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Thread: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Ok, let's start this early.

    I'm tempted to say Kobe breaks Wilts record tonight against us but I'll try & not be to pessimistic.

    Put me down for 45 points. What do you guys think?

    I'm down & I won't even try & hide it.

    It's not because we're losing, I can live with that. It's not even how we are losing, because the last two games at least I feel as though the team has tried to compete.

    No, what I'm down about is that I don't see our team haveing any form of direction or any sense of what kind of team this is.

    I have nothing against Peja at all. But I just don't see how he fits into the style of play that goes on in the East. In E.C. playoff basketball it gets down to hand to hand grind it out combat in the paint & I just wonder how he will do in that system.

    Ok, let's not blame him for a min. let me ask it this way, how will his team mates help him in that style of game?

    They keep saying compare him to Reggie, fine, but we would set 2-3 screens for Reggie & he would still run off of a pick to get his shot. Our team does not have the fundamental skills to do this.

    I'm not blaming Peja btw I am saying right now at the top, whoever that is, our team is not balanced & has not been for years.

    I am scared people because of something someone (forgive me I don't remember who) else said in another post. That is that we do not have the tools to trade with other than players we wouldn't want to give up.

    Jamaal, love him or hate him, has about zero tradeability because of his injurys.

    Cro's contract.

    Jackson could be packaged with someone but his attitude is well known so you are not going to get back a young prodigy like some of you would like.

    Fred Jones has a moderate trade value. I doubt you could even get a draft pick for him at the moment.

    Foster could still bring in something but not as much as he could have a year or two ago because of his back.

    A.J. is a good role player with to big of a contract. Like Jax he could be used in a package.

    Peja, Saras, Pollard can all be free agents after this season.

    Ed Gill, please

    Jermaine O'Neal. You are not going to get anything for him other than as a massive package for Garnett & that is only if they will trade him. He makes to much money for anybody other than another max player or a team below the cap who is willing to give up some young talent & I don't see them lining up. Not to mention his injury's.

    David Harrison. Sad to say what are you really going to get from him? Would it be better than what he could be? I don't know the answer to this btw. We need a real center in the worst of ways & right now I'd say David is a little behind where I thought he would be.

    This leaves us Danny Granger. Untouchable or he better damn well be unless a superstar comes rolling in & he has to be used to get him & even then I would have to think about it.

    What makes it even worse is that the East is so lousy that we will not finish low enough to be a true lottery team.

    This was the quandry of the late 80's early 90's Pacers teams. We would never finish high enough to get a great player in the draft. We would get 4-5 good players over that time frame but no great player. Thus leaving you mediocre.

    The worst thing in the world is mediocrity. I'm not kidding, this is poison & something I had hoped we wouldn't see again for years.

    Maybe I should just scrap this whole post because it is more negative than I really want to be.

    Let me say it again, I am NOT upset at the current team or the way they are playing. I just am not happy & honestly have no confidence in TPTB to set a differant direction for this team.

    Let me move on.

    Can we have an honest talk about Saras without it turning into a European vs American style of basketball argument?

    From what I've seen from him this season I think he's pretty good. He is a great passer, has a great sense of where people are on the floor & can have a lazer like shot from beyond the arc. His defense is not the worst thing I've ever seen although he will never be confused with Gary Payton.

    But here is the problem. I don't see him as any kind of special player. Now that is not a slam btw, it's just an observation.

    Yes we play a horrid style for him, yes our team has been a dysfuntional mess, yes Rick Carlisle has probably screwed him over a time or two.

    But at the end of the day don't special players over come that stuff? I mean when he came over they were calling him the European Michael Jordan. That's not a fair analogy for anybody to over come btw, but I just don't see it. I don't even see him as anything more than a good point guard.

    Is that a bad thing btw? I don't think so, however I think the Pacers were expecting a little more. Now in fairness to him, this team is a mess so to expect anything from anybody is not fair really.

