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Thread: HMMM

  1. #1
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default HMMM

    I'm relatively new to this forum and should probably just keep my mouth shut but....
    I have opinions , too.

    Ron Artest certainly screwed up big time last year. He was suspended by the league for entering the stands and fighting. Whether the suspension was warranted or not is debatable. After last season, I think everyone agreed we needed this guy to compete. This year is kind of perplexing. He stabbed the team in the back , so to speak , by requesting a trade. The team then suspends him , ultimately for the rest of the season. Many players in the past , including Pacers , have asked to be traded. I can't remember any of them being suspended. I know "this is the last straw" , "he's a cancer" and so on and so forth. I can't help but think suspending him hurts the team in various ways. It removes one of our best players from the equation. It has apparently reduced his trade value. A storm of controversy has hovered around the team for the last month and half. Originally, it appeared to divide the locker room in some ways. The team had to acclimate itself to life w/o Ron and if and when a trade occurs will have to do the same again. I can't help but wonder if suspending the guy was the correct approach.
    The Trade still looms. I've been completly unimpressed with nearly all of the trade rumors. Defensive players , injured players , overpaid players , trades involving too many players , players who put up decent numbers on really bad teams(look no futher than Tony Campbell of the expansion T-Wolves or Brezec of the Bobcats) or in some cases trades that make no sense for some of the teams involved.
    Jamal Tinsley takes a beating on these boards. He's the best point guard on the Pacers. He doesn't turn the ball over too much. He has had the injury bug the last two years. He can score and create his own shot. His 3pt% has steadily risen throughout his career. The offense flows much better when he mans the 1 spot. The stats back up his t/o's %'s etc...Mel Mel's assist to turnover ratio (2.44 to 1)is favorable compared to Tony Parker's(2.19 to 1), Chauncey Billup's(2.42 to 1) and even Isiah Thomas'(2.46 to 1). He has 3 or more steals in 7 of the 19 games he's played this year. His scoring average has risen when other players go down and he hasn't shown any resentment to losing those shots when thay come back.
    Stephen Jackson ,although certainly a thug , has played pretty damn well as a Pacer. 17.6 ppg .364 3pt% aren't bad numbers from your 2 guard. His shooting percentage has been questioned this year . He's shooting .434 from the field. Unfortunately, that isn't really considered too bad in todays NBA. Ray Allen(.430),Kobe Bryant(.444),Michael Finley(.395) and Sarunas Jasikevivius(.419) aren't shooting any better than Jack. Not to mention, since the latest injuries he's kept this team afloat with the help of Freddie "The Duck" Jones. His 2.34 turnovers a game aren't really that high either.
    Sarunas Jasikevicius isn't that great. He should not be the starting point guard. I'm not even sure he should be the 2nd stringer at this point. .419 from the field? 1.34 to 1 t/o ratio? There was a time when Pacers.com asked " Who is the most clutch Pacer?" and like 70 some percent of the respondents said this guy. Who after less than half a season , is showing me why it took him so long to get to the NBA. He's remarkably slow , makes just as many errant passes as the others who are berated on this board and the other one (indystar board) and he's shown he's almost completely unable to play out of position. Our other point guards can all continue to contibute from the two guard , but this guy falls off the face of the earth.
    JO's leadership skills, Rick Carlisle and coaching & the rest of the team will have to wait until later installments.

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    Default Re: HMMM

    You should only keep your mouth shut when chewing.

    Welcome to PD & speak up as offen as you can.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot
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    I'm relatively new to this forum and should probably just keep my mouth shut but....
    I have opinions , too.

