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More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

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  • #1

    More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

    Oh this is rich, if he even thinks for a min. that I'm going to buy that Walsh will now become a daredevil risk taker to build the team he has lost his mind.

    That is the entire falicy of this article he has written. In a short time span, very short, Joe Dumars took an also ran team to the top & has kept them there for several season.

    However it totally contridicts the entire way that the bunny has told us for years & years & years how you build a team. Massive risk taking trades were done by Dumars & it has paid off. Now to be fair risk does not always bring reward.



    By Mark Montieth
    mark.montieth@indystar.com
    The path the Detroit Pistons have taken to NBA supremacy might be depressing for Indiana Pacers fans, who not so long ago viewed their team as an equal force.

    But it offers hope, too.
    Through insight and fate, Pistons president Joe Dumars has assembled a team that is chasing history. The 39-6 record they take into tonight's game at Conseco Fieldhouse puts them in the same conversation with the 1995-96 Chicago Bulls team that finished an all-time best 72-10.
    The Bulls built their dynasty by drafting Michael Jordan and later making a clever draft-day deal for Scottie Pippen.
    The Pistons have done it differently. Their starting lineup features one player they drafted and four castoffs, all of whom came to Detroit with something to prove.
    "They've picked out the right guys who at that time were not star-quality players," Pacers CEO Donnie Walsh said. "But if you really look back on them, there was a lot of reason to believe they were going to be better than they were at that point. And they all have turned out."
    Early last season, it appeared Walsh had assembled a team in a similar manner that could compete with the Pistons. The Pacers, remember, dominated Detroit on that fateful night -- Nov. 19, 2004 -- at the Palace of Auburn Hills, when a historic brawl set off events that still reverberate through the franchise.
    But if a championship contender can be built through spare parts and a late first-round draft pick, it can be done again. It's simply a matter of finding the hidden talent, a not-so-simple challenge fraught with peril.
    Are future versions of Chauncey Billups, Richard Hamilton and Ben Wallace out there, waiting to be plucked?
    "They are," Walsh said. "They definitely are. Right now there are the same kind of players."
    Renovation begins with Ben

    When Dumars took over as the Pistons president in the summer of 2000, shortly after the Pacers had lost to the Los Angeles Lakers in the NBA Finals, he inherited a team in disarray. Detroit had finished 42-40 and lost in the first round of the playoffs. Worse, it was losing free agent Grant Hill to Orlando.
    Hill allowed the Pistons to work a sign-and-trade, however, and Dumars insisted that Ben Wallace be part of the deal.
    Wallace, undrafted out of college, had averaged 4.8 points and 8.2 rebounds for the Magic that season. He was the first building block.
    Further breakthroughs came in the summer of 2002, after Dumars' first team finished 32-50. He drafted Tayshaun Prince with the 23rd overall pick in June. He signed Billups in July after Minnesota's coach at the time, Flip Saunders -- who now coaches the Pistons -- couldn't guarantee Billups extensive playing time.
    "The real question at the time was whether Chauncey could be a true starting point guard," said Carlisle, who took over the Pacers after Dumars fired him to hire Larry Brown in 2003. "We thought he could."
    Then in September, Washington Wizards president Michael Jordan called Dumars and offered Richard Hamilton in a deal for Jerry Stackhouse. Carlisle recalls driving home from Stackhouse's charity golf outing on a Monday when Dumars called to tell him about the possible trade. Two days later, those players were the centerpieces of a six-player deal.
    Stackhouse, coming off his best season, was clearly better at the time, but Hamilton gave Detroit a younger, more team-oriented shooting guard and carried a smaller financial obligation.
    The Pistons found their missing piece in February 2004 when they obtained Rasheed Wallace in a three-team deal. Ironically, it was former Pacers forward and assistant general manager Billy Knight, now in charge of Atlanta's personnel, who helped broker the trade.
    Lucky and good

