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Thread: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Hey I have been away from a computer since Friday afternoon, but I did not miss one minute of the Pacers v Pistons game today, and I have a lot to say about this game.

    First let me say I have read every post you all have written about the game today, but I wanted to start a new thread anyway.

    I said a few weeks ago the Pistons are the best defensive team I had seen since the Bulls of the 90's and I still believe that. Larry Brown must be in heaven, this is his type of team. He loves a team that can pressure the basketball. And the Pistons certainly can. The most amazing thing to me is that their second unit in some ways is better at pressuring the ball.

    The Pistons are a great defensive team. When describing great defensive teams people often say, "they don't let you get a good shot" The Pistons are better than that, they don't let you make a decent pass.

    There are two ways to beat the Pistons pressure defense.

    1) when is is one-on-one pressure, the only way to beat it is with dribble penetration. There is no way to make a decent pass against that type of pressure. That is why Artest and Tinsley are so important against the Pistons.

    2) Now when they Pistons trap the ball either at midcourt or near the sidelines, the Pacers must anticipate the trap and pass the ball quickly, and for goodness sake keep the ball in the middle of the court. We all know that Brown always drags the big guy to the ball handler near halfcourt. When the Pacers have their big guy throw the ball in bounds the big guy defending traps the ball handler, easy way to prevent that is have Artest or Reggie throw the ball in.


    Now to todays game.

    Beating the Pistons defense is not about calling a certain set play, the Pacers needed to just make instinctive basketball plays, the Pistons take you out of your set plays, so you need a point guard or someone who can take the ball and just make basektball plays. Pacers only have really two guys who can do that Artest and Tinsley. When Artest got into foul trouble the Pacers were in big trouble and without Tinsley it was bad news.


    Let me address Richard Hamilton. Some of you are blaming Reggie. Well Freddie did not do any better, and Artest can't guard him either. Hamilton is a different type of offensive player. He is like Reggie in that he moves without the ball and Freddie is simply not experienced enough to know how to fight through those picks and Ronnie 's biggest weakness is fighting through picks. So Reggie is the Pacers best bet. Although I would be interested in seeing what AJ could do guarding him.

    I see a 7 game eastern conference finals between these two teams. Homecourt might be the only difference.

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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Excellent Post Unclebuck , Best Post I have seen written today

    I defintely agree with you thoughts on Hamilton , he defintely reminds me of a younger Reggie Miller , Reggie used to do alot of the same things Hamilton does now.

    Reggie used to be a tough person to cover he used to pick his man to death and that's how he got alot of open looks at the basket .

  3. #3

    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    The main thing that stuck out to me was our inability to get a good angle on the post entry passes. Detroit was putting alot of pressure on those passes, but we didn't seem to want to swing the ball enough to make the defense rotate.

    Of course part of that is due to the shot clock being run down because of Detriot's pressure. Tinsely would have made a difference, but we still had like 10 turnovers on post entry passes.

    If we meet them in the playoffs I think we can win it even if their D turns it up another notch because we play good D and I think our offense is little less suseptible to droughts than the Piston's.

    I was impressed with the Pistons though. They are a little deeper than I had thought they were, but I still think in a 7 game series with some additional offense from Bender that we would win. Since their bench is a big reason why we lost today.

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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    I agree with a lot of what you say Buck. One point you make

    "The Pistons are a great defensive team. When describing great defensive teams people often say, "they don't let you get a good shot" The Pistons are better than that, they don't let you make a decent pass."

    is exactly what the Pistons try to do. They certainly made entry passes very difficult in this game. And they contest as many shots as possible.... at least that is their intention.

    But in this game, I honestly felt like the Pacers more than our share of open looks at the basket..... a few from inside, several from mid-range, and even more at the arc when the ball was passed out of the double-team. Bottom line is we must have heard a lot of footsteps, because we just plain missed a lot of open shots.

    The Pistons double-team the ball all over the court. That is something that can and should be exploited.

    To set up my last point, I'd preface it by the fact that most of us would agree that "defense wins games in the playoffs".

    You make an excellent point about Hamilton. One that several of us make in other threads. We have no one that really guards guys like Hamilton, Baron Davis, TJ Ford, Kidd and Peyton very well on our roster at this time. But we do have one on IR..... Siggy.

    We certainly would not want to play Brewer for extended minutes if we have other alternatives. But what do you think about putting Brewer on the playoff roster with the intent of using him for 4-5 key minutes within a game to disrupt the quick guard that no one else is able to contain?

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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Because Hamilton is so skinny, there is nothing to hold onto, nothing to grab, that makes him even tougher to deal with.

    If the Pistons and Pacers do meet in the playoffs, officiating will be huge. If the Pistons are allowed to hand check like they were today, that spells trouble.