    Ron Artest certainly screwed up big time last year. He was suspended by the league for entering the stands and fighting. Whether the suspension was warranted or not is debatable. After last season, I think everyone agreed we needed this guy to compete. This year is kind of perplexing. He stabbed the team in the back , so to speak , by requesting a trade. The team then suspends him , ultimately for the rest of the season. Many players in the past , including Pacers , have asked to be traded. I can't remember any of them being suspended. I know "this is the last straw" , "he's a cancer" and so on and so forth. I can't help but think suspending him hurts the team in various ways. It removes one of our best players from the equation. It has apparently reduced his trade value. A storm of controversy has hovered around the team for the last month and half. Originally, it appeared to divide the locker room in some ways. The team had to acclimate itself to life w/o Ron and if and when a trade occurs will have to do the same again. I can't help but wonder if suspending the guy was the correct approach.
    The Trade still looms. I've been completly unimpressed with nearly all of the trade rumors. Defensive players , injured players , overpaid players , trades involving too many players , players who put up decent numbers on really bad teams(look no futher than Tony Campbell of the expansion T-Wolves or Brezec of the Bobcats) or in some cases trades that make no sense for some of the teams involved.
    Jamal Tinsley takes a beating on these boards. He's the best point guard on the Pacers. He doesn't turn the ball over too much. He has had the injury bug the last two years. He can score and create his own shot. His 3pt% has steadily risen throughout his career. The offense flows much better when he mans the 1 spot. The stats back up his t/o's %'s etc...Mel Mel's assist to turnover ratio (2.44 to 1)is favorable compared to Tony Parker's(2.19 to 1), Chauncey Billup's(2.42 to 1) and even Isiah Thomas'(2.46 to 1). He has 3 or more steals in 7 of the 19 games he's played this year. His scoring average has risen when other players go down and he hasn't shown any resentment to losing those shots when thay come back.
    Stephen Jackson ,although certainly a thug , has played pretty damn well as a Pacer. 17.6 ppg .364 3pt% aren't bad numbers from your 2 guard. His shooting percentage has been questioned this year . He's shooting .434 from the field. Unfortunately, that isn't really considered too bad in todays NBA. Ray Allen(.430),Kobe Bryant(.444),Michael Finley(.395) and Sarunas Jasikevivius(.419) aren't shooting any better than Jack. Not to mention, since the latest injuries he's kept this team afloat with the help of Freddie "The Duck" Jones. His 2.34 turnovers a game aren't really that high either.
    Sarunas Jasikevicius isn't that great. He should not be the starting point guard. I'm not even sure he should be the 2nd stringer at this point. .419 from the field? 1.34 to 1 t/o ratio? There was a time when Pacers.com asked " Who is the most clutch Pacer?" and like 70 some percent of the respondents said this guy. Who after less than half a season , is showing me why it took him so long to get to the NBA. He's remarkably slow , makes just as many errant passes as the others who are berated on this board and the other one (indystar board) and he's shown he's almost completely unable to play out of position. Our other point guards can all continue to contibute from the two guard , but this guy falls off the face of the earth.
    JO's leadership skills, Rick Carlisle and coaching & the rest of the team will have to wait until later installments.

    Welcome aboard Dr. Goldfoot,

    I don't think anybody really questions Tinsleys basketball skills it's other parts of his game such as his mental toughness and ability to stay on the court that drive us crazy.I don't care how good a certain player is but if he misses more then half of his games every season what good is he.It hurts from a chemistry point of view and it hurts from a productivity point of view as well when you have backup pgs playing 35 minutes a night and you expect to be a contender.

    As far as Steven Jackson goes, he plays well when he's given shots, the problem with him is I don't believe he's good enough as a second option to get us very far and though he has the talent to be a tremendous 3rd option he just doesn't fit well in that role. Jackson is one of these guys who needs the ball in his hands, when he's not touching the ball enough he starts settling for long jumpers instead of posting up and slashing to the basket, forces bad shots and seems to lose his concentration on the defensive end. This is the main reason why I view him as expendable I just don't view him as a long term fit and I could easily see him being packaged possibly with Tinsley in the future.