    Again could we please not turn this into a style of play debate, please.

    Even before he went down with the head injury I was asking "what the hell is wrong with Croshere"?

    This guy has not played a good game for almost 2 weeks. Has he hit a wall? If he has, how is this possible? The guy is a pro & has been one for almost 10 years his body should be conditioned for this even if he was used to being a backup.

    He has played like a zombie just hangin out at the 3 point line for awhile now. Is he really p!ssed that he was rumored to be moved with Ron?

    I hate Brendan Haywood. Every d@mn time we play that guy he rips us like he is some form of an all-star. I wouldn't feel bad if he did this to everybody but every other time I see the guy he sucks.

    The Diamond one & myself were talking after the game as I was pointing out to him how the Pacers tv announcers (studio for the most part) were in full "let's look on the bright side" mode. Patz was talking about the great play of Scot Pollard when I began lecturing him on how bad I hate that & hated it back in the 80's.

    I was even telling him how much I missed Satan in the studio to tell me about the lack of effort.

    But then he reminded me, they weren't griping at the Pacers for lack of effort because they were playing to thier expectations.

    In other words our core players right now (A.J., Jax, Peja, Cro & Hulk) just aren't really that good. They aren't expected to win that many games anymore.

    This depressed me.

    It depressed me because he was right. The truth is, talent wise, we are worse than any other team in the east that is in the playoffs right now & I fully believe that the Bulls will pass us by.

    What is sad is that right now I just don't know how we get out of this one.

    I'm sorry guys, I don't mean to be so down but right now I just don't see a bright future for us.

  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    The worst thing in the world is mediocrity. I'm not kidding, this is poison & something I had hoped we wouldn't see again for years.
    Well, considering our record over the past few games I think maybe your fears can be laid to rest. We're staring up at mediocre right now.



    That said, I fear that what will ultimately be done to 'fix' the team will land us squarely in mediocrity and it is there we'll wallow far too long as we hear the words "patience" and "you don't make trades for the sake of trades" over and over and over and over again.... We'll make a few steps forward from where we are and then wait. Then let something fester and slip. Then wait a while and address that finally. Then wait some more.

    But right now, just becoming a mediocre team would be an improvement.

    Explain to me again why we needed to start breaking up the team in 99? What was that fear again? Was it that we'd maybe get another Finals crack or two at LA but with no real shot to beat the mighty Shaq and then we'd fade away and become like the Celtics or some other team in their post 'contender era'?

    And this is better, how?

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But here is the problem. I don't see him as any kind of special player. Now that is not a slam btw, it's just an observation.
    I've never heard anyone say hes a great player. His rep is he's a winner, and he leads. Right now he's not the leader because Rick is using him as a backup.

    One thing I saw tonight that I didn't like is twice Dan was isolated and he looked like JO or Jax holding the ball. That's a habit I DO NOT want him picking up!

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    Sure is. lenin_fresh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    I stopped watching the Pacers for a couple of years after the 1999 team was broken up because I was so angry about the Dale Davis trade (I was 15, what do you expect?). Anyway, I'm feeling a lot of the same feelings about this team, I wont stop watching this time, but I'm definately disappointed in how this season is turning out. I also wouldn't mind seeing the old court come back, and maybe the pinstripe jerseys.

    I guess I'm another one of the "We need to rebuild" people.

  5. #5
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Explain to me again why we needed to start breaking up the team in 99? What was that fear again? Was it that we'd maybe get another Finals crack or two at LA but with no real shot to beat the mighty Shaq and then we'd fade away and become like the Celtics or some other team in their post 'contender era'?

    And this is better, how?

    -Bball
    Come on Bball, I agree with you on your fears for this team and what will happen, but I'm tired of hearing about the past! Everyone's heard it, everyone's taken sides, enough already!

    Please!

  6. #6

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Great post, and very interesting to read as I have no possibility to see enough of Pacers games to have a strong opinion about every Pacers player, particularly those playing 15 minutes or less.

