

    p.s. Before any of our Lithuanian friends attack me (don't want to go there again...), I blame the team for not getting RC's input before signing the guy. This is a bad situation that would be much worse if Saras did not have enough class to not make a really big deal out of it.
    I like that attitude French.

    That means we did something here. We are the force.

    Yes, he seems flustrated, but he plays bad lately so its his fault.

  7. #32
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jermaniac
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    The guy should be gone after the season, people say Jack and Tins ruin chemistry but they are not the ones ****ting on their teammates everytime a mic is put in front of them. Like Jay said He doesnt like playing the 2, ohh thats nice. I wonder how he will like waving the towel next to Eddie Gill.
    Yes! Yes! Lets trade Jermaine!

    Its him you are talking about, right?

  8. #33
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Wink Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    And to that I can always say: As opposed to that defensive stud Jamaal Tinsley.

    to which I can always reply: compared to Saras, Tinsley IS a defensive stud.

  9. #34
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    \

    Don't see anything to roll eyes about. He's dead on right.

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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    AJ....ever the diplomat.

    Although all this is based off of how well Tinsley ( and the rest of the team ) adjusts to the new offense.....in the end ( whether it is the 2nd game that he comes back...or the start of the playoffs )...I think that Carlisle will "default" to his standard plan of starting his best PG....Tinsley. But given how well the offense runs with AJ running the point...I would hope that we can pretty much split it down the middle......maybe 26/22 with Tinsley starting and AJ backing up the PG spot. In this case...Sarunas would likely get 3rd string minuts at the PG and SG spot.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  11. #36
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Raskolnikov
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    I don't think it would've been the right decision long term. Dale would've taken Dave's PT. And Dave's a big part of the Pacers' future IMO. He needs to play.
    Yep, absolutely no point in being marginally better (this year) playing a 35(?)y/o center when you've got a rising young buck sitting there. ANd we all SAW last year that DD can't sustain those efforts over a bunch of games. He's playoff insurance, plain and simple.

  12. #37
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    We're damned no matter what. AJ and Saras can't play the 2 effectively, AJ plays his best as a starter, Tinsley is better than AJ and Saras and should start, and if we trade Saras in the offseason it's a risk if Tinsley or AJ get hurt next season.

    Keep all three and all we have to worry about is all of them making the most of the minutes they get. I see us having these three guys as a real advantage because they all play a different type of game and, can give us a different look according to the game situation. This type of thing matters in the playoffs.

    I also think Saras will get his shooting touch back and will become extremely important when J.O. comes back. Tinsley isn't the best shooter, and I think AJ is just on a streak, but he isn't that great of a shooter either. Playing Saras with Peja, SJax, and JO during the playoffs would create nightmares for the opposition because they would have hell to pay for doubleteaming JO.

    I'm all over the place with this issue. I just say as long as none of the point guards are demanding a trade and all are willing to deal with the situation thrown at them, then we make sure all three stay here.

  13. #38
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    I have to admit one thing. Something happened to him. May be its because he is getting married or because things dont open up for him for the first time in his life or may be it something else but....

    ...He never allowed himself to talk in this way. In his words was sarcastic criticism to his coach. I don't think it's professional and he never allowed it previously.

    One of things he said to european press... T.O. and dont be angry, the press naturally asks him questions about differences and want to show that Euroleague is better than NBA at least in something.... He said that players allow themselfs much more than in Europe. He was really suprised, talked about players (no names) not coming to the practice because they don't feel like it, not listening to the coach directions during the game etc.

    He was really a good boy before the NBA. Someone gave here an example and I saw it in person, how coach humiliated him by not letting him play in the important game while his falks flew to Tel-Aviv especially to see him play. And he said nothing and played well next time.

    I think all this Artest thing corrupted him.

    Hopefully something will happen that will shake him up. Because he will not get too far with this attitude.

    And saying this, I have also to say that he was never given the full chance he deserves and its Rick mistake. But I can afford myself to say that and he not.

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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lithfan
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    Yes! Yes! Lets trade Jermaine!

    Its him you are talking about, right?
    Now you've done it.......

