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Thread: The real problem (on offense)

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default The real problem (on offense)

    The problem, and I think it was nailed in some game thread, seems to be that we can't utilize J.O.'s strengths and move the ball. It was the same with Artest. He hated that offense. You guys should just watch like Jackson on some plays called for J.O. He takes the possession off. He's just tired of the offense. And why shouldn't he be when he knows that there is going to be no movement? At least with Reggie we had one player moving at all times. This whole center thing might be an issue...as well as the SG problems but I think the core of the problem is what caused Ron to ask for a trade in the first place: the offense. And the problem is, I don't know how to solve it. One of those times where I am VERY glad I am not coach or GM.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Jackson doesn't take plays off. He does what the offense tells him to do, which is stand in a spot and wait for the ball to come to him.

    Calrisle's offense is based on spacing. One guy beats his man off the dribble, and the help defense will typically be too far away to help in time.

    The trade-off is that you can't have players moving much without the ball, because it destroys the spacing of the players on the floor. Help-defenders can more easily disrupt a slasher or post player.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    It might destroy the spacing but you don't have to have everyone still while J.O. has the ball. I like how SA uses TD, not to compare JO to TD but I think we can do that too. Move the ball around more and have Jermaine create more shots by being a threat. It makes no sense that we shoot better without JO. Toronto collapsed on him with a zone, effectively stopping him and we just expected Freddie Jones to make some half-assed three at the end of the shot clock after JO had held it for 10-15secs. Please. How come we shot better when the Sonics were playing man? Reason is that we moved the ball better and still got fairly good shots. With the zone we just froze up and despite the fact that it was a zone focused around one player we still couldnt hit a shot. It was a desperation move on their part and we just couldnt respond.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    You don't shoot better without JO.

    You shoot better when you play the Sonics.

    If you can go to Denver and hit 10+ threes, then you can say you're a better shooting team without JO.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Wait, how is Toronto better than the Sonics again? Especially since we lost to that same Sonics team earlier with both Ron and J.O.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom
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    Wait, how is Toronto better than the Sonics again?
    Toronto is definately better than the Sonics right now, if for no other reason than because the Raptors actually do what their coach tells them to do.

    Not to mention, they're a better road team than Seattle. They're 5-2 in their last 7 road games, the only losses coming in Detroit and San Antonio.

    Especially since we lost to that same Sonics team earlier with both Ron and J.O.
    In case you hadn't noticed (certainly ownership noticed), Seattle wasn't really playing hard last night

    When you tune your coach out after 30 games, that's a problem. The effort kinda goes out the window when you don't believe in what you're doing.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Good pts, Weiss is terrible. And I'm not a huge Mitchell fan either. Regardless, I don't think we are better off without J.O. I just think we can utilize him much better than we are at the moment.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    You can't just junk the offense mid-season. There's far too little practice time to make the players run a different offense. It is what it is. Lots of good looks, little passing.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Headband and Rec Specs rexnom's Avatar
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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Again, valid point, but I'm not seeing the lots of good looks. Or maybe our guys are just not hitting their shots. How do we fix either problem? You can't deny one of those two exists, even for argument's sake because the offense struggles on many nights and other nights it just takes quarters off.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom
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    Again, valid point, but I'm not seeing the lots of good looks. Or maybe our guys are just not hitting their shots. How do we fix either problem? You can't deny one of those two exists, even for argument's sake because the offense struggles on many nights and other nights it just takes quarters off.
    Again, the offense only APPEARS to make the players look lazy. It's the same offense I saw for 2 years in Detroit. When shots are falling, it looks like the greatest offense ever. When it isn't, it looks like the worst offense ever. You can score 120 one night and 72 the next.

    It relies heavily on individual offensive skills. On the Pacers, that means perimeter shooting for everybody not named Freddie Jones. Croshere, Saras, Johnson and Jackson are shooters first, slashers second. They'll get good chances to get their shots off, but when those don't fall, it makes everybody else look worse because they're just standing there, which is what they're SUPPOSED to do.