    Watching todays game reminded me of watching the Knicks and Pacers of 1994 and 1995 when Derek Harper was wreaking havoc.


    I listened to Slick in the first half today as I watched the game and he said something that very telling and true. He said the Pistons were able to run their offense and able to get decent shots while the Pacers were lucky to get a shot near the basket. That never changed throughout the games, except for when Ronnie got it going in the 3rd quarter, and as I was watchign the game I was amazed the pacers were able to stay as close as they did, but thinking back it was only a matter of time before the damn broke.

    One other thing, the pacers need to adjust their offense when the face the Pistons again, when a decent shot presents itself, Take It. So many times today the Pacers had a decent shot but passed it up in an effort to get a better shot, that works well against most teams but not he Pistons, they recovery so quickly, that good shots are only available for a second. Against most teams if you move the ball and execute "your offense" you get good shots.


    Edit: Beast, I don't think for one minute that Brewer can guard Hamilton. Guarding someone like Rip around those screens is an art, it takes know how as much as or more than speed and quickness.

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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    One thing I do know: Rip kills smaller guards in the post as well as any 2-guard in the NBA, which is surprising for a kid so skinny. Rip would just shoot right over the top of Brewer, which is why I think Carlisle won't even consider that.

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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Just so you know Brewer is listed at 6-5 and Rip is listed at 6-6. Not really a huge advantage.

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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Just so you know Brewer is listed at 6-5 and Rip is listed at 6-6. Not really a huge advantage.
    Plus Brewer is an athletic freak. I'd bet he can outjump Rip.

    I didn't see the game today. Did Rip post up Freddy Jones? I wouldn't have thought that possible.
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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    I don't know why peopel are so hyped over Brewer, I just don't think he's all that great.
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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Hey UB I don't want to get into spelling, grammar, or any of those things. But these two Freudian slips were HILARIOUS.

    watchign the game I was amazed the pacers were able to stay as close as they did, but thinking back it was only a matter of time before the damn broke.
    Tell us how you really feel about this game!

    Guarding someone like Rip around those screens I an art, it takes no-how as much as or more than speed and quickness.
    Surely SOMEBODY can do it!
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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    I don't know why peopel are so hyped over Brewer, I just don't think he's all that great.
    His D is great. His speed is great.

    He can't run a team like a 1 or shoot the ball like a 2, but boy does he look good on the bench!
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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Just so you know Brewer is listed at 6-5 and Rip is listed at 6-6. Not really a huge advantage.
    Plus Brewer is an athletic freak. I'd bet he can outjump Rip.

    I didn't see the game today. Did Rip post up Freddy Jones? I wouldn't have thought that possible.
    He only posted up Freddy in the paint once or twice that I can remember, but Rip did take him into the paint off the dribble every chance he got, and Freddy never really was able to contest a shot he took down there.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Hey UB I don't want to get into spelling, grammar, or any of those things. But these two Freudian slips were HILARIOUS.

    watchign the game I was amazed the pacers were able to stay as close as they did, but thinking back it was only a matter of time before the damn broke.
    Tell us how you really feel about this game!

    Guarding someone like Rip around those screens I an art, it takes no-how as much as or more than speed and quickness.
    Surely SOMEBODY can do it!



    The first one is funny, the second one is

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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    I don't know why peopel are so hyped over Brewer, I just don't think he's all that great.
    His D is great. His speed is great.

    He can't run a team like a 1 or shoot the ball like a 2, but boy does he look good on the bench!
    I don't know why it is that I think Bender is still a flash in the pan, and that Freddie is still a scrub, but that I like Brewer so much. I don't even know that it's more than just a gut-level reaction to their games.

    Maybe it is because Brewer's defensive intensity has made things happen in the transition, which is something we could have injected, even if just for a minute or two, to change the momentum of the game.

    That's something that Ron has that has got us where we are today but that we lose completely when Ron is on the bench in foul trouble.

    *sigh*
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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    There are two ways to beat the Pistons pressure defense.

    1) when is is one-on-one pressure, the only way to beat it is with dribble penetration. There is no way to make a decent pass against that type of pressure. That is why Artest and Tinsley are so important against the Pistons.

    2) Now when they Pistons trap the ball either at midcourt or near the sidelines, the Pacers must anticipate the trap and pass the ball quickly, and for goodness sake keep the ball in the middle of the court. We all know that Brown always drags the big guy to the ball handler near halfcourt. When the Pacers have their big guy throw the ball in bounds the big guy defending traps the ball handler, easy way to prevent that is have Artest or Reggie throw the ball in.

    Two great points UB. Larry Brown used this same defense with the 76ers when we had Theo and Hill he couldn't use it with Mutombo and DC because they were too slow to recover.