    The Pistons are a macho team, full of sharp angles and hard edges. They are the league's most competitive team on a nightly basis, and despite winning a title in 2004 and falling one game short last season, they still play like guys with something to prove.
    Above all else, they perform a successful chemistry experiment in every game they play.
    "Talent is obvious," Dumars told the Detroit News. "You can see talent a mile away. You've got to get beyond that. You are talking about cohesive basketball and there is no sport that takes more cohesion than basketball."
    Oh, and one more thing. Unlike the Pacers, the Pistons seem to never get hurt.
    "I'm envious," Walsh said. "These guys haven't had an injury in three years."
    Despite his obvious savvy, Dumars doesn't deny the value of good fortune. He once agreed to a multiplayer three-way trade for Philadelphia's Allen Iverson, but the 76ers' backup center, Matt Geiger, nullified the deal by refusing to drop the contract clause that would have raised his salary had he been traded.
    Dumars also offered a maximum contract to Chris Webber when the Detroit native was a free agent in 2001.
    Had he succeeded in either transaction, the Pistons probably would be just another team -- perhaps like the 76ers, for whom Iverson and Webber now play.
    Dumars also invested the No. 2 overall draft pick in Darko Milicic in 2003, passing on Carmelo Anthony, Chris Bosh and Dwyane Wade. While those three are stars, Milicic labors along with a 1.6-point career scoring average.
    "For me to sit here and make it sound like everything we did was part of some master plan would be insincere," Dumars told the News. "We got some breaks."
    It should be reassuring for the Pacers and other teams in the league to know you don't have to be perfect to build a championship team.
    Foresight and a little luck are enough.
    Tale of the tape

    Pistons president Joe Dumars has built a championship team in Detroit. But is it the best ever?

    Ben Wallace is one tough defender, but could he stop Wilt Chamberlain? Could the Pistons' team approach take


    NBA's best team built from scrap

    Richard Hamilton
    Acquired from Washington in September 2002 trade along with Bobby Simmons and Hubert Davis for Jerry Stackhouse, Brian Cardinal and Ratko Varda.

    Tayshaun Prince
    Lone draftee among starters, chosen with 23rd pick in June 2002. Busts such as Dajuan Wagner and Marcus Haislip went well ahead of him.

    Chauncey Billups
    He's an MVP candidate now. But he played for four teams in five seasons before signing with the Pistons as a free agent in July 2002.

    Rasheed Wallace
    Acquired in trade-deadline deal in February 2004 from Atlanta. Pistons also got Mike James for Chucky Atkins, Lindsey Hunter and 2004 draft pick.

    Ben Wallace
    Not drafted out of college. Then-four-year veteran acquired from Orlando along with Chucky Atkins in August 2000 after free agent Grant Hill bailed on Pistons.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13
    Tags: None
  • #2
    Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

    That seems more like a love and rays of sunshine for Joe Dumars piece than one for Donnie Walsh........
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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    • #3
      Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

      [QUOTE=Peck]Oh this is rich, if he even thinks for a min. that I'm going to buy that Walsh will now become a daredevil risk taker to build the team he has lost his mind.

      That is the entire falicy of this article he has written. In a short time span, very short, Joe Dumars took an also ran team to the top & has kept them there for several season.

      However it totally contridicts the entire way that the bunny has told us for years & years & years how you build a team. Massive risk taking trades were done by Dumars & it has paid off. Now to be fair risk does not always bring reward.

      Dang Peck, this article doesn't have to do with Walsh taking risks or the way he builds a team. If anything it points out that Walsh thinks Durmars has been lucky because he hasn't had any injuries. Why would Walsh change the way he does things if he thinks Durmars has been lucky?

      Comment

      • #4
        Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

        Originally posted by Peck
        Oh this is rich, if he even thinks for a min. that I'm going to buy that Walsh will now become a daredevil risk taker to build the team he has lost his mind.
        I don't think Montieth is the one who's lost his mind here.

        Comment

        • #5
          Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

          Peck, I think you are way way off base here. Dumars has been lucky. Dumars himself says that he wanted Iverson and Webber, and Dumars made a huge blunder in his really high draft pick.

          I hardly consider trading for Sheed a gamble, considering who they gave up.

          Grant Hill decided to leave, otherwise the Pistons don't acquire Ben Wallace.

          Billups was a free agent signing, no gamble there.

          Prince was a very good draft pick, but I'd put Walsh's 20 (players taken in the 20's) something draft picks up against Dumars anyday.

          Trading Stack for Rip wasn't a huge gamble. Stack was good and talented, but not the best team player. A lot of people thought the Wizards got the better of that deal at the time but I didn't, I remember posting that it was a good deal for the Pistons.

