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Thread: A theory on chronicly injured players

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    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
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    Default A theory on chronicly injured players

    A lot of people label players as injury prone, but that seems like a rather empty statement to me. Some people even go so far to say that injuries are just part of the game, well that is true...but only to a degree.

    This is an honest question....how many major injuries did the Pacers sustain during the Larry Brown era. I am curious.

    But here is a thought. When watching Jamaal Tinsley play basketball, he seems very out of control with his body. I mean everytime he drives for a lay-up it seems like there is a good chance he will land wrong and hurt himself.

    One time I saw him land on his ankle and he obviously sprained it, but then he did some crazy contorted roll that seemed to probably injure the already sprained ankle more.

    Watch the Detroit Pistons play and tell me how many times they do something overly flashy. These guys have a certain awareness about their bodies and I honestly think the only way one of their guys gets injured is if someone tries to take them out. These guys are too smart to get injured. No way will one of the Pistons not land right after a dunk/rebound. They are aware of their bodies.

    I mean Tinsley seems quite content with being injured and his style of play generally leads to injuries. The guy just doesn't know how to use his body or land properly. It's a certain awareness. I don't think it has a damn thing to do with conditioning.

    I think Jermaine to a degree, lacks awareness about his body and this is why he often has minor injuries through the season. I enjoy Jermaine's passion this year, i think his passion is unrivaled. Sure, i made the JO is the worst Pacer ever (out of anger, obviously)...but he wasn't playing well and his attitude was horrible for a while this year. And obviously in my book do be a worst pacer ever, you have to be a lot more than just a role player. But anyways, i dont want to derail the message im trying to convey here.

    There is nothing outrageously special about the conditioning of the Wallace Brothers and hell.... all of Detroit. I think somewhere along the line, they learned to play smart basketball, this means being aware of your body.

    I'd almost consider them a lock to win the finals this year, because none of their guys will get injured....and every other team probably will be dealing with banged up/injured players in the playoffs.

    Tinsley is not going to learn, he is a street baller. He gets satisfaction out of circus passes, circus dribbling, circus drives, circus layups. He seems least concerned with winning of all the Pacers, but of course he could just be a reserved/unexpressive person....i'm willing to accept that.

    My point is, players who are injured a lot have no one to blame but themselves. If I was a coach I would yank players for putting their bodies at risk.

    I don't watch the Pistons a lot so maybe Kstat can elaborate here, the few times I have seen them play....I RARELY see their players even get close to a situation where they might get injured.

    I think this type of mentality is vastly underrated in the NBA. Seems like under Carlisle we've been dealing with all sorts of injuries, but I don't remember many injuries back in the "old days" of course I wasn't very old back in the old days, thats why I asked the question about how many injuries we had under Larry Brown.

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    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    I think it has more to do with the pistons (A) not plying out of position banging against much stronger players, and (B) being a finesse team. They dont absorb as much contact as most other teams, because they all pass and shoot the ball so well. They expend much less effort than most teams per game.

    If you watch the Pistons play, they absorb less contact than any team in the NBA, bar none. Aside from turning an ankle (which Ben does quite a bit), they dont get involved in many collisions.

    I would disagree that there are two pistons that are outragously conditioned, Rip and Ben. Ben's a 6'8" center but he's chisled out of solid granite. He's not going to wear down physically, because he's in such awesome shape.

    Rip's the biggest health-nut in the NBA. He's got his own personal chef making him nothing but diet and energy food every night. He's insanely durable, even by NBA standards. He never drinks beer, eats cheeseburgers, or parties late after games.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    I thought it was just the fact that the Pistons are "the luckiest team in NBA history"?

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    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Damn Rip really is a Reggie Miller clone, I didn't know that about him...but it certainly makes sense.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
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    Damn Rip really is a Reggie Miller clone, I didn't know that about him...but it certainly makes sense.
    I remember Rip was featured in Men's health magazine, and he referred to his body as a sportscar. "You only get the most out of it if you give it premium fuel." He realizes his cardiovascular shape is the one physical advantage he has over every other guard, so he trains his body every day to keep it.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    I think it has more to do with the pistons (A) not plying out of position banging against much stronger players, and (B) being a finesse team. They dont absorb as much contact as most other teams, because they all pass and shoot the ball so well. They expend much less effort than most teams per game.

