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Thread: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Kravitz admitted he was wrong. The offers did get better as time passed

    OK, I'll admit it, this was probably the best Pacers cooumn Bob has ever written.

    And it makes me wonder if the Pacers did not pull out of the Maggette trade partially because of his injury and partially because they received word the Kings were willing to trade Peja.

    Peck, I'd be interested in your thoughts on the quote from DW that I highlighted about falling in love with talent. Somehting you have been saying for a couple of years now


    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...plate=printart

    Bob Kravitz
    Pacers made the best of a wretched situation
    January 26, 2006


    So it's over. The strange and twisted saga of the Indiana Pacers and Ron Artest, a marquee player who made himself into a sideshow, is finished. The trade is finally official, although there's still the possibility Artest will decide this morning he's retiring to pursue his dream of becoming an astronaut.

    Assuming this is done, though, you have to conclude the Pacers did a pretty fine job salvaging a horrible situation.

    This would have been a sweeter deal back when the Pacers first wanted to acquire Peja Stojakovic -- if only the Kings would have cooperated -- but team president Larry Bird and team CEO Donnie Walsh are still getting a former All-Star back for a knucklehead who was never going to play for this franchise again.

    And they are doing something very few sports executives are willing to do: Acknowledge that despite their best intentions, they made serious mistakes in the way they handled Artest.

    "My way has always been to support players,'' Walsh said. "And if anything, I've probably gone too far with Ronnie because I thought he was a young player who was going to learn how to do things. And over the years, when he'd do things, I felt like he'd learn from it and things would get better.

    "But he generated so much attention, and it got so much bigger than it was. At a point, I thought what he told me was true: Anything he did here was going to be blown up and affect his teammates. The more I thought about it (the night after his public trade request), the more I thought that it was absolutely true, that it wasn't going to work here and that no matter how much support we gave him, it was just over and we had to move on.

    "I feel like it was a failure in a sense. And if anything, I felt like we went too long with it.''

    For the most part, the Pacers stayed with Artest for all the best reasons, because they thought they could turn him around. But, Walsh admitted, they were blinded.

    "As somebody who's done it for 40 years, you fall in love with talent,'' Walsh said. "Many times in my career, I've thought maybe you shouldn't fall in love with talent; there are other attributes. Unfortunately, in our business, you fall in love with talent.''

    Bird offered similar sentiments.

    "Over the last four, five years, you've seen some of the things, and maybe we did bend over too much for Ronnie to try to help him,'' Bird said. "But I can sleep good at night, knowing we did the best we could.''

    Their mea culpas were not the only ones Wednesday.

    Here's mine: Upon further review, the front office made the right move by taking its time moving Artest. This wasn't a deal that could have been made a few weeks ago. In fact, once word got out that the Clippers were ready to acquire Artest for Corey Maggette, other suitors ratcheted up their interest.

    Did the Pacers get equal value?


    Well, if you're asking whether Stojakovic rates with Artest as a player, the obvious answer is no. When Artest's head is right, he's a top-15 player. For a Kings franchise that was going nowhere fast this season, obtaining Artest was a risk well worth taking.

    If you're asking whether the Pacers are better off with Stojakovic than Artest, there's an obvious answer there, too: absolutely.

    It's no secret around the NBA that Stojakovic isn't the player he once was. He's had injury problems. His scoring and shooting percentage numbers have dipped dramatically in recent years. He has the reputation as an indifferent defender who disappears in the playoffs.

    Still.

    I still like the trade.

    The Pacers got a former All-Star.

    They got someone who plays the small forward, which allows Stephen Jackson to do what he was supposed to do here: play the two-guard and operate as a third scoring option.

    They got someone who can shoot, open up the floor and make the Pacers more fun to watch.

    They got someone who is highly motivated to produce in what is essentially a contract year.

    And, who knows? Maybe with a change of scenery, and a head coach who demands defensive accountability, and the presence of his idol, Bird, on the premises, he resurrects his game here.

    This may not be the trade that turns around a Pacers season that has begun to circle the drain, but this will, at the very least, reduce the number of excuses currently at the players' disposal. This gives them a much-needed mental kick-start, and a long-awaited sense that the age of anarchy is finally over.

    "In the end,'' Walsh was asked, "why do you think it came to this?''
    He paused.

