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Thread: A theory on chronicly injured players

  1. #26
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Strange...

    ....and I figured he was really injured... Al and Clark (or was it Quinn) were talking about him working out but not using that arm so I assumed nobody would run an elaborate ruse to that degree.

    I don't think anyone has ever mentioned where/when/how (in the game) he actually injured his arm... [grassy knoll] Maybe it's injured but it wasn't injured in the game at all???? Maybe he was doing something he shouldn't have (fighting, arm wrestling, dustpan waving, etc???) [/grassy knoll]

    -Bball
    Maybe his arm really is injured, but something just isn't right. No clue what it is, I'm kinda thinking out loud. Just too many weird situations
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  2. #27
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Tinsley is injury-prone, no doubt. But I don't think it has anything to do with his "uncontrolled style of play."
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  3. #28
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    Maybe his arm really is injured, but something just isn't right. No clue what it is, I'm kinda thinking out loud. Just too many weird situations
    If we can assume the intial report/diagnosis of a torn muscle was correct (and God knows we probably should never assume anything our medical staff or Star first reports is accurate) then the only thing I was skeptical of was the initial prognosis. Wasn't it like 5 days and they expected him back? Or was it 3 days? Or was it 3 games? In any case, that just seemed WAY too soon.

    -Bball
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem
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    Tinsley is injury-prone, no doubt. But I don't think it has anything to do with his "uncontrolled style of play."
    ^^^I disagree.....how many times have we seen Tinsley drive to the hoop.....run into a wall of Center/PFs bounce off of them and then end up on the floor holding his ankle?

    I have seen it at least twice......on tv and during one of the Warriors-Pacers game.

    He's good a driving to the hoop...cutting and slashing to make a basket.....the problem is that he somehow ends up injuring himself when he does this.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  5. #30
    Banned PacerMan's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    I remember Rip was featured in Men's health magazine, and he referred to his body as a sportscar. "You only get the most out of it if you give it premium fuel." He realizes his cardiovascular shape is the one physical advantage he has over every other guard, so he trains his body every day to keep it.
    That only works if you are lucky enough to have the structure to support intense, repetitive, over the top workouts.
    There are others that WOULD work as hard, but can't because their body betrays the efforts by breaking down from overwork.(structure, bones, ligaments, etc)

  6. #31
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    If we can assume the intial report/diagnosis of a torn muscle was correct (and God knows we probably should never assume anything our medical staff or Star first reports is accurate) then the only thing I was skeptical of was the initial prognosis. Wasn't it like 5 days and they expected him back? Or was it 3 days? Or was it 3 games? In any case, that just seemed WAY too soon.

    -Bball
    I'm already too far out onto the grassy knoll for my liking, so I'll keep it simple. I just think that maybe it isn't the medical staff's fault. Maybe Tins is a very odd case, for whatever reason.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  7. #32
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    I'm already too far out onto the grassy knoll for my liking, so I'll keep it simple. I just think that maybe it isn't the medical staff's fault. Maybe Tins is a very odd case, for whatever reason.
    Are you saying he faking the injury... or it's severity... because he's not happy about something?

    -Bball
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    How do you fake a torn bicep? That isnt like saying your tooth hurts. And what does Tinsley have to be mad about? He is starting and gets as many shots as he wants, and there isnt even no question about him starting. If Jamaal plays Jamaal starts thats just how it is. He is injury prone, he isnt faking injuries. The guy could barley walk against the Pistons and the Celtics in the playoffs, I doubt he would fake injuries.

  9. #34

    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    I'm a little surprised Tins' injuries haven't been attributed to God's judgment on him. There is no way God would like someone seen pouting in the Miami game.

    My honest opinion is becoming that Tins isn't that tough--his body can't hold up to the NBA rigors and/or he has a low thresshold for pain.
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    Are you saying he faking the injury... or it's severity... because he's not happy about something?

    -Bball


    I just think something is 'up,' we're not being told about something.

    Maybe it will be like last year, where all of a sudden we'll be informed that Tinsley is actually out until the end of the regular season. Or maybe not, this is mostly a gut feeling.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Don't forget, Tinsley = Somatization.

    Don't forget, don't ever forget.
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    God knows I'm all for calling out players when I think they could play through something.

