Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Why is JO considered integral to our success

  1. #1
    Banned Destined4Greatness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,668

    Default Why is JO considered integral to our success

    In the Last 2 Seasons, 04-05 and 05-06.

    Our winning record with O'neal(41-38) .519
    Our winning record without O'neal (24-21)* .532
    Our winning record with O'neal between suspension and Injury(04-05) (16-16) .500

    * Counts the Games, where Artest and Jackson were also suspended.

    So we have better winning record Without O'neal. Wierd.

    And just to give you some perspective:

    Our winning record with Jackson(51-40) .560
    Our winning record without Jackson(14-19) .452

    So not only is Jackson our most healthy Player. But unlike JO, our winning % is lower when he doesn't play. AMAZING.

    Of course these standings ignore Playoffs, where they both had the same winning percentage, but one was healthy!

  2. #2
    Get well soon PG! Believe_in_blue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,555

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Blah.

  3. #3
    Diesel_81
    Guest

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    [quote=Destined4Greatness]

    And just to give you some perspective:

    Our winning record with Jackson(51-40) .560
    Our winning record without Jackson(14-19) .452

    So not only is Jackson our most healthy Player. But unlike JO, our winning % is lower when he doesn't play. AMAZING.

    quote]

    A perfect example about why stats alone can be misleading.

  4. #4
    Banned Destined4Greatness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,668

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    And that is a perfect example that most Pacer fans have a hard on for JO

  5. #5
    Get well soon PG! Believe_in_blue's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,555

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Quote Originally Posted by Destined4Greatness
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And that is a perfect example that most Pacer fans have a hard on for JO
    Was that really appropriate?

  6. #6
    Banned Destined4Greatness's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,668

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Quote Originally Posted by Believe_in_blue
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Was that really appropriate?
    No but it was accurate.

  7. #7
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,128

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    The Pacers play better basketball without JO. I've been saying it for awhile now.

    I don't know how many times we have to see it before people start believing it... The only question I have is if it is the player or the system.

    That the stats would show it doesn't surprise me.

    I became a believer last season when I was told that when JO returned from suspension we'd be OK.... We weren't. In fact, our best stretch of the season came when we got a power forward (who played with power) and JO sitting on the bench injured. That should've been an eye-opener if the earlier part of the season wasn't already. The 55 point game means nothing. Blah.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  8. #8
    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    New Haven, CT
    Posts
    8,751

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The Pacers play better basketball without JO. I've been saying it for awhile now.

    I don't know how many times we have to see it before people start believing it... The only question I have is if it is the player or the system.

    That the stats would show it doesn't surprise me.

    I became a believer last season when I was told that when JO returned from suspension we'd be OK.... We weren't. In fact, our best stretch of the season came when we got a power forward (who played with power) and JO sitting on the bench injured. That should've been an eye-opener if the earlier part of the season wasn't already. The 55 point game means nothing. Blah.

    -Bball
    I dunno. I like Jermaine so much off the court that maybe I have ignored how he really isn't integral to our on-court success. However, I think he might work really well with Peja. They won't be able to double team him anymore, quite simply. Especially if we learn to pass it around and make Peja the open man through clever screens if they ever double team. And if they don't, I don't think there are many big guys in this league that can stop J.O.

  9. #9
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    8,699

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Number manipulation, nothing else, and no hte Pacers are not a better team without JO.
    They do however play a different system with JO on the floor, one not particularly liked by the players, but according to some "the right system".

    But hey, we all seem to love all our players so much, that if it was up to a number of poster on this board our starting 5 would be Saras,Fred, Danny, Cro and Harrisson with Foster and AJ coming of the bench.

    I really wonder what would happen if you had a team of that exact quality for a month or so

    The Laundry, as jay said, and some others, that's what counts, and I agree, but please with our best players on the court, and if the system and the players are not matching that well then we should change the system, that is cheaper and easier then the players.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  10. #10
    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indy's Wild Wild West Side: 8 sec-check...Club Rio-check...Cloud 9-check
    Age
    40
    Posts
    5,935

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Bogus stats...IMHO, it's about who you are playing at the time of the injuries. Heck, if we are playing a lot of eastern confrence schleps at the time of O'neal being out, well it is easy to see how our record could be a little better then if we played power house teams while J.O's in the line-up.