    If you watch the Pistons play, they absorb less contact than any team in the NBA, bar none. Aside from turning an ankle (which Ben does quite a bit), they dont get involved in many collisions.


    Do you really believe that. Seems like a looney theory to me.

    I don't consider the Pistons a finesse team at all.

    They just happen to have players who are not injury prone.

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    If the Pistons are finesse, it is the most physical kind of finesse there is.
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    My last point is this:

    The Pistons going back to larry brown have been a passing-oriented offense. There is no isolation of one player going 1-on-1 and initiating contact. It's much more free-flowing, and typically ends up with a player taking an shot that doesnt involve getting hammered.

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    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    I imagine playing small ball would cause excess wear on the body. Particularly 3's and 4's playing at 4 and 5, like Granger or JO. Granger seems like a pretty solid/chissled guy himself (wirey-strong), so he may (or not) be able to take it, but JO is someone who's body just can't seem to take that for a full season. There's no shame in it, it's simply how it is.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Do you really believe that. Seems like a looney theory to me.

    I don't consider the Pistons a finesse team at all.

    They just happen to have players who are not injury prone.
    That's the biggest misconception in the NBA, UB.

    The Pistons are either short or rail-thin at 4 of 5 NBA positions. Their most physically imposing player is their 6'8" center.

    The only Piston that can physically push around everybody else at his position is Billups.

    Everything they do is predacated on quickness. They beat other teams to the spot on defense, they dont hack people in the post, and they force other teams to beat them over the top.

    They also have a lot of length, which is effective at playing 2-3 feet off their men, and still bothering the shot without being physical.

    On offense, it's all motion and ball movement. They thrive on mid-range shooting, not in the paint.

    What do I have to support this? Two points:

    1. The Pistons are last in the NBA in fouls committed.

    2. The Pistons are 2nd in the NBA in layups allowed. They dont get physical at the rim. If they can't block it, they cut their losses and let it go.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    I dont think its style of play. Maybe some but by no means all of it.

    I dont know what the deal is with Jamaal. I dont see this out of controll thing that you seem to see. When he came into the league he was not in good condition and that can certainly lead to injuries. But he has improved his conditioning a lot over the last couple of years. Maybe he should go back to cheesburgers and beer.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Tinsley always looks out-of-shape to me. Dunno why.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    In four years with Brown, only two players lasted all 82 games. Mark Jackson twice and Antonio Davis twice. Of course most players rarely play all 82 games in a season injured or not.
    Games Missed by Key Players (over 10)
    '93-'94
    Dale Davis 16
    Byron Scott 15
    Pooh Richardson 45
    Haywoode Workman 17
    Vern Fleming 27
    '94-'95
    Antonio Davis 38
    Vern Fleming 27
    Haywood Workman 13
    '95-'96
    Rik Smits 19
    Eddie Johnson 20
    Travis Best 23
    '96-'97
    Rik Smits 30
    Derrick McKey 32
    Jalen Rose 16
    Haywood Workman 78
    Fred Hoiberg 35
    Under Bird
    '97-98
    Derrick Mckey 25
    Fred Hoiberg 17
    '98-'99 (50 games season)
    Derrick Mckey 37
    '99-'00
    Al Harrington 32
    Chris Mullin 35
    Derrick Mckey 50
    Under Zeke
    '00-'01
    Jalen Rose 10
    Sam Perkins 18
    Jeff Foster 11
    Jonathan Bender 23
    Derrick Mckey 16
    '01-'02
    Jermaine O'neal 10
    Al Harrington 38
    I think Ron Mercer missed a number of games too. I'm too lazy to do the math.
    '02-'03
    Ron Artest 13
    Reggie Miller 12
    Ron Mercer 10
    Jonathan Bender 36
    Erick Strickland 11
    Austin Croshere 33
    Under Rick
    '03-'04
    Jamal Tinsley 32
    Jonathan Bender 59
    Kenny Anderson 38
    Scot Pollard 16
    '04-'05
    Ron Artest 75
    Jermaine O'neal 38
    Stephen Jackson 31
    Jamal Tinsley 42
    Reggie Miller 16
    Anthony Johnson 19
    Jeff Foster 21
    David Harrison 37
    Jonathan Bender 75
    Scot Pollard 33

    Looks like more players missed due to injury under Larry Brown than any of the other coaches in the last ten years. If player age , suspensions , benchings(Tinsley/Anderson)and Bender are taken into consideration it looks like a wash really. Although last year , even if you take suspensions into conderation alot of games missed to injury.