    I might have to get my popcorn out here pretty soon.
    Just because you're offended, doesn't mean you're right. ― Ricky Gervais.

    What if someone from a school of business or management school were to ask, How did you do this? How did you get the Pacers turned around? Is there a general approach you've taken that can be summarized?

    Larry Bird: Yeah, patience.

  15. #40
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    So a guy who can't shoot can go on a 60% from THREE hot streak?

    And now I read he has a back injury? That's bound to have an impact on his game. Ask Scot Pollard what a bad back does. Or Baron Davis.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave
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    Basically, I don't expect one of these three back next year. All of them are too good to be third string pg's, and conversly too bad/too injury prone to be starters.
    I can probably guess how most of you will respond.......but unless how Tinsley this new offense is light-years ahead of and significantly better then then one that AJ or Sarunas runs.....then I think Tinsley should be moved this offseason. Its not that AJ or Sarunas is better then him......individually Tinsley is the best PG of the bunch. Its Tinsley's tendency to get injured and the subsequent ripple-effect that it has on team chemistry, the PG rotation and how the team / offense is run that I am concerned about.

    Just like not knowing when the Artest-time-bomb would go off.......Tinsley's tendency to get injured during the regular season is a "variable" that I want eliminated from the roster. I think it does affect team chemistry when it comes to establishing stability at one of the most important positions on the team....the starting PG spot.

    NOTE - I don't think that we can apply the same logic ( get rid of injury-prone players ) to JONeal despite his history of injuries. We don't have 2 other solid backup PFs that can easily step in to fill his shoes for extended periods of time.

    Although Sarunas defense maybe as pourous as a wet paper towel....in terms of how well he runs the point.....the only thing I do know is that AJ is a better fit for the Pacers then Sarunas is....but I really don't think that we have a very good idea of how well he can do due to the continual changes in the guard rotation. With the way that he has been used in the lineup ( from playing backup SG minutes to switching to the 2nd or 3rd PG option )...I can't make an honest assessment of his abilities. I don't want to give up on him until I am absolutely sure that he is not a good fit for the Pacers.

    I would much rather have an reliable AJ/Sarunas PG rotation then one with Tinsley where I have no idea when he will get injured next. Having Tinsley on the roster neccesitates the need for a very solid 3rd backup PG. At some point in the season, you know that our #2 and #3 PGs will likely be the #1 and #2 PGs in the rotation.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  17. #42
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by fifo
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    How can say anything about his consistency when he didn't get the chance to 'own the keys' for even a few games?

    I know many say - you don't give the keys to a Euro-Rookie, and I can relate to that, but at the same time the same people say the guy can not hold the keys cause he's just not good enough.

    Saras ain't no ordinary Rookie. I'm sorry, but this his is career prime-time, and the only way for him to adjust to NBA game is to play a lot and have the keys. Sure - he will make mistakes, and Indy might suffer for a few games.
    Well, this is exactly what I'm talking about regarding many of Saras' supporters.

    While I'm OK with Saras saying he'd like more playing time, I really can't believe the fans who think that if he isn't getting more consistent at 20 minutes a game he'll somehow suddenly start to shine at 30 or 40 or because he starts instead of coming off the bench. That's blindness to the realities of the game.

    If Saras wanted the keys he should have gone to a team with no point guard rather than one that had the position covered. A team with options who hasn't written off the season for rebuilding is not going to decide to start rookies when other options are working for them, especially when spot minutes don't show a huge upside for making that kind of decision.
    BillS

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  18. #43
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS
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    A team with options who hasn't written off the season for rebuilding is not going to decide to start rookies when other options are working for them, especially when spot minutes don't show a huge upside for making that kind of decision.
    Yep. Isn't that the way life works? You prove you can perform at this level, better than anyone else, and maybe we'll give you a promotion.

  19. #44

    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    A team with options who hasn't written off the season for rebuilding is not going to decide to start rookies when other options are working for them, especially when spot minutes don't show a huge upside for making that kind of decision.
    Right on BillS.

    If Saras is going to ever live up to expectations in the NBA, it is going to be a journey. I have excepted that and I am willing to wait 2-3 years. RC can't play Saras just to get him minutes and sacrifice the rest of the team.