    Granted, I like the brand of basketball the team plays in J.O.s absence, but I'm not ready to go out on that limb with Bball saying the team is better off without O'neal in the lineup.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  11. #11

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    After thinking this over for the last couple of days, I personally have decided this is one of the mysteries of life.

    Whenever he is out the team plays together better . It probably has alot to do with that huge contract he signed because I can't see any other reason for him playing the lead role on this team. He is a good player when healthy but he should be a complimentary player but not the number one option.

  12. #12
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    8,699

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    well let's only take this year for JO and see what the real statisticians have to say in On/Off court stats (82games.com) Shows somewhat of a different picture.
    Code:
    Jermaine O'Neal Indiana Pacers 2005-2006 NBA Season

    On Court / Off Court stats Many stats are shown on a 'per 48 minute' basis
    Stat
    ON Court
    OFF Court
    Net
    Minutes
    1247
    765
    61%
    Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.
    105.4
    102.6
    +2.8
    Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
    103.4
    102.6
    +0.8
    Net Points per 100 Possessions
    +2.0
    +0.0
    +2.0
    Points Scored
    2450
    1458
    +992
    Points Allowed
    2389
    1461
    +928
    Net Points
    +61
    -3
    +64
    Effective FG%
    49.3%
    48.6%
    +0.7%
    Effective FG% Allowed
    46.4%
    46.0%
    +0.3%
    Assisted Field Goals
    56%
    54%
    +2%
    Assisted FG% Allowed
    53%
    53%
    +0%
    Own Shots Blocked
    6%
    6%
    +0%
    Shots Blocked
    6%
    5%
    +1%
    Rebounding
    Offensive Rebounding
    26.9%
    27.2%
    -0.3%
    Defensive Rebounding
    69.9%
    71.9%
    -2.0%
    Total Rebounding
    48.4%
    49.6%
    -1.1%
    Stats
    Free Throws Made
    20
    19
    +1
    Free Throws Attempted
    28
    26
    +2
    Free Throws Made by Opp.
    18
    21
    +3
    Free Throws Attempted by Opp.
    26
    28
    +2
    Turnovers, on Offense
    15
    16
    +1
    Turnovers, on Defense
    14
    14
    +0
    Net Turnovers
    -1
    -2
    -1
    Fouls Committed
    22
    23
    +1
    Fouls, Drawn
    23
    21
    +2
    Net Fouls
    1
    -2
    -3

    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  13. #13
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    London UK
    Posts
    8,699

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Tinsley in 04-05:
    Code:
    Stat
    ON Court
    OFF Court
    Net
    Minutes
    1298
    2676
    32%
    Offense: Pts per 100 Poss.
    108.8
    104.9
    +3.9
    Defense: Pts per 100 Poss.
    105.6
    105.5
    +0.1
    Net Points per 100 Possessions
    +3.2
    -0.6
    +3.9
    Points Scored
    2656
    4975
    -2319
    Points Allowed
    2555
    5016
    -2461
    Net Points
    +101
    -41
    +142
    Effective FG%
    50.1%
    46.4%
    +3.7%
    Effective FG% Allowed
    47.3%
    47.1%
    +0.1%
    Assisted Field Goals
    56%
    55%
    +1%
    Assisted FG% Allowed
    58%
    54%
    +4%
    Own Shots Blocked
    6%
    6%
    +0%
    Shots Blocked
    6%
    5%
    +1%
    Rebounding
    Offensive Rebounding
    29.2%
    28.0%
    +1.2%
    Defensive Rebounding
    70.6%
    69.4%
    +1.2%
    Total Rebounding
    49.9%
    48.7%
    +1.2%
    Stats
    Free Throws Made
    20
    21
    -1
    Free Throws Attempted
    26
    26
    +0
    Free Throws Made by Opp.
    21
    18
    -3
    Free Throws Attempted by Opp.
    28
    25
    -3
    Turnovers, on Offense
    15
    13
    -2
    Turnovers, on Defense
    14
    13
    +1
    Net Turnovers
    -1
    0
    +1
    Fouls Committed
    23
    22
    -1
    Fouls, Drawn
    22
    22
    +0
    Net Fouls
    -1
    0
    +1