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    Follow me no more....... Fireball Kid's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot
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    Sarunas Jasikevicius isn't that great. He should not be the starting point guard. I'm not even sure he should be the 2nd stringer at this point. .419 from the field? 1.34 to 1 t/o ratio? There was a time when Pacers.com asked " Who is the most clutch Pacer?" and like 70 some percent of the respondents said this guy. Who after less than half a season , is showing me why it took him so long to get to the NBA. He's remarkably slow , makes just as many errant passes as the others who are berated on this board and the other one (indystar board) and he's shown he's almost completely unable to play out of position. Our other point guards can all continue to contibute from the two guard , but this guy falls off the face of the earth.
    JO's leadership skills, Rick Carlisle and coaching & the rest of the team will have to wait until later installments.
    So your saying Eddie Gill should be our 2nd string point guard? Is that what your saying? Am I misreading that???

  5. #5
    Member Pingu's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Sarunas Jasikevicius is a rookie

  6. #6

    Default Re: HMMM

    Welcome Dr. Goldfoot,

    I think, any non-offending opinion is welcome here. But Your analysis, let's say... isn't complete. It's very one-sided - while praising (only) some guys and degrading (only) other. For example You are praising Tins on his risen 3pt% (0.31), but You are degrading Saras shooting at the same time, although he shoots 9% better (3pt%), not to mention FT shooting (~35% better).

    Reading Your arguments makes me think that Sarunas is a very bad PG and all other PG's are far better (coz he do not do anything right). I thought to bring some arguments, but on the other hand this theme (about Saras limitations and what he brings to the team) is exhausted in numerous discussions.
    I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

  7. #7

    Default Re: HMMM

    In regards to your tinsley comments, does the amount of games tins has missed compare favourable with those who you say his asset/turnover ratio is favourable?

    Nice to hear your views though

  8. #8
    Member NPFII's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by Pingu
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    Sarunas Jasikevicius is a rookie
    Exactly!!

    Saras in his rookie year, so far (35 games, started 13):
    MPG - 24.0
    PPG - 9.1
    RPG - 2.5
    APG - 3.1
    TO - 1.8

    Do you know what Manu Ginobili's numbers were like in his rookie year (60 games, started 5)?

    MPG - 20.7
    PPG - 7.6
    RPG - 2.4
    APG - 2.0
    TO - 1.4

    His defense was "questionable", he made lots of mistakes, he shot so-so from the field, and was considered by many a bust.

    Manu turned out to be the finals MVP last year, when Pop learned how to use him right. He could've been a solid backup to ... SJax till this day if Pop hadn't seen the light. He still has a bad ast/to ratio, but man when the games get big so does he.


    Saras is a Ginobili-type player with his skill, passion & knack for big games. PG takes longer to adjust, and he's 5 years older than Manu was in his rookie year. Nevertheless, the day will come when people will say - "Tinsley was ok, but injured all the time. Not until Saras came to his own did we win the championship..."

    Saras needs to finish this year as the backup-pg (either behind Tinsley or AJ), and be given the keys next year. Come on people - don't tell me you cant see the light.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: HMMM

    [QUOTE=Dr. Goldfoot]I'm relatively new to this forum and should probably just keep my mouth shut but....
    I have opinions , too.

    Ron Artest I can't help but think suspending him hurts the team in various ways. . I can't help but wonder if suspending the guy was the correct approach.
    -------------

    Welcome Dr. Goldfoot,

    I agree with everything you said about Ron. Personally I was amazed at peoples reactions to Ron's trade me statement, because it didn't bother me a bit. I'm of the mindset that what Ron says doesn't mean anything because he will soon say the opposite.

    One of the problems with Ron is people want to treat him like everyone else, when Ron is clearly not like everyone else. (The following is just an example) He's like a Down syndrome child being compared to regular children. You treat them like other children as much as you can, but there is a point where you have to treat them different.

    Donnie knows Ron is different so his policy should have been to fine Ron and dock him a couple games, and tell Ron, "I'll trade you when I want to trade you."

    However, in this particular case it's clearly just like a divorce. The offended party has just had enough.