    "That's a great question,'' he answered. "I think it's a collision of worlds. Maybe this wasn't the right team for a guy like Ronnie. And by us supporting him, it was getting worse and worse, and we didn't see it because we thought we could make it better. I know this: It was all well-intentioned by everybody involved, but after a while, too many things happened . . .''

    In the long run, it could turn out that Sacramento got the best in the deal.

    And yet, this was the only way this mess could have been resolved. The Pacers got more than some of us figured they would. It was all anybody could ask.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    It certainly wasn't the right team for Ron. It had other humans on it.

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    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    was just on Kornheiser's radio show, and he said two things worth noting.

    - He said, "I guess I can say this now, but Larry told me personally after the 2004 ECF that he wanted to trade Ron for Peja. He felt that they'd dodged the bullet so far, and his trade value would never be higher." has alluded to this many times, but now he's finally gone on the record. Do we believe him?

    - Second, just to set the tone, Tony loves , he absolutely loves him. Tony thinks he's absolutely wonderful. So, it was surprising when even Tony gave him crap for his "trade JO" article. tried to justify it, but Tony kept hammering, so he backtracked and said that the article was written when he expected we'd get junk for Ron, not someone like Peja.

    Also, I'm sure everyone will be happy to know that went out of his way to bash Jack and Tinsley, especially Tinsley.
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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    I've got to be brief.

    I watched the entire news conferance on WTHR websight & all I can tell you is that if anything I felt sorry of Walsh.

    You're right, I've said that for two plus years about Ron & truth be told I was saying that before that about J.O.

    But at the end of the day, & this is why I have not been bashing Walsh as much as some of my old time fellow posters think I should have been doing, he's right. You do fall in love with talent & the old saying is love makes you blind.

    He was/is a talented basketball player. However he is a flawed team mate (I won't say human because off of the court I don't know him).

    Horrid mistakes were made, you can't do away with a mistake but in this case they have at least started to aknowledge that it was a mistake.

    The step towards recovery is admitting you have a problem.

    Actually maybe might digest carrol was as much about Donnie as it was about you.

    Now one thing I wanted to make a post on but just didn't have time & I don't have time now to do this justice.

    Is somewhere around the 8-9 min. mark of that press conferance Larry Bird said something very very very interesting.

    I won't use quotes because I don't know the exact words but it was along the lines of this.

    We play to much isolation low post offense. He wants to see ball movement & he wants to see player movements.

    Now you can blame the players to a point for breaking plays & holding the ball, but if I'm not mistaken isn't Carlisle's entire offense based on low post isolation plays that limit turnovers?

    That's the second time I've heard Larry make comment about not liking the way we play offense.

    Add that up with his criticism of Rick for punishing some of the players for not making the plays & I think there is starting to not only be a rift between the players & Rick I think there is now a rift between Larry & Rick.

    At least that is my view of it & I could be wrong.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Peck, I saw that quote from Larry in one of the Indystar articles, I know it was in there, and I too saw the clip from the PC of Bird saying that. Should be interesting.


    Back to DW's talent comments, I wonder what that means for two layers in particluar, Tinsley and Jax and maybe even Harrison, i wodner if he'll look at those three talented players a little differently

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I've got to be brief.

    I watched the entire news conferance on WTHR websight & all I can tell you is that if anything I felt sorry of Walsh.

    You're right, I've said that for two plus years about Ron & truth be told I was saying that before that about J.O.

    But at the end of the day, & this is why I have not been bashing Walsh as much as some of my old time fellow posters think I should have been doing, he's right. You do fall in love with talent & the old saying is love makes you blind.

    He was/is a talented basketball player. However he is a flawed team mate (I won't say human because off of the court I don't know him).

    Horrid mistakes were made, you can't do away with a mistake but in this case they have at least started to aknowledge that it was a mistake.

    The step towards recovery is admitting you have a problem.

    Actually maybe might digest carrol was as much about Donnie as it was about you.

    Now one thing I wanted to make a post on but just didn't have time & I don't have time now to do this justice.

    Is somewhere around the 8-9 min. mark of that press conferance Larry Bird said something very very very interesting.

    I won't use quotes because I don't know the exact words but it was along the lines of this.

    We play to much isolation low post offense. He wants to see ball movement & he wants to see player movements.