    But from what I have seen, I just don't think that overall assesment should be so negative right now. They have at least fixed the "giving up" thing. Now they just need to decide on the changes with the playing system. It's too soon. I don't think Carlisle had nearly enough practice time to decide where to put Peja. Thus he needs some of that time on court.

    As for Saras - the man is very emotional and never was on a team below .500. He must be in depression mood now or smth

    PS: I wouldn't be surprised if Chicago gets in front of Pacers, at least for some time. They are looking really good right now and have beaten Dallas tonight.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    No, I think I just believed it too soon - they haven't beaten Dallas

  8. #8
    Lithfan
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    But what are you expecting from your team when four best players (Tinsley, O'neal, Artest, Forster) are not playing? When there is such Artest problem? How would Pistons do if Billups and both Wallaces were injured and Prince demanded a trade?
    They would broke-up and thats what happening to Indiana right now.
    I think that that Indiana is doing better than any team in this situation. Because we are deep...

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Regarding Austin, has his sluggish play coincided with the first concussion he got?

    Moving on, no things are not bright and cheery in Pacerland right now, but would you have said these things if we'd hit about 6 more shots last night and won?

    I think collectively Pacers fans move with the wind too much. We just added a new player to the mix. We're missing two of our best players. Cro is a zombie. We're adding new plays in January. It's completely understandable that things are a mess right now. But they do not look to be un-fixable.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Quote Originally Posted by Lithfan
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    But what are you expecting from your team when four best players (Tinsley, O'neal, Artest, Forster) are not playing? When there is such Artest problem? How would Pistons do if Billups and both Wallaces were injured and Prince demanded a trade?
    They would broke-up and thats what happening to Indiana right now.
    I think that that Indiana is doing better than any team in this situation. Because we are deep...
    Artest is not a Pacer so I would not mention the fact that he's "out" as the issue now. We got a player for him, and he's here now.

    I forgot to mention Foster being out too in my last post. He's a significant loss too. So yeah, when you add all of the factors I listed above with the facct that all of these pieces are missing, is it any shock we're struggling in mediocrity? It shouldn't be. Take away Foster-level big man from another team, and two of their 3 best players away, including their star player, and see how well they do. This should not surprise anybody. Nor should it suggest this is what this team would be like when these things are addressed.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Ok, let's start this early.

    I'm tempted to say Kobe breaks Wilts record tonight against us but I'll try & not be to pessimistic.

    Put me down for 45 points. What do you guys think?
    Well, he got to rest against us so ...

    The Pacers are in a world of hurt right now without JO. I just don't see how you survive that this year. Your scorers will be SJax and Peja. Harrison can't stay on the floor enough to give you anything from the post.

    But look at the bright side - you could be Knick fans!
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  12. #12
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    The main problem as I see it is that we have at least 2 "key"players out and trying to insert a new key player into the lineup.
    Because we had these problems for 2 years now, starting last season if you don't count the ECF loss the year before, which I don't because of the nature of an ECF, but 2 years ago we dealt with some injuries, like very team has them, however due to the brawl, we had personelle problems as in not enough players on the floor, so we rushed players that were injured back, with as a result aggrevation of the injury and/or creating other nagging injuries due to that, so much that players are now considered injury prone by fans, while they are simply not.
    Tinsley last year: foot injury, mis-diagnosed, rushed back, aggrevated, gone.
    JO shoulder, playing at 60% in the playoffs, needing the full summer to recover, not fully ready yet for start of season.
    Jeff, so badly abused last year in forcing him back that he needed new surgery, trying to do the good thing by keeping him out this year, but ......

    Then Ron happened (again), so there we were, we needed the other starting 4 on the floor to keep things up, jamaal rushed back (with no power whatsoever in his shooting arm); result injury aggrevation
    Jo tweaks ankle, rushed back; result Groin Tear.
    Jeff rushed back, result; back spasms and tweaks.