    ------------------
    Jamal Tinsley takes a beating on these boards. He's the best point guard on the Pacers.
    ------------------
    Not so for the last ten games. Which is the main problem.

    ------------------
    Stephen Jackson ,although certainly a thug , has played pretty damn well as a Pacer.
    ------------------
    Stephen is a lot of things but a thug he is not.

    -----------------
    Sarunas Jasikevicius isn't that great. He should not be the starting point guard.
    ----------------
    He isn't, he's a rookie.

  10. #10
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Unless Saras grows new hands, he will not become the starter for this team.
    He will perhaps be an energizing bunny of the bench, but not the starter, that much I have seen.
    There is a difference between a rook and Saras, rooks still have to learn a lot about the game, improve their skills for which they have a foundation, Saras is at his high, he will improve in a sense that he gets used to the NBA, but that for the most part will be it.

    He simply does not have the "handle" and that is something he wont learn anymore either, if you can learn it to begin with.

    Great backup, perhaps one of the best, but no more then that.

    Tins will need to get healthy and stay that way to have a future in this game, however if he succeeds in that, he will be one of the very good pg's for as far as he not already is.

    Now one thing about his injuries; I am pretty sure that the last two, his foot last year and biceps this year are "freak" injuries. Unlike weak knees, or weak ankles which are far more re-occurring, the biceps one ca nbe caused by being pulled on the arm rather hard while going up, finger in the wrong place and an "oops" is in place.
    The foot? one thing is sure; Pacers health staff was wrong on the initial diagnoses and that caused a whole lot more mysery then needed.

    Which is one thing I continually fear with this team and therefore am most hesitant to blame the players for, flue, synusitis (no matter how disabling it is) are things that the team doctors should prevent or solve, misdiagnosing injuries happens just once to often, fo the latest installment; JO; mild sprain - sprain - out for at least the next 2-3 games, now we can wait for the next announcement out for a month.

    Sometimes I get the feeling that they speak way before they know, or simply overlook things.

    As far as Tinsley goes, before we are putting him out with the bin, let's see what happens the rest of the year, good PG's are not that easy to come by as some of you seem to indicate and a same quality starting pg is not on the team
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    Unless Saras grows new hands, he will not become the starter for this team.
    I think you're wrong.
    A PG doesn't HAVE to be the best dribbler in the world. I think his handles are sufficient, and he's still on the learning curve of maximizing his abilities, without the need to learn new ones.

    In any case, to paraphrase your statement - unless JT grows a new body - he'll always be injured...

    I'd take sufficient ballhandling over injured any day of the week.

    We'll just have to wait and see.

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    Default Re: HMMM

    To me one HUGE difference with former Pacer trade demands and Ron's demand is they were made in private going to Donnie Walsh and telling him one on one. A second point though Pacers players have asked to be dealt they also made them after the season , not 17 games into a season.

    Ron Artest forced the Pacers hand by not only publicly saying he wanted dealt but also saying he did not wish to play for the current coach. Ron was given to opportunity to retract his statements but instead chose to go on tv the next day and pour even more gas on the fire.

    Ron after about 10 days and realizing he was going to be traded , then and only then after seeing the team was not going to kiss his arse , said oops I wanna comeback.

    At that point the damage had been done, his teammates, Pacer front office and most of the fans already felt betrayed. The team is struggling but given the way the Pistons have played a 4th seed was the best this team could do this season. Without Ron they are only currently 1/2 game out of that spot, before his demand 19 games ago the Pacers had already lost 7 games after 35 the Pistons have still lost only 5, even with a 19 game winning streak the Pacers would be 4th.

    Yes, on the court Ron (when focused) is an outstanding player but he had his chances. When the trade is finally completed the Pacers will be a weaker team from talent aspect. But at least it will contain players who at least on the surface WANT TO BE INDIANA PACERS.

  13. #13
    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by NPFII
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    I think you're wrong.
    A PG doesn't HAVE to be the best dribbler in the world. I think his handles are sufficient, and he's still on the learning curve of maximizing his abilities, without the need to learn new ones.