    In the end, the offense is VERY hot-cold, because it relies so heavily on 3-pointers. It doesn't mean there's a lack of effort, though. Players arent supposed to move without the ball, nor are they supposed to crash the boards.

    It's a system set up to support the defense. You know football teams that do nothing but run the ball up the middle and play it safe and let the defense win the game? That's what Carlisle's gameplan is. Don't give the defense chances to force turnovers, don't crash the glass, always get back on defense, limit fast break opportunities for the other team, force the other team to play 20+ seconds of defense per posession, and eventually your shots are going to fall, and your halfcourt defense will win the game.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    I dont think there is a lack of effort either, my initial point was that I could see why Jack got so bored with it. Its frustrating. It makes sense though when you put it that way. It can be very hot/cold and streaky. I guess it goes with the Pacers.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom
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    I dont think there is a lack of effort either, my initial point was that I could see why Jack got so bored with it. Its frustrating. It makes sense though when you put it that way. It can be very hot/cold and streaky. I guess it goes with the Pacers.
    They get bored with it, because the players are limited to what they can do and where they can go on the floor. It's very repeditive.

    However, when you win 2/3 of your games in that system, it's hard to say it needs to be changed.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Isn't that what the pistons did a few years back?

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom
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    Isn't that what the pistons did a few years back?
    It's the same system, yeah. Same offense.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    They get bored with it, because the players are limited to what they can do and where they can go on the floor. It's very repeditive.

    However, when you win 2/3 of your games in that system, it's hard to say it needs to be changed.
    I was speaking in regards to this. Even though I am in NO way advocating the firing of Rick Carlisle.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom
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    I was speaking in regards to this. Even though I am in NO way advocating the firing of Rick Carlisle.
    The players didn't hate him. Well, Ben hated him, because he never used Ben at all offensively. He expected Rick to throw him a bone once in a while, and Rick never did.

    I don't think any of the players got bored with the restrictive flow of the offense aside from Ben, though. Of course, there were only 2-3 offensive players on the floor at any given time, so there were plenty of shots to go around for the shooters. Rip and Chauncey could launch 20+ shots each no problem.

    Maybe that's a big part of why Rick loves veterans. Veterans are less likely to get impatient and break the offense.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    I remember Wallace not liking it...hmm, oh well. It wins us games so I'm for it...I just hate seeing us go on these long offensive droughts

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat
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    Jackson doesn't take plays off. He does what the offense tells him to do, which is stand in a spot and wait for the ball to come to him.

    Calrisle's offense is based on spacing. One guy beats his man off the dribble, and the help defense will typically be too far away to help in time.

    The trade-off is that you can't have players moving much without the ball, because it destroys the spacing of the players on the floor. Help-defenders can more easily disrupt a slasher or post player.


    Finally someone explains what is going on. All of Kstat's points in this thread are great

    There is a logical reason for players to be standing around the three point line when J.O has the ball. Everyone wantrs all this movement when J.O has the ball, well unless you want it easier for teams to double J.O, movement is not a really good idea. Although there is always or almost always an initial cut when J.O gets the ball.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Finally someone explains what is going on. All of Kstat's points in this thread are great

    There is a logical reason for players to be standing around the three point line when J.O has the ball. Everyone wantrs all this movement when J.O has the ball, well unless you want it easier for teams to double J.O, movement is not a really good idea. Although there is always or almost always an initial cut when J.O gets the ball.
    Yup! Aggreed! Good post, KStat!
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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    But the cruxt of this argument is that we are almost admitting this is a prevent offense.

    In other words we are not really attacking the offensive end at all, we are just trying to limit the defensive lapses.

    Hence, why we have periods of 6-7 min. a ballgame without a fieldgoal.

    It works for the regular season, can't argue with that. But I quesiton how well this will work in a 7 game series vs. a real team.