    Now you can blame the players to a point for breaking plays & holding the ball, but if I'm not mistaken isn't Carlisle's entire offense based on low post isolation plays that limit turnovers?

    That's the second time I've heard Larry make comment about not liking the way we play offense.

    Add that up with his criticism of Rick for punishing some of the players for not making the plays & I think there is starting to not only be a rift between the players & Rick I think there is now a rift between Larry & Rick.

    At least that is my view of it & I could be wrong.
    I don't get this. Didn't our two biggest win streaks last year result from Carlisle switching to a motion offense? I'm thinking of right after the brawl and late in the season when we reverted to the 97-99 offense. Why are we assuming that Carlisle is incapable of playing a motion offense. Facts are facts: Rick's offenseive schemes are all about Jermaine. Jermaine is a one-dimensional, predictable post player. He's like a refrigerator. The light goes on, the light goes off and it won't do anything that's not built into it already. He's a great post player, but he's a post player none the less. Rick is right to play to JO's strengths.

    When Jermaine goes out, Carlisle's history shows that he is more than willing to change the offensive schemes.

    Until this year.

    Look out, now we have Harrison mimicking Jermaine's post play. So when JO misses a game, we're dumping it into Harrison. That's a disaster because Harrison is not good enough at this time to get it done the way JO does. And now lately I've even seen Tinsley isolated. TINSLEY FFS!

    I want a ball movement/player movement offense as much as the next guy, the main question is cna Jermaine play that way?

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by San Jose is cooler
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    I want a ball movement/player movement offense as much as the next guy, the main question is cna Jermaine play that way?
    There are (now) three players on the roster who would be capable of playing impactively (thanks Jay) in that kind of offense. Sarunas Yesitsacatfish, Fred Jones, and Peja (though I haven't seen enough of Granger at this point to know which side he would fit in on, but I'd lean towards his being able to do so). That's it.

    So Rick can't be blamed for the scheme we're running now. There's a hell of a lot more to an "up tempo offense" than running really fast and jumping really high. And we simply don't have any of the things required. Like chemistry. And shooting. And a reasonable basketball IQ. And chemistry. We also lack chemistry.

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Well, I jsut got through writing that and looked at the main page to see that JO is out 8 weeks.

    Add Peja with Croshere starting and the motion offense is on the way.

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Obviously Never Actually Been to San Jose
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    There are (now) three players on the roster who would be capable of playing impactively (thanks Jay) in that kind of offense. Sarunas Yesitsacatfish, Fred Jones, and Peja. That's it.

    So Rick can't be blamed the scheme we're running now. There's a hell of a lot more to an "up tempo offense" than running really fast and jumping really high. And we simply don't have any of the things required. Like chemistry. And shooting. And a reasonable basketball IQ. And chemisty. We also lack chemistry.
    What about chemistry?

    It's not about tempo with your feet. It's about tempo of the mind. You should know where you are going to send the ball even before you get the pass. Anyone who catches and THEN looks around should do pushups in practice until the mind-set is changed.

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Smog sucks
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    What about chemistry?

    It's not about tempo with your feet. It's about tempo of the mind. You should know where you are going to send the ball even before you get the pass. Anyone who catches and THEN looks around should do pushups in practice until the mind-set is changed.
    Exactly. I almost have a coronary when we catch the ball, let alone have anyone who either knows where it's going or has a teamate that cares enough to be in the right place. AND THIS IS IN THE MOST BASIC OFFENSE YOU COULD POSSIBLY RUN.




    Blow it up.

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Well, we have no choice but to run a motion with JO out. We'll never run-and-gun, but it will be noticably different. Rick experimented with some Princeton sets in December, I wouldn't be surprised if we see some more of that, considering Peja's background.
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by btowncolt
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    And chemistry. We also lack chemistry.
    And physics too!




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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Just bitter about living in DC
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    Exactly. I almost have a coronary when we catch the ball, let alone have anyone who either knows where it's going or has a teamate that cares enough to be in the right place. AND THIS IS IN THE MOST BASIC OFFENSE YOU COULD POSSIBLY RUN.




    Blow it up.
    I think the team was built to win games defensively. The offense Rick put in was a low risk one so we wouldn't lose games with bad shot selection and turnovers. With Ron gone I'm not sure we can continue to win that way.

    I mean would you trust you job to our player's decision making ablities?
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Question for everyone... why do yall hate Kravitz so much?