    But in Tinsley's case I'm pretty sure I remember seeing Duncan hit him at the elbow & seeing Jamaal in pain.

    However as I've stated several times lately. I no longer care if he is injured or not, it has come to the point where he is nothing but a liability to our franchise & he needs to be moved on.

    I hate saying that because I like Jamaal.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  13. #38
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Jamaal is a long list of liablities to this franchise. You ever feel that
    one mistake only leads to another? Don't get me wrong no one could
    have predicted JT injuries but like (God forgive me) Kstat said he has
    never looked in shape. If Jamaal didn't get injuried so much do you
    think we would have signed 4 pg?

  14. #39
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    My last point is this:

    The Pistons going back to larry brown have been a passing-oriented offense. There is no isolation of one player going 1-on-1 and initiating contact. It's much more free-flowing, and typically ends up with a player taking an shot that doesnt involve getting hammered.

    Thats not true. I'd say 1/4 of Chuancey's points come off going 1-on-1 and driving to create contact (more when the team is struggling to score). Also, Rasheed is often isolated "when he has his mind right" on the low block to take his man 1-on-1 though its not "slashing to draw contact".

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble
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    Jamaal is a long list of liablities to this franchise. You ever feel that
    one mistake only leads to another?
    Don't get me wrong no one could
    have predicted JT injuries but like (God forgive me) Kstat said he has
    never looked in shape. If Jamaal didn't get injuried so much do you
    think we would have signed 4 pg?
    There was a reason that JO wanted Mercer, Artest, and Tinsley gone. I don't know what that reason was but obviously management didn't listen. That reason could've been JO was too full of himself... or it could've been valid reasons that we may or may not be able to guess. In any case, management did as per usual and continued forward as if nothing was wrong or would go away if ignored. JO was signed as the face of the franchise and only Mercer wasn't kept.

    Is it any question how a team built around that type of foundation would have chemistry issues?


    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  16. #41
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    I think the notion that players suffer injuries because they are not playing “smart” or playing with “reckless abandon” is a bunch of hooey. And I think that Detroit not having as many injuries at this time or that they play smarter than any team of the past 5-10 years is a bunch of BS as well.

    Players are not usually injured because of their mechanics or due to the fact that they are not taking a proper amount of caution. Players sustain major injuries for a variety of reasons:

    Playing with a minor injury that becomes major upon re-injury
    Not being in proper position (arriving late)
    Hard screens - lack of communication from teammates
    Landing /stepping on another players foot
    Loose balls / rebounds – unavoidable contact with another player
    Fouls on contested shots or while contesting for the ball

    I think most would recognize about Detroit is a good defensive team that rebounds well. Therefore, they probably have better communication than the average team to help avoid running into hard screens, they are obviously very good with defensive positioning and they are probably a little better at establishing rebounding position which would discourage opponents in some cases from contesting for rebounds, therefore avoiding some fouls and also landing on other players’ feet.

    If, as Kstat says, Detroit’s offense has evolved into a passing oriented offense, that would result in lesser contesting of mid-range and perimeter shots, resulting in fewer injuries from rushing defenders.

  17. #42
    Member rabid's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot
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    In four years with Brown, only two players lasted all 82 games. Mark Jackson twice and Antonio Davis twice. Of course most players rarely play all 82 games in a season injured or not.
    Games Missed by Key Players (over 10)
    '93-'94
    Dale Davis 16
    Byron Scott 15
    Pooh Richardson 45
    Haywoode Workman 17
    Vern Fleming 27
    '94-'95
    Antonio Davis 38
    Vern Fleming 27
    Haywood Workman 13
    '95-'96
    Rik Smits 19
    Eddie Johnson 20
    Travis Best 23
    '96-'97
    Rik Smits 30
    Derrick McKey 32
    Jalen Rose 16
    Haywood Workman 78
    Fred Hoiberg 35
    Under Bird
    '97-98
    Derrick Mckey 25
    Fred Hoiberg 17
    '98-'99 (50 games season)
    Derrick Mckey 37
    '99-'00
    Al Harrington 32
    Chris Mullin 35
    Derrick Mckey 50
    Under Zeke
    '00-'01
    Jalen Rose 10
    Sam Perkins 18
    Jeff Foster 11
    Jonathan Bender 23
    Derrick Mckey 16
    '01-'02
    Jermaine O'neal 10
    Al Harrington 38
    I think Ron Mercer missed a number of games too. I'm too lazy to do the math.
    '02-'03
    Ron Artest 13
    Reggie Miller 12
    Ron Mercer 10
    Jonathan Bender 36
    Erick Strickland 11
    Austin Croshere 33
    Under Rick
    '03-'04
    Jamal Tinsley 32
    Jonathan Bender 59
    Kenny Anderson 38
    Scot Pollard 16
    '04-'05
    Ron Artest 75
    Jermaine O'neal 38
    Stephen Jackson 31
    Jamal Tinsley 42
    Reggie Miller 16
    Anthony Johnson 19
    Jeff Foster 21
    David Harrison 37
    Jonathan Bender 75
    Scot Pollard 33