    The teams that were able to exploit that trapping style of defense were two types of teams. The first type of team was a team with three good ball handlers on the court, ironically the Pacers were one of those teams that is why we couldn't defend you guys in the playoffs those years. You had Jackson and Miller that could handle the ball but the x factor was that you guys had a pt. forward so to speak in Jalen giving you three good ball handlers so when we would trap the Pacers would make an immediate pass out of it and always get an open shot because in essense after the failed trap it was a 4-3 situation. So you can get burned by trapping.

    The other type of team that gave the 76ers fits using the trap was a team that went with a small lineup and had "big" men that could knock down the outside shot. Orlando owned us back then because they would spread the floor, immediately pass out of the trap then make us pay with an open shot from Garrity etc.,,. If you want a blueprint for beating Larry Browns trap all you have to do is look at the tape from those 76ers/Orlando games, it was a joke the way Orlando shredded that trapping style of defense. I noticed yesterday when the Pistons were using Sheed to go out and trap they were leaving Foster; the problem was when the Pacers recognized it and Foster got the ball away from the basket he couldn't do anything with it because thats not his game. On one occasion he tried to drive the ball and it was ugly but on many occasions he would hesitate and look to give it back to a ballhandler this is just as bad because it gave the defense a chance to recover. What I would do as an adjustment I would take Foster out of the game and go with a smaller lineup of Croshere or Harrington so when Rasheed goes out to trap when the ball comes back to Croshere or Harrington they'll have great open looks or they can exploit the 4-3 situation by creating something but the key is they'll make the Pistons pay for trapping. Let Rasheed go out and trap and have his wide open man knock down a couple of wide open threes and that will take alot of starch out of the Pistons defense I know because I witnessed it many times in Philly when we would use the same defense. When you have ballhandlers and shooters on the court that defense is really exploitable also its not like you have to have a great defender in the game against Ben Wallace hes not going to make you pay for playing an offensive lineup because Ben's offense is pretty weak so he can't exploit it.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: What I learned from the Pistons v Pacers game today

    Quote Originally Posted by "dipperdunk
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    The teams that were able to exploit that trapping style of defense were two types of teams. The first type of team was a team with three good ball handlers on the court, ironically the Pacers were one of those teams that is why we couldn't defend you guys in the playoffs those years. You had Jackson and Miller that could handle the ball but the x factor was that you guys had a pt. forward so to speak in Jalen giving you three good ball handlers so when we would trap the Pacers would make an immediate pass out of it and always get an open shot because in essense after the failed trap it was a 4-3 situation. So you can get burned by trapping.

    The other type of team that gave the 76ers fits using the trap was a team that went with a small lineup and had "big" men that could knock down the outside shot. Orlando owned us back then because they would spread the floor, immediately pass out of the trap then make us pay with an open shot from Garrity etc.,,. If you want a blueprint for beating Larry Browns trap all you have to do is look at the tape from those 76ers/Orlando games, it was a joke the way Orlando shredded that trapping style of defense. I noticed yesterday when the Pistons were using Sheed to go out and trap they were leaving Foster; the problem was when the Pacers recognized it and Foster got the ball away from the basket he couldn't do anything with it because thats not his game. On one occasion he tried to drive the ball and it was ugly but on many occasions he would hesitate and look to give it back to a ballhandler this is just as bad because it gave the defense a chance to recover. What I would do as an adjustment I would take Foster out of the game and go with a smaller lineup of Croshere or Harrington so when Rasheed goes out to trap when the ball comes back to Croshere or Harrington they'll have great open looks or they can exploit the 4-3 situation by creating something but the key is they'll make the Pistons pay for trapping. Let Rasheed go out and trap and have his wide open man knock down a couple of wide open threes and that will take alot of starch out of the Pistons defense I know because I witnessed it many times in Philly when we would use the same defense. When you have ballhandlers and shooters on the court that defense is really exploitable also its not like you have to have a great defender in the game against Ben Wallace hes not going to make you pay for playing an offensive lineup because Ben's offense is pretty weak so he can't exploit it.[/size]


    Some great stuff. I agree with you about Foster. the problem yesterday is Foster was having a good game. Foster is not an offensive threat, but he can dribble and he can make a pass off the dribble well, much better than Cro. Jeff was short in HS and he played guard. Of course you don't have to guard Jeff outside of 8 feet. so that changes things. If you notice Cro did play a lot with the starters, especially when Ronnie was in foul trouble.

    The Pacers of the late 90's were great against pressure. With Rose and even Mullen, that made a huge difference. Also Iverson is not a great on the ball defender, he is great in passing lanes.

    The one-on-one pressure is what worries more than the trapping, in the playoffs when you have time to prepare and get used to that, it is not tough to counter. The Pistons are so good because they have such quick big guys

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