    Of course he was biased about the entire Artest situation... but that's his opinion.

    I read these boards, and the Indy Star boards.. and all I see is people trashing him. He's actually a good writer to be honest.

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by NaptownBound
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    Question for everyone... why do yall hate Kravitz so much?

    Of course he was biased about the entire Artest situation... but that's his opinion.

    I read these boards, and the Indy Star boards.. and all I see is people trashing him. He's actually a good writer to be honest.
    You really think so?

    I seriously don't think there is any sport he could have an intelligent conversation about, past throwing out platitudes he parrots from others. Maybe he knows hockey, but I wouldn't know, because I certainly don't know jack about that.
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    You really think so?

    I seriously don't think there is any sport he could have an intelligent conversation about, past throwing out platitudes he parrots from others. Maybe he knows hockey, but I wouldn't know, because I certainly don't know jack about that.
    I think he could have a intelligent convo about sports... i mean he's around sports figures all the time. one would hope he would know something about the sports world. again... i think people trash him because they don't agree with his opinion, so they call him a bad writer. just because he doesn't write what you want to hear or agree with your point of view doesn't necessarily mean he's a bad writer.

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by NaptownBound
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    Question for everyone... why do yall hate Kravitz so much?
    Why do I intensely dislike him with every fiber of my soul? Because he almost makes me wish for the "good ol' days" when Robin Miller still worked for The Star.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by grace
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    Why do I intensely dislike him with every fiber of my soul? Because he almost makes me wish for the "good ol' days" when Robin Miller still worked for The Star.
    Ever since Gannett took over at the Star, there's been problems. In the days of Bob Collins, I'd bet he would have given Kravitz a one way bus pass out of town.

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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacesetter
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    Ever since Gannett took over at the Star, there's been problems. In the days of Bob Collins, I'd bet he would have given Kravitz a one way bus pass out of town.
    The Star also shut down the evening paper...The News. So unless you wanna read Nuvo, they have no competition in Indy.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacesetter
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    Ever since Gannett took over at the Star, there's been problems. In the days of Bob Collins, I'd bet he would have given Kravitz a one way bus pass out of town.
    Bob Collins. God, I miss that man!

    As for Indy only having one newspaper (I refuse to consider that Nuvo is actually a serious newsgathering entity). I get very irritated when people still call Indianapolis "Naptown". Well, I've decided that since we still only have one friggin' poor excuse for a newspaper then I guess maybe we haven't come as far as I'd like to think.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by grace
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    I get very irritated when people still call Indianapolis "Naptown".
    What's wrong with saying Naptown? Seriously.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by grace
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    Why do I intensely dislike him with every fiber of my soul? Because he almost makes me wish for the "good ol' days" when Robin Miller still worked for The Star.
    however, that still isn't an explanation of why you dislike Kravitz. you have provided no argument to his writing style at all.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    This thread was laugh-out-loud funny thanks to LA, btown and Arcadian with their creative use of quote credits.

    Two things, btown:

    - LA is right. You've obviously never been to San Jose. What a God awful place. I shudder now as I think back on my 3 days there.

    - Smog does suck, but it's getting better because they keep tightening emissions controls here. Los Angelinos may be flakey, but we are also incredibly progressive. I still can't believe they allow smoking in bars in Indy.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    - He said, "I guess I can say this now, but Larry told me personally after the 2004 ECF that he wanted to trade Ron for Peja. He felt that they'd dodged the bullet so far, and his trade value would never be higher." has alluded to this many times, but now he's finally gone on the record. Do we believe him?
    Yes. Ron was offered to the Kings for Peja twice that summer. Once right after the ECFs and again in late August. The Kings wouldn't play ball.

  25. #25

    Default Re: Kravitz admits he was wrong, and Peck did you read these comments from DW

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    This thread was laugh-out-loud funny thanks to LA, btown and Arcadian with their creative use of quote credits.

    Two things, btown:

    - LA is right. You've obviously never been to San Jose. What a God awful place. I shudder now as I think back on my 3 days there.

    - Smog does suck, but it's getting better because they keep tightening emissions controls here. Los Angelinos may be flakey, but we are also incredibly progressive. I still can't believe they allow smoking in bars in Indy.
    I agree with both points. I have been to San Jose, and would rather continue to live in Northern Virginia than live there.

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