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Thread: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

  1. #101
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    One of the things that seemed like a bad break ended up helping Larry's game quite a bit. He broke his arm in high school and had to practice everything with his left hand. During that time he learned how to shoot, dribble, etc. very well. Larry could dribble the ball very well.

    I still disagree that Larry was a great athlete. I don't think he was very fast and I don't think he could jump that high, but clearly he could dunk the ball. His greatest assetts were his shot, size, court vision, and basketball smarts. You can add in to the fact that he was shall we say... confident. So even though he was not going to set any track records, the man was blessed with some physical talents to play this game.

    Larry was once quoted as saying "I've got making up for a lack of speed down to a science," and I think he was right. So much of basketball is positioning. He knew where to be at the right time and that is half the battle on offense and defense.

    But who are you comparing him to? Dr. J? Michael Jordan? Clyde Drexler?

    Let's compare him athleticly to our own Waymond Tisdale.

    Do you still think Larry was slower & not able to jump has high? Sorry, but it's just a myth that has grown as time has gone on.

    When you are comparing him to other players of his time frame you have to compare him to other players who were 6'9" tall & I can tell you that Larry could hold his own in a foot race with most of them & he would certainly beat out a few of them.

    I bet if we lined up Larry (prior to back injury's) against Waymond Tisdale in a foot race Larry would win.

    Larry would have been able to jump as high as Mike Bantom although he probably wasn't a quick as Mike.

    What about Len Elmore he was only 6'9" tall, do you think he was an athletic wonder? I saw Lenny play many of times & I can tell you that although he was a good decent center, he wasn't in Larry's realm as far as speed.

    BTW, this should help put this into perspective as well. Lenny was 6'9" tall & weighed 10 pounds less than Larry yet he played Center.

    Bird switched between the 3 & 4 depending on who was in with him, although it could be argued he was still the 3 even when Cornbread Maxwell as in the game.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #102
    Member Julius Sour's Avatar
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    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    Including his two tonight, Sarunas Jasikevicius has made 55 3-pt FG this season, just six off the Pacers' rookie single-season record held by Reggie Miller.
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  3. #103

    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But who are you comparing him to? Dr. J? Michael Jordan? Clyde Drexler?

    Let's compare him athleticly to our own Waymond Tisdale.

    Do you still think Larry was slower & not able to jump has high? Sorry, but it's just a myth that has grown as time has gone on.

    When you are comparing him to other players of his time frame you have to compare him to other players who were 6'9" tall & I can tell you that Larry could hold his own in a foot race with most of them & he would certainly beat out a few of them.

    I bet if we lined up Larry (prior to back injury's) against Waymond Tisdale in a foot race Larry would win.

    Larry would have been able to jump as high as Mike Bantom although he probably wasn't a quick as Mike.

    What about Len Elmore he was only 6'9" tall, do you think he was an athletic wonder? I saw Lenny play many of times & I can tell you that although he was a good decent center, he wasn't in Larry's realm as far as speed.

    BTW, this should help put this into perspective as well. Lenny was 6'9" tall & weighed 10 pounds less than Larry yet he played Center.

    Bird switched between the 3 & 4 depending on who was in with him, although it could be argued he was still the 3 even when Cornbread Maxwell as in the game.
    I think we can agree on a couple of points.

    1. There were players who were as bad if not worse than Bird playing during his tenure. For example, Magic Johnson is not a good athlete.

    2. It is probably less of an issue to be a great athlete when you have his size and play his position.

    However, you are using some pretty extreme examples. Let us look at the Dream Team, these were folks who were his peers right?

    Jordan, Malone, Drexler, Pippen, and David Robinson are guys I would consider to be great atheltes. They are all very strong, fast, and generally set themselves apart with some physical presence. Or how about James Worthy? Are we comparing Larry Bird's first step to his? Maybe Larry isn't as bad athletically as he purports to be, but he isn't that good either.

    The interesting thing I notice is that many of the players on the Dream Team are not people I would consider to be great athletes. But I think what hurts Saras, as much as anything else, is the position he is playing... guard. Guards are usually your fastest players on the floor, so a person usually has to be pretty quick. Saras is also pretty short for the NBA, so unlike Larry he can't make up for his lack of speed with some other physical attribute.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    I once talked with a guy who played with Bird in college. He said he was as fast as anybody on the court with his first move. Slower after that, sure, but its the first move that matters most.

  5. #105
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    I think we can agree on a couple of points.

    1. There were players who were as bad if not worse than Bird playing during his tenure. For example, Magic Johnson is not a good athlete.

    2. It is probably less of an issue to be a great athlete when you have his size and play his position.

    However, you are using some pretty extreme examples. Let us look at the Dream Team, these were folks who were his peers right?

    Jordan, Malone, Drexler, Pippen, and David Robinson are guys I would consider to be great atheltes. They are all very strong, fast, and generally set themselves apart with some physical presence. Or how about James Worthy? Are we comparing Larry Bird's first step to his? Maybe Larry isn't as bad athletically as he purports to be, but he isn't that good either.