          So before Kstat gets on here and rips me a new one, let me say Joe has done a great job, the proof is in the record, but he has been a little lucky, and a little good and smart.

          But Peck, I think you are way off base here. I don't see one massive risk taking move by Dumars anywhere.

          Comment

          • #6
            Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

            The risk that Dumars took was getting the team below the cap so he had room to manuver.

            The Ben Wallace acquisition was FORCED by Hill's desire to sign in Orlando.

            Chauncey was a smart free agent signing made easier by Dumars apt manage of the cap. So was the trade for Ben Wallace who would never have been a Piston if Dumars hadn't accumulated all those expiring contracts he had to trade to the Hawks for Sheed.

            The Stackhouse trade was a cap trade for the Pistons as much as anything.

            If Walsh has anything to learn from Dumars it's financial management in the modern NBA luxury tax world.

            Comment

            • #7
              Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

              Originally posted by sixthman
              The Ben Wallace acquisition was FORCED by Hill's desire to sign in Orlando.
              He also had the foresight to specifically target Wallce, instead of bigger names like Bo outlaw and Darrel Armstrong....

              The Stackhouse trade was a cap trade for the Pistons as much as anything.
              That couldn't be further from the truth.

              Rip's deal expired the same year as Stackhouse's, and he's making more money right now to boot.

              Stack was traded because he was a horrible playoff performer, and Rip was a much better fit, plain and simple.

              It came off as a cap trade at the time because Stack was a much higher-profile player, but very few Pistons fans would say the Pistons didnt make a good deal, even at the time.

              It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

              Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
              Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
              NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

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              • #8
                Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

                Originally posted by Unclebuck
                But Peck, I think you are way off base here. I don't see one massive risk taking move by Dumars anywhere.
                I agree with UncleBuck.

                I don't see anything particularly risky, such as trading an all-star named Dale for a unknown youngster named Jermaine (big hit) or a solid veteran named Antonio for a guy named Jonathan who had a good high school all-star game (big miss).

                Walsh isn't as risk-averse as you claim, and Dumars is not the riverboat gambler.

                The thing that they do differ greatly in is their patience with coaches.
                The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!).

                Comment

                • #9
                  Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

                  Originally posted by pacertom
                  The thing that they do differ greatly in is their patience with coaches.
                  Or at least their patience with Carlisle...

                  There's another big difference, and to me it's the biggest one.

                  Dumars doesn't try to stockpile talent. He tries to make it fit together.
                  This space for rent.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

                    Originally posted by Anthem
                    Or at least their patience with Carlisle...

                    There's another big difference, and to me it's the biggest one.

                    Dumars doesn't try to stockpile talent. He tries to make it fit together.

                    Thank you. That was the perfect answer.

                    As to the rest of you, well it's been a good long while since I've drawn the ire of the forum.

                    If nothing else I've drawn Uncle Buck out of his shell.

                    Anyway needless to say I disagree with all of you. Call me nuts if you want but I've read the bunny long enough to know that this was another "have faith in Donnie" article.

                    I notice the Walsh Warriors were the first to come to the rescue on here as well.


                    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

                      Peck, if you're so adamant about this, pick out some quotes... where in this article does Monteith claim that Walsh is going to be a daredevil risk-taker?

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

                        Originally posted by Anthem
                        There's another big difference, and to me it's the biggest one.

                        Dumars doesn't try to stockpile talent. He tries to make it fit together.
                        Anthem has nailed it.... I. totally. agree. with. Anthem.

                        You can add that he doesn't let things fester and keeps things fresh. He does minor deals along the way too. And it appears he works the phones, not answers the phone.

                        -Bball
                        Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                        ------

                        "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                        -John Wooden

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                        • #13
                          Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

                          Excellent summary.

                          When have we been most succesful?

                          With coaches like Brownie and Rick that knew exactly what they wanted from the team so they took Donnie's various parts and made them click.
                          Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                          Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                          Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                          Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                          And life itself, rushing over me
                          Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                          Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

                            Didn't DW do a good job of transforming the 1993 team into the 1994 team with a number of key trades and aquisitions

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              Re: More love & rays of sunshine from Montieth towards Walsh....

                              Peck without more of an explantion I have to agree with the flock on this one. The article is about Joe Dumars, not Donnie Walsh.

                              Comment

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