    If we could just accept the time needed to recover for these players and get them back when really ready and healthy, we would be a very good team at the other end of the waiting period.

    JO out is a great loss. obviously on all parts of the floor, but not in the least on defense.
    Jamaal out kills the offense, with all due respect to AJ and Saras, neither of them is a starting caliber PG in this league, hold the fort guys be patient, the starter will come back., let's just hope they don't rush him again, te main problem being the willingness of those guys to do the forced return with all risks involved.

    Let's relax, use the time at hand to play Danny and Hulk, get them used to playing, and we most likely will be able to go on enough of a tear in the latter stage of the season to make the playoffs in place 6 or 7, neither being that bad seeding wise as we would avoid the Pistons till the ECF 6 would be nice for that

    There is no knowing what this team is capable of, we haven't seen them on the floor together for the better part of 2 years.
    Patience my learned friends, we will get there.

    And yes; Tinsley is way more important to this team then anyone of you gives him credit for and the injuries he had are really no indication whatsoever that he is injury prone.
    In fact there are only 2 injuries over the lat 2 seasons, which happen to be the mis-diagnosed foot and the current biceps one, which because of the rush back has caused other problems.

    Give it time, we will get there.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  13. #13

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    This is why I don't do recaps. I just don't care enough to write something like that. I'll leave it to Peck only in the future.

  14. #14
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Remember my thread of a couple weeks back? "Welcome to the 80's"? This is exactly what I was hinting at.....losing and mediocrity. Your analysis of the tradeable players is spot on, unfortunately. Teams might be willing to take a chance on trading for one of our guys as long as we are winning, but put a few losses around them and they become untradeable.

    This is what I always thought of as the Pistons of the Lanier era. One Great player surrounded by enough to make them mediocre, until they got lucky enough to draft Zeke.

    Now, having said all that, we do not know the grand scheme of things. Is there some sort of "Master Plan" or is it "throw the spaghetti on the wall and see what sticks"?

    PEck...it appears to me that the Pistons have gone to more of a Spurs type game, isn't it possible that that is where we're headed too? And if so, wouldn't Peja fit better then? That is not to say tho that the Pistons won't revert to old form come the PO's. But they do have a new coach who really isn't that "aware" of the old form and being a West conf. guy he may not use the pound it in ball then. So, are we working toward that style ourselves and are merely hampered by all of the injuries? Remember too, our guys WILL be back NEXT year, so it isn't like we'd be mired in the mud with this same group year after year.
    JO, TIns, Jeff, and Jax have shown the ability to wins some games. So don't expect us to be failures from the start next season.

    Come over to the sunshine Peck, I'm sure I've got an extra pair of rose-colored sunglasses somewhere.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    Remember too, our guys WILL be back NEXT year, so it isn't like we'd be mired in the mud with this same group year after year.
    If they're not injured next year.

  16. #16
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Could we please do something, please, this is really not too much to ask. Stop referring back to 2000, that was 6 years ago. (even if we did "keep the team together" it wouldn't be together now anyway) SO PLEASE DROP IT NOW.

    I lost my train of thought

  17. #17
    Member RWB's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    I can see why you're down Peck, but as others have posted we have too many guys down right now to think this is the look the team planned on being.

    One thing that has been brought up by many members and really disturbs me is the proper training of David Harrison. I've seen this on short tv bytes many times and I wonder if this is how David is being schooled? I love Chuck Person and how he's always considered himself to be a PAcer, but when did he become a low post teacher? Next time you see a clip on practice, look whos working with Harrision. Chuck was shooter, I know he's big boned now but how in the world can the P's think he's going to teach Harrison how to play big?

    I think UB mentioned it before, we need someone like Tree Rollins back.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

  18. #18
    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Peck - I have reached many of your same conclussions. Without rehashing them - let's look back at 94 and see what broke us out of the 41-41 mold.

