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Thread: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

  1. #1
    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    Default I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    AJ, Sarunas, and Tinsley (if he remains healthy) have to share minutes. Playing Sarunas at the 2 obviously isn't working. AJ is playing well. Tinsley is our best pg. They can't all stay... I think AJ has earned some trade value... or is Tinsley seeing his Pacers days coming to an end?

    We all know Sarunas isn't going anywhere (right?). Does anybody else see thing possibly getting more interesting at that position?

  2. #2
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    AJ, Sarunas, and Tinsley (if he remains healthy) have to share minutes. Playing Sarunas at the 2 obviously isn't working. AJ is playing well. Tinsley is our best pg. They can't all stay... I think AJ has earned some trade value... or is Tinsley seeing his Pacers days coming to an end?

    We all know Sarunas isn't going anywhere (right?). Does anybody else see thing possibly getting more interesting at that position?
    Absolutely.

    Unfortunately, all bets are off until the Ron trade is completed. If that's not until next season, then that's how long before the PG issue is settled.

    But don't worry. It's only until Tinsley gets injured again.
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Saras should of went to Cleveland.

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    Harmonica
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireball Kid
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    Saras should of went to Cleveland.
    A couple of things: 1.) Donnie and Larry aren't meddlers and are going to let Rick do his job without interference. That said, it has to be frustrating to Larry that he spent months in Europe following Saras, only to have Rick play him out of position. 2.) At the same time, how do you build a players' trade value? A part of me thinks that AJ will be on the block.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    2.) At the same time, how do you build a players' trade value?
    You play him and showcase him... but Tinsley is so damned fragile that they can't do it...

    Oh wait... you think they are showcasing AJ so that they can be left with the always injured Tinsley...

    Hmmm....

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    AJ, Sarunas, and Tinsley (if he remains healthy) have to share minutes. Playing Sarunas at the 2 obviously isn't working. AJ is playing well. Tinsley is our best pg. They can't all stay... I think AJ has earned some trade value... or is Tinsley seeing his Pacers days coming to an end?

    We all know Sarunas isn't going anywhere (right?). Does anybody else see thing possibly getting more interesting at that position?
    Welcome to "halfway land" where we prod along, making halfway moves, and then refuse to complete the deal. There's no way Bird chased Saras all over the other side of the globe to get a 4th PG on this team.

    And no, he didn't get him to be a SG either.

    There had to be another move planned. But they were slow to the trigger. Was it AJ being shipped out? Was it Tinsley? Did they gamble Tinsley wouldn't get injured before they traded him? Did they ignore the obvious and think Tinsley would be healthy this year and they could trade AJ?

    Was there an Artest plus PG package being shopped? A PG and [insert player here] and Artest screwed it up (when he moved to the front burner)? The problem with those scenarios is there was plenty of time to pull it off before Artest went Artest.

    Did they go to all this trouble and expense to get Saras and then get cold feet about turning him loose?

    Whatever the deal... I bet you 'patience' has played a factor in our having a mess at PG.

    And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

    We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

    -Bball
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  7. #7
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.
    Truth.

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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Did they go to all this trouble and expense to get Saras and then get cold feet about turning him loose?

    Whatever the deal... I bet you 'patience' has played a factor in our having a mess at PG.

    And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

    We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

    -Bball

    Aggreed!
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    [/QUOTE]And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

    We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

    -Bball[/QUOTE]

    I agree with this. Saras is not being given a fair chance to show what he can do. I really want to see what he has on a consistant basis without having to look over his shoulder all the time.

    Its really getting me

  10. #10
    All is full of Orange! Mourning's Avatar
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

    We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

    -Bball[/QUOTE]

    I agree with this. Saras is not being given a fair chance to show what he can do. I really want to see what he has on a consistant basis without having to look over his shoulder all the time.

    Its really getting me [/QUOTE]

    Same here.
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Completely agree. I was sooo looking forward to seeing Saras run this team. But then again, is it ever possible for Rick to hand him the keys and say..."Go win"? IMO RC is waaaaaay too much of a micromanager to ever even attempt that.
    Did I read somewhere that Saras has a player option after this year?
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    I think it goes without saying I agree with Harmonica, Bball, et al.

    The idea of Sarunas at 2 is a nice theory, but what you end up with is him getting less touches, when he's at his best with the ball in his hands, you get him being guarded by a larger 2-guard, and he's a guy who mainly stays on the perimeter and would have to shoot over the guy, and he's left guarding a 6'5" or bigger guy on the other end, when he struggles with smaller PGs.

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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    I think it goes without saying I agree with Harmonica, Bball, et al.