    Looks like more players missed due to injury under Larry Brown than any of the other coaches in the last ten years. If player age , suspensions , benchings(Tinsley/Anderson)and Bender are taken into consideration it looks like a wash really. Although last year , even if you take suspensions into conderation alot of games missed to injury.
    The problem with this is that those guys weren't always actually injured, but were just on the injured list. Until this year, you basically had 3 guys that had to be called "injured" whether they were or not. 3 guys per game, 82 games, so at least 246 "games missed because of injury" per year.

    Granted, a lot (if not most) of the injuries you're listing were real. But there's no real way to tell unless you're talking about starters missing games. For example, Rik Smits missing all those games was due to legit injury at least 90 percent of the time. On the other hand, I'm not so sure if Haywoode Workman was really hurt for all 78 games he missed in 96-97, or if Derrick McKey was really injured for over the half the games he was available for in his last 4 seasons in the league.

    So, no offense, but those stats are pretty much moot. On any given night, SOMEBODY had to be "injured," whether they actually were or not.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan
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    Granted, a lot (if not most) of the injuries you're listing were real. But there's no real way to tell unless you're talking about starters missing games. For example, Rik Smits missing all those games was due to legit injury at least 90 percent of the time. On the other hand, I'm not so sure if Haywoode Workman was really hurt for all 78 games he missed in 96-97, or if Derrick McKey was really injured for over the half the games he was available for in his last 4 seasons in the league.
    Why would the Pacers place their starting center on the injured reserve, if he wasn't actually injured. It doesn't make sense to do that.

    And didn't Woodie tear his ACL during the 96-97 season?

  19. #44
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Good point, I forgot about the ACL injury.

    But if you re-read my post, I said that obviously the STARTERS and/or "major" players were probably hurt for most (if not all) games they were out.

    But that list has guys like Erick Strickland, Ron Mercer, Fred Hoiberg, Jamaal Tinsley in 03-04 (when he was benched for practically a quarter of the season), Eddie Johnson etc. on them. Some of those guys were starters during certain periods, but these generally were not "crucial" guys and my gut tells me that a lot of those games were more like extended DNP-CDs than legitimate injuries.

    I also don't remember McKey being THAT injured for 4 straight years (yes he was hurt sometimes, but he also played a lot of "specialist" minutes, a la Scot Pollard).

    My whole point is that you can't just pull up the "games injured" from years past and expect those stats to be very accurate.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan
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    Good point, I forgot about the ACL injury.

    But if you re-read my post, I said that obviously the STARTERS and/or "major" players were probably hurt for most (if not all) games they were out.

    But that list has guys like Erick Strickland, Ron Mercer, Fred Hoiberg, Jamaal Tinsley in 03-04 (when he was benched for practically a quarter of the season), Eddie Johnson etc. on them. These were not usually "crucial" guys and my gut tells me that a lot of those games were more like extended DNP-CDs than legitimate injuries.

    I also don't remember McKey being THAT injured for 4 straight years (yes he was hurt sometimes, but he also played a lot of "specialist" minutes, a la Scot Pollard).

    My whole point is that you can't just pull up the "games injured" from years past and expect those stats to be very accurate.
    Actually you said 90% of the time, but I'll even forget the details.

    A team wouldn't place a major player on the IR even for one game, unless it had something to do with behavioral issues and I don't even see why they'd use the IR for that anyways.

    Why can't you use that stat to measure it? In 10yrs are you going think Bender really wasn't injured all this time, and just write it up to other situations?

    When does accurate info kick in? 4yrs? 3? Never?

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