    1) A new, great coach in LB
    2) A steady PG in Workman
    3) And we got lucky with Antonio - a second round pick who had spent a year or two in Europe

    I really think major changes are coming - with the coaching staff, personnel, etc.... so I am beyond getting angry. Is it depressing... sure? But less so every day.
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

  19. #19

    Default I guess I can't see the forest for all the trees.

    because I do not understand what TPTB big picture looks like. We have aquired Dano, Saunas and Peja in the last year. I think DG is a very special player that could excel in almost any system you put him in, but do Sarunas
    and Peja fit with Rick's system? Seems to me it is the old square peg, round hole thing.
    If TPTB want Rick to continue coaching next year and beyond, wouldn't you start finally surrounding him with the type of players that can
    excel in Rick's system? Maybe Rick's system is so complex that Sarunas and Peja really do fit, but Rick, Donnie and LB are the only ones who can see it.
    Maybe next year, it will all become clear and I will have on of those moments where I go...Ah! Ha! I get it, yes TPTB are brilliant.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen
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    If they're not injured next year.
    Yeah - not to hijack a thread but I have a new answer whenever someone posts, "Brad Miller being injured at some point in the season is inevitable."

    Response, "Just like JO."
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

  21. #21

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Could we please do something, please, this is really not too much to ask. Stop referring back to 2000, that was 6 years ago. (even if we did "keep the team together" it wouldn't be together now anyway) SO PLEASE DROP IT NOW.

    I lost my train of thought
    While we're requesting things of people (and my request has nothing to do with this particular thread), can people just drop the word "hater" from their forum vocabulary? Your post automatically drops into the negative IQ range if you try to use it in any manner. Except to criticize its use.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    Yeah - not to hijack a thread but I have a new answer whenever someone posts, "Brad Miller being injured at some point in the season is inevitable."

    Response, "Just like JO."
    Or, "Just like (Insert Pacers player making more than 5 million a year here)"

  23. #23
    Long time fan diamonddave00's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    As I watched last night I was quite impressed by the fact that Peja went inside so much, he shot 10 free throws not bad for a soft 3point shooter as most see him. He cut well without the ball , I thought he played well for his first game. His line was much like a Reggie Miller line 10fga's 17 points.

    Danny Granger continues to show that he has the makings of a very good nba player with a bright future.

    Hopefully Stephen Jackson , will be a little more into the games from here on out.

    Sarunas lacks great athletic ability but he plays every night with heart.

    Fred needs to stay on the bench as this team is currently made up his offense is needed with the 2nd unit (all 3 or 4 guys that make it up).

    Scot Pollard gave good effort 7 points , 12 boards is outstanding for him. If Harrison could just finish stronger inside his confidence would improve.

    Austin , I'm not sure if its concussions or what but he has looked lifeless the majority of the games of late.

    Jeff Foster it appears is never going to be healthy all season, Anthony Johnson is what he is a 15-18 minute a night backup point guard.

    Hopefully the revised 4-6 weeks possibility of Jermaine's return is closer to 4 weeks, the Pacers need him inside , even if its just to block shots and board (not even considering his 22 ppg). Jamaal Tinsley -will he ever be healthy?

    Even the most optimistic Pacer fan has to be seriously questioning if this bunch can even make the playoffs. But a weak draft is no incentive to miss the playoffs , I'd rather make the playoffs and pick 21st than miss and pick 15 the talent in the draft has no real can't misses even in the top 5.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Peck: you said that Saras can be a free agent after this season. Are you sure, and if yes, what exactly Saras's contract looks like (does he have player option for the two last years of the contract, has the team any option, etc)?

    I was rather sure that he has a 3-year 12 mln. contract without either team nor player options (4 mln each year) ...

  25. #25

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while watching us once again lose to the Wizards....

    Saras is locked in for 3 years at 4 mil/year, no team or player options.

    http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/indiana.htm

    I think we do need to give him enough of a chance this year to decide if he should stay during the trades Larry and Donnie make to restructure the team.

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