    In any case, to paraphrase your statement - unless JT grows a new body - he'll always be injured...

    I'd take sufficient ballhandling over injured any day of the week.

    We'll just have to wait and see.
    1: A PG needs to have reasonably above average dribbling/ballhandling skills. neither Aj nor Saras have these skills.
    2: If you can give me medical proof that the freak injuries Tins had in his career are not a statistical abnomally then I am right until proven wrong that the chances that he will be hurt the rest of his career are smaller then average. He might be more prone to being injured due to preparation, use of body etc but besides the very small possibillity that he has a body that can not perform topsports, which to me would show through other injuries, that is something that can and should be solved.
    3: sufficient ballhandling is not what Saras and AJ can count as their skills, they are inadequate at best

    Taking "suuficient ballhandling" over an injury is not the choice of champions.
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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    Then why not have Breakfast at Milliways!


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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter
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    You should only keep your mouth shut when chewing.

    Welcome to PD & speak up as offen as you can.
    Unless you're at a forum party. Then there's no time for chewing.

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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    1: A PG needs to have reasonably above average dribbling/ballhandling skills. neither Aj nor Saras have these skills.
    2: If you can give me medical proof that the freak injuries Tins had in his career are not a statistical abnomally then I am right until proven wrong that the chances that he will be hurt the rest of his career are smaller then average. He might be more prone to being injured due to preparation, use of body etc but besides the very small possibillity that he has a body that can not perform topsports, which to me would show through other injuries, that is something that can and should be solved.
    3: sufficient ballhandling is not what Saras and AJ can count as their skills, they are inadequate at best

    Taking "suuficient ballhandling" over an injury is not the choice of champions.
    Tinsley has had foot and ankle problems going back to his Rookie season. He missed a couple of games during that season and then reinjured it during the first round of the Playoffs against NJ in 2002 (remember Kevin Ollie?).

    The following regular season was pretty good other than the games he missed due to the death of his mother. This is totally understandable and I'll give him a pass for the injuries at the end of the season (remember getting Tim Hardaway?) and during the playoffs.

    The 61 wins season he missed several games due to pouting (playing behind Kenny Anderson) and ankle injuries. Once he returned, he was a force and played his best season, IMO. However, he was once again injured late in the season with an ankle injury and was hobbled during the Pistons series with a leg injury.

    Then he had the foot fracture in 2005 and an ankle injury this season before suffering the torn biceps.

    In other words, Tinsley has missed at least 50 games the past 5 years with ankle/foot injuries. This bicep thing is the only fluke in the bunch but he's had problems with his ankles, feet, and legs every season he's played.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by diamonddave00
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    To me one HUGE difference with former Pacer trade demands and Ron's demand is they were made in private going to Donnie Walsh and telling him one on one.
    Good point.

    Mr. Goldfoot is also dismissing the apparent fact that Ron's incidents, while almost too numerous to mention, have been UNDERREPORTED. Many offhand remarks by players lead us to understand that we know a small percentage of the distractions he causes.

    Anthony Johnson and others have basically said (parphrasing here) that ALMOST EVERY DAY it was a new thing, something else, some new drama.

    The Pacers are perhaps the most tight-lipped and media-controlling franchise in sports. We don't know the extent to which this guy has been a daily pain-in-the-you-know-what every day for years, and that may be a good thing because as much as the teams trying to trade for him know that they are taking a risk, they may not know the whole story.

    I bet 1 in 10 of the late-for-practice, late for the plane, skipped a meeting, mouthed off at coaches type incidents was ever reported.

  17. #17
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by Pingu
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    Sarunas Jasikevicius is a rookie
    I'm well aware of his rookie status. I made these statements based on many other posters calling for him to be the starter. Jasikevivius is a rookie , is just another reason he shouldn't. There are also those who argue " he's not your typical rookie". The guys already pushing 30. Unfortunately, he may well be past his prime. Also, his assist to turnover ratio in euroleague play...1.68 to 1 so he's never really protected the ball very well.