    So far, this hasn't beaten Detroit.

    BTW, now that we no longer have two post players what is the plan?


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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But the cruxt of this argument is that we are almost admitting this is a prevent offense.

    In other words we are not really attacking the offensive end at all, we are just trying to limit the defensive lapses.

    Hence, why we have periods of 6-7 min. a ballgame without a fieldgoal.

    It works for the regular season, can't argue with that. But I quesiton how well this will work in a 7 game series vs. a real team.

    So far, this hasn't beaten Detroit.

    BTW, now that we no longer have two post players what is the plan?

    I've heard Rick say that against great defensive teams such as The Pistons you need more free flowing

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    But the cruxt of this argument is that we are almost admitting this is a prevent offense.
    It's only a prevent offense when it doesnt work. If you score 115 points playing that way, it's hard to call it a "prevent" offense.

    In other words we are not really attacking the offensive end at all, we are just trying to limit the defensive lapses.
    Basically, yes. Of course, one has to ask if you think you have the horses to go up and down with most NBA teams.

    Hence, why we have periods of 6-7 min. a ballgame without a fieldgoal.
    Again, that's the trade-off. Every scheme gives up something, that's what Rick's offense gives up. No offensive boards, no fast break points. Of course the other teams doesnt get many either.

    It works for the regular season, can't argue with that. But I quesiton how well this will work in a 7 game series vs. a real team.
    Well, since it hasn't worked against a contending team yet, it's a valid point. I don't know if that means it CAN'T work, however.

    My theory is that in january, the average team will play 15+seconds of solid D but won't go that extra 5-9 seconds and more often than not will give up a good look. In the playoffs, however, teams WILL play defense for the entire shot clock, which forces the offense to get creative.

    So far, this hasn't beaten Detroit.
    A lot of schemes have yet to beat Detroit.

    BTW, now that we no longer have two post players what is the plan?
    The Pistons had only one post player in 02 and 03, and he didn't even start. The system can work with almost any combination of players.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  23. #23
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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    good points by kstat throughout this thread...

    outside of the 6-7 min. lapses with no FGs, i think another thing that hurts us is turnovers. we've been pretty bad this year in turning the ball over. in this offense that is all about limiting possessions, we can't afford to turn the ball over more than 10-12 times a game. We're 25th in turnovers and 23rd in turnover differential. We can't be successful when we have wasted possessions.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    I like the thread and its explanation of old Pistons - new Pacers offense. I also agree that the explanation given by Kstat is exactly what is going on in the Pacers offensive strategy.

    However, I disagree with one point. And I also disagree with Carlisle if he actually thinks in the same manner.

    And that is the notion that you cannot have much off-the-ball movement because it eats up the spacing that you are trying to maintain. In fact, in a perfect world, I would find exactly the opposite to be true.

    Maintaining spacing without player movement makes the perimeter players far too easy to defend. Even in a double-team of your post player, passing out the perimeter player will result in the shooter being “rushed”. You may get an occasional wide-open perimeter shot, but virtually every mid-range shot and short-range shot that you take will be significantly contested.

    With player movement off the ball, players are sacrificing spacing on a momentary basis by setting an off-the-ball screen in order to create open space for a teammate. In a decent offense the creation of space is times with the movement of the ball. I would almost always rather have a player with the ball in his hands in open space than the ball in the hands of a man in the paint with his back to the basket while facing a double-team.

    Over the past several games, I believe Jermaine’s shot selection has improved dramatically. He limits his fade-away jumpers to short range and he seems more willing to pass out of low percentage situations to re-establish the offense.

    I think that this is just a further maturation of his game. And, I see no reason whatsoever why Jermaine could not be the featured piece within a motion offense. He has the athleticism to use other players picks to get open for shots, and he certainly has the body to create space of his teammates.

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    Default Re: The real problem (on offense)

    I just wanted to say that Kstat you have given me the clearest description of our offense that I have ever read. Thanks.

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