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    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Ok i didn't know, good work on finding those stats.

    UB i already stated how empty of a statement "injury prone" is. Just saying the Pistons aren't Injury Prone basically means absolutely nothing.

    And most layups allowed is HUGE and only further proves my theory true. thanks kstat

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Now, don't you know, it's all David Craig's fault. Can't you tell, we've been so much better this year with Hicks' little brother as our trainer.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    My little brother? Is that the new fun knickname now that my "girlfriend" is long gone?

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    My little brother? Is that the new fun knickname now that my "girlfriend" is long gone?
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Slightly OT, but I heard a story that in High School Rip made a deal with his track coach that if had won his races every meet he never had to come to practice, is that true?
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  19. #19
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Looking at most injury prone players it would be the slasher or the
    big man with bad feet that would get hurt alot. The Pistons don't
    typically slash unless its the oversized billups but Rip is always
    running off the screen.

    Tinsley gets hurt because he can not play
    smart long enough. The show-man-ship gets him blasted more than
    anything. There is also a very good chance you are going to get
    hurt the more you jump for the rebound and land on someones foot.
    I haven't seen many of Bens twisted ankles but i bet its because
    he has to jump a foot higher than everyone else.

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    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    you guys love ignoring the obvious.

    The pistons (this year) play smarter basketball that any team in the past 5-10 years. Part of that involves avoiding injury. Jamaal Tinsley isn't smart enough to play like that, we need to get him out of here if we plan on ever making it to the finals anytime soon.

    The only point i was making seemed quite obvious, i was just wanting more input. I say chronically injured players are normally chronically injured due to the way they play the game.

    Except for back problems, those are a different story.

    But with Tinsley its always his ankles...or his bicep recently.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
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    you guys love ignoring the obvious.

    The pistons (this year) play smarter basketball that any team in the past 5-10 years. Part of that involves avoiding injury. Jamaal Tinsley isn't smart enough to play like that, we need to get him out of here if we plan on ever making it to the finals anytime soon.

    The only point i was making seemed quite obvious, i was just wanting more input. I say chronically injured players are normally chronically injured due to the way they play the game.

    Except for back problems, those are a different story.

    But with Tinsley its always his ankles...or his bicep recently.
    I think, at least in terms of Tinsley, you are onto something.

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    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Do we know exactly WHEN Tinsley hurt his arm and what he was doing.

    This could be evidence.

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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
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    Do we know exactly WHEN Tinsley hurt his arm and what he was doing.
    ...Reaching for a chicken tender after the game...


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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
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    Do we know exactly WHEN Tinsley hurt his arm and what he was doing.

    This could be evidence.
    I'm starting to wonder if his arm is even injured.

    The 'oops!' diagnosis last year. The possibilty of hemmoroids the other year? Harmonica insisting that there was something to the Sinuspoutitis. The recent whispers of some kind of somatoform happening.

    Going into full Bball mode here, I'm almost inclined to finally agree with him about Tinsley, at least partially.


    I'm not going to draw any conclusions just yet, but something is not right.
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    Default Re: A theory on chronicly injured players

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood
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    I'm starting to wonder if his arm is even injured.

    The 'oops!' diagnosis last year. The possibilty of hemmoroids the other year? Harmonica insisting that there was something to the Sinuspoutitis. The recent whispers of some kind of somatoform happening.

    Going into full Bball mode here, I'm almost inclined to finally agree with him about Tinsley, at least partially.


    I'm not going to draw any conclusions just yet, but something is not right.
    Strange...

    ....and I figured he was really injured... Al and Clark (or was it Quinn) were talking about him working out but not using that arm so I assumed nobody would run an elaborate ruse to that degree.

    I don't think anyone has ever mentioned where/when/how (in the game) he actually injured his arm... [grassy knoll] Maybe it's injured but it wasn't injured in the game at all???? Maybe he was doing something he shouldn't have (fighting, arm wrestling, dustpan waving, etc???) [/grassy knoll]

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    -John Wooden

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