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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireball Kid
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    So your saying Eddie Gill should be our 2nd string point guard? Is that what your saying? Am I misreading that???
    I meant when Tinsley returns, AJ should be the backup.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by NZPacer
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    In regards to your tinsley comments, does the amount of games tins has missed compare favourable with those who you say his asset/turnover ratio is favourable?
    The comparisons were made to point out turnovers not durability.

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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot
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    Also, his assist to turnover ratio in euroleague play...1.68 to 1 so he's never really protected the ball very well.
    Yet he led his teams to three straight titles. That's why some of us want him to start and be force fed so we can see what we have.

  21. #21

    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by able
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    Unless Saras grows new hands, he will not become the starter for this team.
    He will perhaps be an energizing bunny of the bench, but not the starter, that much I have seen.
    I think - there is no real evidence yet if Saras can be a starter or not. And we are just believers - who either believe that Saras is able to be a starter or not. I'm actualy taking my time to see what will happen.

    -A believer
    I'm really sorry because of my english (which is my 3-4 language) and I really appreciate Your patience. I hope this board will make me better

  22. #22
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by DeS
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    Welcome Dr. Goldfoot,

    I think, any non-offending opinion is welcome here. But Your analysis, let's say... isn't complete. It's very one-sided - while praising (only) some guys and degrading (only) other. For example You are praising Tins on his risen 3pt% (0.31), but You are degrading Saras shooting at the same time, although he shoots 9% better (3pt%), not to mention FT shooting (~35% better).

    Reading Your arguments makes me think that Sarunas is a very bad PG and all other PG's are far better (coz he do not do anything right). I thought to bring some arguments, but on the other hand this theme (about Saras limitations and what he brings to the team) is exhausted in numerous discussions.
    Jasikevicius is a better shooter than Tinsley. He was billed that way, too. Tinsley's shot was suspect when he entered the league. He was praised for passing ability, ball handling and the ability to break down a defense. His shooting % and 3pt % have risen each year. This shows me the guy works on his shot in the off season , something else that's been questioned before (his work ethic...). On the other hand , Jasikevicius was billed as a great shooter. He has shown flashes of pretty good shooting. His overall percentages leave a little to be desired for a great shooter. .419 fg% .398 3pt% ( his 3pt % is great ..just leveling out)

    I think Jasikevicius is an average player. Jacque Vaughn exposed his weak ball handling skills on MLK day. He's pretty slow on the defensive end and he won't get quicker. Anthony Johnson has shown over the last two years that he can be just as streaky as Rooney and still play defense. Sarunus is 29 and not the future at point guard for the Indiana Pacers.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Manu vs Rooney is apples and oranges. Manu is a 6-6 versatile player who can create his own shot. He is just as effective at any position he's asked to play. It also took about three years for him to become the NBA player he is today. Sarunus will be 32 in three years and isn't anywhere near as versatile.

  24. #24
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Pacertom what we haven't heard about Ron's actions is all heresay. The fact remains, sitting Ron is hurting the team and lowering his trade value.

  25. #25
    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: HMMM

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot
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    Pacertom what we haven't heard about Ron's actions is all heresay. The fact remains, sitting Ron is hurting the team and lowering his trade value.
    I agree with the first part, but not the second.

    RON is hurting the team, and lowering his trade value. Period. He has been in both of those categories since the day he got here. It finally came to a head, and I am glad it did. I didn't like this team very much with Ron on it. No class, no credibility. We can get that back now.

    The argument for bringing Ron back or not suspending him in the first place has been made long ago by the Ron-apologists. Find that thread and post in it.

    I wouldn't bring him back if we had lost every single game since they benched him. I wouldn't bring him back if we lost every game the rest of the season. He needs to move on, and that point has been stated ad nauseum. It isn't worth debating anymore.

    You're welcome to your own opinion, but the rest of us are too.



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