    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

    If you've done 6 impossible things today?
    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


  14. #14
    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Age
    29
    Posts
    1,760

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    I thought anyone with half a brain was well aware that Jermaine is soooo overrated. We will go nowhere with him being our number one option. I got high hopes that the Pacers will have a real good team when JO's contract is up.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Having a player who can rebound well, be a threat to alter shots, hit mid-range jumpers, score in the post, and draw double teams should not be a detriment to winning. If it is it is the fault of the coaches.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  16. #16

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The Pacers play better basketball without JO. I've been saying it for awhile now.

    I don't know how many times we have to see it before people start believing it... The only question I have is if it is the player or the system.

    That the stats would show it doesn't surprise me.

    I became a believer last season when I was told that when JO returned from suspension we'd be OK.... We weren't. In fact, our best stretch of the season came when we got a power forward (who played with power) and JO sitting on the bench injured. That should've been an eye-opener if the earlier part of the season wasn't already. The 55 point game means nothing. Blah.

    -Bball
    I think I've been trying to make this point the same amount of time you have. I saw it about the same time, and I thought it was absolutely obvious. I think some people just don't WANT to see it.

  17. #17
    Pacesetter
    Guest

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    I think to answer bball's question it's the system the Pacers are playing in that limits how effective JO is, BUT .... JO could still change the system if he could realize the role he's playing in now with the isolation ball isn't where he'll shine. However. Long story short, if JO went to Carlisle and urged Carlisle to change the way this team plays its offense and get out in the open court more, spread the floor more, and give everyone an equal stake in the outcome of games, I believe JO will still find a way to put up 20-10 numbers, and the team will have many others scoring and playing well. Most importantly, the team will have more in the Win column, but there's no doubt, the way this team plays when JO is injured versus the way it plays when he's present is obvious - they do play better. Again, I don't believe JO is the cause, I believe it's that the coaches are not utilizing the players we've got. Pure and Simple! JO is the best post up player we've had in the last 25 years, he's NOT the problem, especially considering the guy isn't shooting it 25 times in a game. Everyone should be able to see this just as easy as you noticed the discrepancy to start with.

  18. #18
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,254

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Those stats do not tell the whole story...and are in fact misinformation. They are affected by a multitude of other factors like how often was Tinsley out while Jermaine was too. Also, teams may take it easier on the Pacers when the big guy is out...or on the other hand, the team may step it up when he is gone. There is also the problem with players coming in and out and the breaks in continuity when JO gets out of the line-up. After all, the offense is geared for him being in there...and that has to hurt the play. There are minutes many games where the score is not at all indicative of the game itself. I think we all see that. In short, it is a whole lot more complicated than the stats posted above would lead you to believe.

    BUT, I do like the way the Pacers play without him. They seem to play with more effort and are definitely more entertaining.

  19. #19
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,254

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I thought anyone with half a brain was well aware that Jermaine is soooo overrated. We will go nowhere with him being our number one option. I got high hopes that the Pacers will have a real good team when JO's contract is up.
    JO's stock is going down a bit with the injuries. I don't think he has looked good this year and generally I would have to agree that he is overrated. But he still has a great post up game and excellent range from 12 ft...and is a great shotblocker. ...but he is probably not one of the top 3 PF's in the league based on this year's perfrmance and his knack for being on the IL.

    ...and I would agree that he is not a number one option on most championship teams...so I would not cry if the Pacer's dealt him.

  20. #20
    SoThenRobbieSaid
    Guest

    Default Re: Why is JO considered integral to our success

    The Pacers play better without J.O., because they know they aren't guarenteed 20+ points, 8+ boards, a couple of blocks, and solid interior defense. When you take out those things, it forces everyone else to step up.

    And for the statistics...I just remeber a few years back, when Tinsley was starting (during the 61 W season), we went 34-7. Although I like him, it's easy to tell how most of you feel about him. A good example of misleading stats. Was he the lone reason for those 61 wins? Sure...a valuable asset, but not the sole reason.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •