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Thread: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

  1. #1

    Default Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    This may have been mentioned before, but I was just thinking about this perspective. When you have a deep team you:

    1. Never have enough minutes for all your guys.

    2. Often the money/talent is spread over many players. Not lots of guys that are AllStars, just a bunch of good guys and maybe one star.

    3. The lack of minutes for some guys creates a lack of harmony.

    I know some finals teams claim to be deep, but there are teams that have won it all that don't go deep at all. Detroit seemed to have a pretty tight rotation as I recall, but that may have changed.

  2. #2
    Member Moses's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Your players will get worn down through the course of the season and injuries are more likely when you play your starting 5 for 40 minutes+. Being deep is never a bad thing..It's not having the all-star starting 5 out there.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    I think that what is more important than having a deep team is having a durable team. If you have a durable team you can develope some good chemistry because you have your core guys playing night in and night out and this is why the Detroit Pistons are so great.

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    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Talent and durabilty wins championships. Detroit has been blessed with both.
    Depth is over-rated.
    The Pacers need to look very hard at the players they pick in the draft
    to make sure they have been durable in college and to pick a 3 or 4 year
    player over an equally talented 1 or 2 year player.


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  5. #5

    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl
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    Talent and durabilty wins championships. Detroit has been blessed with both.
    Depth is over-rated.
    The Pacers need to look very hard at the players they pick in the draft
    to make sure they have been durable in college and to pick a 3 or 4 year
    player over an equally talented 1 or 2 year player.


    owl
    Yeah, I guess that has kind of been my thoughts latley. The bragging point on this team has always been "we have a team of great depth," but it never seems to translate into any championships.

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Another thing to consider is that I have noticed about Championship teams:

    1. Building from the draft alone doesn't usually work. Most teams that have won championships have done so through shrewd trades and free agency. This goes back to the days of Magic and and Showtime Lakers.

    2. Depth is good but veteran depth is much, much better. The Pacers have had the problem of having young depth which, IMO, is counterproductive because they're often concerned with making a name for themselves and most of them believe they are stars in the making. A lack of minutes leads to discontentment and can cause problems or the young player to slump.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Depth is great but only if some of your deep players are willing to accept roles.

    Depth is great but you still need to establish consistency. Having the players to step in if a starter or 6th man goes down is one thing - having to constantly replace starters and primary bench players is another.

    To me, my perfect team depth chart (no positions mentioned) would be:

    1-6 starter quality
    7-8 potential starters/starters for non-contenders
    9-10 solid bench
    11-12 specialists
    13-15 warm bodies just in case
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    Member Tony Valente's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Yea, and the warm bodies should be Marcus Camby, Jason Richardson and Dwyane Wade. Come on. Let's face reality and stop thinking theoretically: Suns had success last year with only 1 true reserve, which was Jim Jackson; Detroit won a championship having McDyes and Hunter as only legitimate back-ups; last season Spurs used only Horry and Barry on a regular basis; Heat had the bench full of old guys. All of them played great. Now Heat are not that good anymore, once they bulked up, Spurs have 10 stars in their team and yet seem to be looking for their rythm.

    I don't know what to say. The perfect team is the one where players complete themselves, and have a coach able to make this happen. This is just not our case now.

    Oh, by the way. How come the Pistons' players are never injured? Except those unfortunate situations when Hamilton got punched in his nose or whatever happened when he wore that mask...

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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    The formula for winning a title is to be blessed with these 3 things:

    1) Commitment. Your players have to commit to each other. To play for each other; to bring that effort every night for their team mates.

    2) Talent. At least 6 starter-quality players. Veterans to fill in the rest of the bench.

    3) Health.

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?
    A: Absolutely.

    Next?

    + + + + + + +

    Teams don't play more than six or seven guys in the Finals. It doesn't matter how good your seventh, eighth, twelfth men are in that situation. But you need an outstanding starting lineup.

    We've needed, for a very long time, to trade some of our depth for better starters.

    Also, the point about young depth (still trying to establish themselves) vs. veteran depth (usually good all-around players that are *willing* to accept a role) is quite valid.
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    Expect Delays blanket's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?
    If your deep bench is earning starter's wages (Croshere, Bender, Pollard, etc.), then the answer is a definite YES.
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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Put me in the camp with Jay on this one. Totally agree. We might define 'better' starters differently (or maybe we wouldn't) but the idea is the same either way.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Well, considering that our starting center last year is Detroit's third, maybe fourth string center this year, I would like to reframe the question:

    Are mediocre draft picks, acquisitions of players with bad attitudes, stupid resignings, and a risk-averse attitude to big trades counterproductive to winning a title?

  14. #14

    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan
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    Well, considering that our starting center last year is Detroit's third, maybe fourth string center this year, I would like to reframe the question:

    Are mediocre draft picks, acquisitions of players with bad attitudes, stupid resignings, and a risk-averse attitude to big trades counterproductive to winning a title?

    Well, the point I was trying to illustrate is that you need to have 5 pretty spectacular players. They can be role players, but they have to be A to B+ players. Even if the rest of your guys are C-F, it won't matter.

    The Pacers have one A player and a ton of guys in the B- to C+ range. The good news is that one of them goes down for an injury or something, you don't feel much of a sting. The bad news is that you just don't win anything.

    I also was doing some thoughts about the Dream team. Not alot of great athletes on that team but some really wonderful basketball players. There was an extremely high basketball IQ on that team.

    I think our goal of getting athletic/multi-dimensional players is just a failed experiement. We just need to find some good basketball players. Athleticism will always be important at some level, but there are more important attributes.

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    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Agree Brichard. Give me players with a sound mind for the game and
    skills over pure physical talent any day. I hope that era is over for the Pacers.
    Bring on some of the trades mentioned.


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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Quote Originally Posted by owl
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    Agree Brichard. Give me players with a sound mind for the game and
    skills over pure physical talent any day. I hope that era is over for the Pacers.
    Bring on some of the trades mentioned.


    owl

    Agreed.

    Our overall basketball I.Q. has been low since the 00 season.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    I like having Veteran depth, but I always beleive you are only as good as your best 5 players. Look at the Pistons. There is never any doubt who is going to play at crunch time, and I think that is so important.

    As far as IQ vs. physical Talent. I think you look for players who have both

  18. #18

    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    As far as IQ vs. physical Talent. I think you look for players who have both
    And yet your favoite player completely lacked one of those categories!

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt
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    And yet your favoite player completely lacked one of those categories!
    Funny joke, but IQ and emotional health are not the same thing.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    Funny joke, but IQ and emotional health are not the same thing.
    I stand by my statement.

  21. #21
    Member Mr.ThunderMakeR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Dont use our example of self-centered misfits to make a blanket conclusion that having too much talent is a bad thing. There are lots of players who are talented but can remain committed to winning.

  22. #22
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt
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    And yet your favoite player completely lacked one of those categories!
    If we are talking basketball IQ, I never doubted Artest didn't have a good grasp of the game mentally. It's his stability that was always in question.

    -Bball
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  23. #23
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Is Having a Deep Team counterproductive to winning a title?

    Problem was that his grasp was still based on the flawed one-on-one premise.

    He did not have a good basketball IQ for the team concepts. His help defense was non-existent, but didn't matter because he was so good locked into his man. And clearly he suffered from ballhogitis on offense. And he had no nose for the ball at all when it came to rebounding. Even "soft" Peja is a better rebounder than "tough" Ron.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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