    The idea of Sarunas at 2 is a nice theory, but what you end up with is him getting less touches, when he's at his best with the ball in his hands, you get him being guarded by a larger 2-guard, and he's a guy who mainly stays on the perimeter and would have to shoot over the guy, and he's left guarding a 6'5" or bigger guy on the other end, when he struggles with smaller PGs.
    And gets attacked for "bad defense" consequently .

    Sure, he isn't a good defender at all, but rightnow this situation is making him look worse then he is.

    Regards,

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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.
    I think this is the correct way to go. Let him try to lead the team. If it works out, great. If not, back to the bench he goes. I think that it would work. He needs time to impact the game, and he is not getting enough of it.

  15. #15
    Jerry_McGuire
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Welcome to "halfway land" where we prod along, making halfway moves, and then refuse to complete the deal. There's no way Bird chased Saras all over the other side of the globe to get a 4th PG on this team.

    And no, he didn't get him to be a SG either.

    There had to be another move planned. But they were slow to the trigger. Was it AJ being shipped out? Was it Tinsley? Did they gamble Tinsley wouldn't get injured before they traded him? Did they ignore the obvious and think Tinsley would be healthy this year and they could trade AJ?

    Was there an Artest plus PG package being shopped? A PG and [insert player here] and Artest screwed it up (when he moved to the front burner)? The problem with those scenarios is there was plenty of time to pull it off before Artest went Artest.

    Did they go to all this trouble and expense to get Saras and then get cold feet about turning him loose?

    Whatever the deal... I bet you 'patience' has played a factor in our having a mess at PG.

    And I agree with Harmonica... Bird has to be disappointed to see Saras show real flashes but not really get used in his best role. And I still think that role is starting. IE: Hand him the keys to the team and tell him to "win". Let him lead... let him play important minutes... and let him play consistent minutes at PG. And if he falls on his face, at least we jumped in with both feet. There's a lot more of a track record with Saras than some players we've gambled on.

    We didn't get him to be a second rate SG.

    -Bball
    Nice insight, man!
    Respect

    three months have already passed, and Saras didnt have a fair chance
    to prove himself with position he's best at, coach's trust and attitude for
    that, and reasonable rotation.

    I said it once, and I will repeat myselft, that what can be seen clearly
    now is some agonized team chemistry formula search right now. And this
    search would probably continue until the end of the season, with below
    average results. In given situation team coaches and management have a
    very complex puzzle they have to figure out, with rotation, players and
    attitude issues. Slight measures dont help in this situation.

    How can Pacers coach require consistency, if the rotation itself is far off
    to consistent. What they need - is to make strong decisions, and giving
    the patience to themselves to see how this decision proves. You can't tell
    decision was wrong or right if you change it on daily basis.


    So here's what I imply concerning PG spot - give Saras a real chance,
    and go to outcomes after that. If it requires roster change (trading Tins
    and/or AJ - to another good PG) - make a strong decision and do that. If
    it doesn't help - the team wont lose too much anyways. Pacers already
    know what AJ and Tins can contribute or lead to... And buying Saras was
    a move to improve that. So in any way - Pacers need something new
    in PG spot right now! So I say - get some new PG player, and give Saras a
    chance for the time.

  16. #16
    Lithfan
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Finally some hoosiers are telling what us europeans being yelling all the time. Give the guy some credit and let him play for real. He already proved that you can try that: best +- on team, good stats for 20 min play, improved D.

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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    Playing Sarunas at the 2 obviously isn't working.
    I hate how people dont understand that you CANT have 3 players averaging 20 ppg! If u judge him by his PPG i mean, because its only there Sarunas has failed to proof himself on both Positions, even tho he can do it. Its physicaly impossible unless they all start and have that chemistry and share the ball only between them in at least 40 mpg! One example is if you watch the All-star games and Dream Team games... Those who averaged 20 - 30 ppg in NBA suddenly all average like 10 points a piece?

    Even tho Saras is a Rookie, dont u think Sarunas can score 20 ppg? Dont u see that he is doing as Coach says and remains a 4th scoring option when he is in there with Jermaine and Jax etc.? Have u seen Sarunas numbers at the end of games? 4-6 FGs, 1-2 3PTs, 2-2 FTs... think now, what would happen if he would fire more shots? Yes, he would be the All-Star in this team and he would Decrease mister "all-star" Jermaines points to about 13 ppg and Jax points in average 10 ppg. Suddenly the best players in your team are "Bad"? No! Basketball is like that! Its coaches/tactics decision to choose your Scorers after the teams system... lets just call it finding a way to win! "the teori of winning or losing"

  18. #18
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    At this point I just want a point guard who can play defense. Please

  19. #19
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    I am getting tired quickly of this Saras nonsense, now he has to take more shots then JO to be the top scorer / topdog on this team?