    The interesting thing I notice is that many of the players on the Dream Team are not people I would consider to be great athletes. But I think what hurts Saras, as much as anything else, is the position he is playing... guard. Guards are usually your fastest players on the floor, so a person usually has to be pretty quick. Saras is also pretty short for the NBA, so unlike Larry he can't make up for his lack of speed with some other physical attribute.

    I'm using extreme examples????

    You just listed down two of the greatest guards ever & one fantastic small forward.

    Each of them being 6'6" or 6'7".

    All that I ask is that he be compared to other players of his size. Now if you wanna say he wasn't as fast as Karl Malone I won't argue at all. I won't even argue about David Robinson, but Robinson was an extrememe case (along with Hakeem) in the fact that they were both quick for big men.

    I'm not saying Larry Bird was as fast as lightning. I'm just saying that compared to other 6'9" players of his day he was as fast as 75% of them & was probably faster than 50% of them.

    Yes James Worthy was faster as well.

    I guess where we are disagreeing on is this.

    You are saying he was not as athletic as the other elite players of his day, to which I will agree for the most part.

    But I am saying comparing him to other players of his time frame of the same size he is as fast if not faster.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  6. #106

    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan
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    I once talked with a guy who played with Bird in college. He said he was as fast as anybody on the court with his first move. Slower after that, sure, but its the first move that matters most.
    Well, and I think what made him special is that he played to his strengths.

    Take away his drive, he'll burn you with a 3.
    Guard him tight in the post, he'll drop a fade away jumper on you.
    Double Team him, and he'll throw a pass through your legs and around the goal post and hit Robert Parish in stride for a dunk.

    As I remember him playing, he could hit a variety of shots that were almost unblockable, so the athletic thing just wasn't as important. He shot lots of fadeaways and he could hit some circus shots that he just practiced all the time.

    I do know he kept in shape. He mentions in his coaching book how he wowed some of the Pacers after running 3 miles with them.

  7. #107

    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    You are saying he was not as athletic as the other elite players of his day, to which I will agree for the most part.

    But I am saying comparing him to other players of his time frame of the same size he is as fast if not faster.
    Well fair enough, but it is kind of hard to box Bird in to a specific category. He and Magic were both kind of freaks of nature. They were big enough to be forwards, but they had the court vision and dribbling skills to play guard. I realize that Magic played PG most of his career and Bird Forward, but they blurred the line at the position.

    And you also have to look at the people they would cover Bird with. Bird once said that Michael Cooper played him best. Michael Cooper is definitely not a forward and I'm sure it was his athleticism that gave Bird fits. And this is a player that actually guarded Bird on several occassions, so I think it is fair to mention him in this discussion.

    He certainly was as fast as guys like Greg Kite, Kurt Rambis, etc., but I don't think anybody would accuse that group of folks as being "athletic." I know part of it comes down to comparisons, but to me you either are or are not a good athlete regardless of the depth of athletes at your position. The NBA has went for years at a time where there are few athletic centers in the league.

    I get your point though. There weren't lots of 6' 9" guys who had a tremendous advantage over him.

  8. #108

    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    I'd say that Larry wasn't great because he was athletic; however the was never a question that he wasn't athletic enough to be in the NBA.

    I remember people talking about Alfred and Bailey saying how great they would be in the NBA and the line went "It doesn't matter if they aren't athletic enough look at Bird." Well it turns out that it did matter. And I think if Bird were as unathletic as people wanted to make him out to be it again would have mattered.

    On to Saras I remember when Buck in fact did hate Tins; his arguement boiled down to the fact that Tins wasn't athletic enough to be a PG in the NBA. Well, Saras is less athletic than Tins and can't penetrate--what make us think that Saras not only will be better than Tins but be a championship caliber pg?
    "They could turn out to be only innocent mathematicians, I suppose," muttered Woevre's section officer, de Decker.

    "'Only.'" Woevre was amused. "Someday you'll explain to me how that's possible. Seeing that, on the face of it, all mathematics leads, doesn't it, sooner or later, to some kind of human suffering."

  9. #109
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian
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    I'd say that Larry wasn't great because he was athletic; however the was never a question that he wasn't athletic enough to be in the NBA.
    That's a good distinction. Larry's greatness wasn't due to his athletic abilities, but that's different from saying he's not athletic enough to handle his position.
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  10. #110

    Default Re: Okay, how bout Saras 38?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcadian
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    I'd say that Larry wasn't great because he was athletic; however the was never a question that he wasn't athletic enough to be in the NBA.

    I remember people talking about Alfred and Bailey saying how great they would be in the NBA and the line went "It doesn't matter if they aren't athletic enough look at Bird." Well it turns out that it did matter. And I think if Bird were as unathletic as people wanted to make him out to be it again would have mattered.

    On to Saras I remember when Buck in fact did hate Tins; his arguement boiled down to the fact that Tins wasn't athletic enough to be a PG in the NBA. Well, Saras is less athletic than Tins and can't penetrate--what make us think that Saras not only will be better than Tins but be a championship caliber pg?

    Okay, but let us remember that Bailey and Alford weren't 6' 9" either. So Bailey, Alford, and Sarunas have no height and no speed. At least Bird was of good size.

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