  20. #45
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    One thing though, we do need a fourth pg. Or some change here because Eddie Gill just isn't good enough and Tins does get injured...Saras was a good signing for that exact reason. Without him we wouldn't have anything once AJ went out. He is competent. Not a star. But competent. I don't know if he'll improve but I'll say this: if he really was brilliant then he would show it in limited time. How does AJ go from not playing to slightly playing to stud in no time? How does DG become so effective that Carlisle just can't take him out anymore come 4th quarter? Is there anyone who doubts that a good player doesn't impact the game in even the shortest time on the court. It's not Carlisle fault that Saras doesn't play as much, it's Saras's fault. You play your way into the rotation. It's a fact. Saras doesn't deserve special treatment...

  21. #46
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    WHAT?

    EDDIE GILL IS THE ANSWER FOR OUR PG SITUATION
    As long as he gets around 30-40 minutes...as a backup, no. Then he only gets like 25-30 minutes and he's surprisingly ineffective...

  22. #47
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    You guys can laugh at me all you want but I have zero problem with Ed Gill.

    He is what he is & with a team like ours we need professionals who don't cause trouble, support the team & are ready whenever they are called on.

    In fact I'll go one better than that.

    If A.J. were the starter, Saras was not on the team & Tins were injured (in other words what we had last season) then I have no problem at all with Ed Gill being the backup with Freddy splitting time with him.

    Do I want Ed to start? No.

    Do I think he's a great player? No

    Do I even think he's a good player? Not really

    But he can get the ball up court, he can defend fairly well & he doesn't think he is more than he is.

    I think Ed Gill gets a bad rap on here.

  23. #48
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lithfan
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    I have to admit one thing. Something happened to him. May be its because he is getting married or because things dont open up for him for the first time in his life or may be it something else but....

    ...He never allowed himself to talk in this way. In his words was sarcastic criticism to his coach. I don't think it's professional and he never allowed it previously.

    One of things he said to european press... T.O. and dont be angry, the press naturally asks him questions about differences and want to show that Euroleague is better than NBA at least in something.... He said that players allow themselfs much more than in Europe. He was really suprised, talked about players (no names) not coming to the practice because they don't feel like it, not listening to the coach directions during the game etc.

    He was really a good boy before the NBA. Someone gave here an example and I saw it in person, how coach humiliated him by not letting him play in the important game while his falks flew to Tel-Aviv especially to see him play. And he said nothing and played well next time.

    I think all this Artest thing corrupted him.
    Hopefully something will happen that will shake him up. Because he will not get too far with this attitude.

    And saying this, I have also to say that he was never given the full chance he deserves and its Rick mistake. But I can afford myself to say that and he not.

    I think there is a lot more to this than what we want to believe.

    About 2-3 weeks ago I came to the conclusion that I was probably being to hard on Saras because let's be honest he came into one of the most bitter, volatile & poisonous atmosphere's that have ever existed.

    So when he say's players take to much for themselves I have to always take that into consideration.

    He only knows the NBA from our locker room & let's be honest our locker room sucked at the beginning of this season.

    So we have to give him a little bit of a break.

  24. #49
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan
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    If that post was in response to my [joke] of a post, I have a word word response for you: sarcasm.

    As for your post, I agree with you, except for Freddie running the "1". I never again in my life want to see Fred run the 1.
    The same goes for me. I don't think we're giving Gill a bad rap. In fact, I do agree he is an uber-pro but let's face it, the man isn't a backup on a championship contender. If that's where we wanna be then our backups need to be of AJ's caliber, that's all I'm saying. Also, Freddie at the point...no me gusta...

  25. #50
    Lithfan
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    Default Re: The Star} Who Is To Start At Point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    He only knows the NBA from our locker room & let's be honest our locker room sucked at the beginning of this season.

    So we have to give him a little bit of a break.
    The problem is that Saras has not enough talent so succeed with this attitude. He has to be very positive and motivated. He needs to be shaken and may be Tins return will do it.

    In any case someone will get hurt when Tins returns.

    The question is when and for how long he returns.

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