    Can we get real?

    A: he can not get the ball upfield, he gets his pockets picked as soon as somedefender spends time on him,
    B: he only gets his (few) shots of because he takes to few to warrant attention, once he gets the attention of the defense he will not get his shot of, see his starts at SG.
    C: his defense is not nearly enough for NBA standards.

    If someone of TPTB decides it's time to trade Tins then it will be for a PG with starting quality, sorry Saras is not that PG, a decent backup yes, perhaps even a good backup, but not starting material, and I know he's a rookie, but he's a 29 yr old experienced rookie at the physical peak of his ability, progress can be made in "team-defense" but not in ball handling skills, he's handled the ball for so many years
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  20. #20
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    You do aggree that Sarunas when playing SG also has to face a different defender at that position? And usually a taller one at that, so taking a lot of shots when your PG is about the same height (so the opponents tallest guard, usually the SG, would defend Saruas), becomes very risky in my opinion (blocked shots), certainly when you take into account that Sarunas isn't the fastest player around.

    I want him either starting or backing up at PG. I do not want to see him for extended periods of time at SG, let stand starting him there.

    Rightnow, I would be fine with giving the first 4/5 minutes of the game to AJ at PG, then bring in Sarunas at PG and see how he does the rest of the quarter, let him be replaced by Tinsley, so he can slowly come back instead of increasing the risk of rushing him into a new injury with lots of minutes. Then bring in Sarunas again for Tins, unless he's totally off then bring in AJ.
    But, I'm all for giving Sarunas a 30-38 minutes a game chance for atleast 3 games. We have to know what he can do in extended minutes.

    Switch AJ to SG if the opposing backcourt isn't too tall, so he can back up Freddie there, while Stephen and Danny share the SF spot.

    Regards,

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    What makes you think that he can show more in 35 minutes that he can not show in 25 minutes? To me that is a completely bizar thought.

    The "mistake" last night had nothing to do with Tins starting, even limpy he's the best of the lot we have, but with Jax at the 3, it simply does not work.
    AJ at the 2 Jax at the 3 is asking for problems, we got them.

    We are to thin atm at the 3, but starting Danny with Jax at the two is a better way (IMO) you then have 3 good and 2 decent defenders on the floor and all positions can score.

    It also leaves a better rotation as we've seen in earlier games. (Saras for Tins, Fred, AJ, Cro, Foster, in another given order depending on matchups/fouls etc.)
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Member NPFII's Avatar
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    What makes you think that he can show more in 35 minutes that he can not show in 25 minutes? To me that is a completely bizar thought.
    It's not the amount of minutes, it's the quality.

    When you come in the end of the 1st Q and play with the 2nd unit till the midway of the 2nd Q, and the same for the 3rd & 4th Q, you're playing the "fillers" game.
    No chemistry, no unity, no leadership, no pressure. Sure - it's minutes, but it's the "less important" minutes. All that said, still Saras plays them with passion and out of position.

    When you start games and finish them you have responsibility, leadership issues, pressure. Those are quality minutes, and those are the essence of playing basketball at the top level. It's also the best players playing, so if you're a guy like Saras who makes his teammates better - those are the minutes he should play and that's where he can affect the game MORE. Add to that his thriving-under-pressure quality and that's your answer.

    Bottom line - you haven't seen Saras play yet. Start him at PG for 10 games. Let him have the reigns, and after that say if you like it or not. That's what you brought him here for, isn't it? I'm truly disappointed in Carlisle for not doing this when Tinsley was hurt. It was an opportunity that he missed, and I can't understand why.

    I hope that everyone on the Pacers organization has realized this and AJ and Tinsley are just being showcased for the Artest trade (AJ for skill, Tinsley for durability). I don't want to think that Carlisle has given up on Saras like some of the people here have.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Saras definately did not make a good case for himself last night.

    Carlisle does not start people who can't play defense unless he has to.

    Saras was getting beat repeatedly off the dribble by Chicago's guards. That's why he wasn't able to play longer.

    That's not to say that Saras has a good game offensively (which he didn't) but defense comes first. If he didnt want to play defense, he shouldnt have signed to play under Rick Carlisle.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    At this point I just want a point guard who can play defense. Please
    Antonio Daniels isn't doing so hotin Washington....
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    Default Re: I smell a problem at the PG spot...

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    Antonio Daniels isn't doing so hotin Washington....
    Funny! That was exactly what I was thinking a few weeks ago too .
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