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Thread: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

  1. #51
    Member owl's Avatar
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    Mar 2004

    Default Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

    "And while we're at it, get more freakin' movement on offense. I don't care if JO's got the ball in the post, if you're standing around, you'll be sitting down.

    And rebound, dammit. Send at least one more guy to the boards.
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++

    1--Trade Artest for some draft pick in the top ten next year/and a player

    2--Draft Shelden Williams for defense and rebounding

    3--Start Saras at point or at least as a back up/for movement on offense


  2. #52
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Jan 2004

    Default Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    I guess the question is this.

    Do you think this team is fundamentally flawed?

    If your answer is yes, then how flawed is it?

    This team is fundamentally flawed. I believe part of the problem goes back to '99 when Mr Walsh decided the team was finished and needed to rebuild. Then we went to the Finals in spite of his observation but the seeds were already planted and the mold cast. I'll never believe trading Dale was a super stroke of genius and planning as much as a trade for convienence (Dale, got angry, Dale got traded). It didn't even fit with what were doing (why did we re-sign Cro at all if we were going to be trading DD for JO?). And why trade AD for only a schoolboy if you have to KNOW Smits is ready to retire at any minute?

    Some called it rebuilding on the fly. Well, in the end it was probably closer to not fully committing to the rebuilding process.

    So off the bat we had a flawed team. And we hired a flawed coach (Thomas) who had no business even being asked to coach a team like that. We wasted 3 years with Thomas never truly knowing what we had due to the fact the team was flawed and he had no idea what to do about it.

    It probably wasn't helped having the most patient management in all of pro sports at the helm totally refusing to address anything until it absolutely had to be addressed.

    So we ended up with a team so flawed Walsh had to pull the trigger on a mid season deal or risk making the playoffs (which IMHO would be missing his one true and overriding goal).

    And here we are with nothing to show from that.

    Again. A flawed team. So how does this happen? It's because we absolutely refuse to deal with mistakes/problems until we absolutely have to. The media doesn't help. We don't just refuse to move on from problems, we compound them with patience and loyalty beyond all reason. And contract extensions.

    Maybe Artest isn't the real true problem.... or certainly not the only problem. Maybe when Reggie said "Ron Artest is not the bad egg" we should've taken him at face value. But shouldn't those closest to the program KNOW who "the bad egg" is and KNOW what is causing problems and do something about it before it festers into a public explosion? Do they ever? ...Or do we just put on a happy face and hand out bigger checks than any other team would to otherwise mediocre (average) players?

    I realize other teams make mistakes too but how many other teams don't work hard to do something about it? I really think we create some of our chemistry problems by failing to address other problems and nipping them in the bud to begin with.

    Why don't these other 'well ran' franchises have these problems and why are they able to ebb and flow and find themselves back in contention without the drama?

    a. Totally screwed, needs to start all over
    b. Just a little screwed, we need to make one good trade
    c. Not really screwed, time & patience will right the ship
    It's "A" more than anything.

    I don't think it's possible to make "one good trade" if you mean Artest and filler for a piece that rights the ship right away. I don't think we have any leverage to do that and we're close to the only team that was willing to take a chance on Artest... There are plenty who would try him, if they can get him on the cheap. And rest assured, wherever he goes will not take this long to decide if he's good or bad for their team and move on if they need to.

    Now how would you improve this team.
    Team players first and foremost. Anyone not in the program gets the bench. Management has to show some willingness to bounce players and get the coach's back. Sinupoutinitis, boneheaded shots, breaking the offense, lack of defense, etc should get you buried on the bench. And the coach should get full support of management to do that. If the bench doesn't lead to an attitude adjustment then management needs to move in and make a move. Players should never feel too comfortable on a team IMHO.

    If there's a mutiny against the coach brewing, then address it by moving the cancers or moving the coach (the coach can be a cancer as well).

    Today: Put a sign in on the desk of Bird and Walsh that says "Do not reward players who have not earned it".

    Would you build a team that Carlisle can use to his own devices or would you put together a team that you liked & force Carlisle to either change or get rid of him?
    My first thought is to build a teamaround my coach. Don't force him to use or NEED players he'd prefer not to be playing.

    I really don't like the idea of trading solid, yet unspectacular players, just so the coach won't over rely on them.

    I'm not convinced Carlisle hasn't worn out his welcome with this bunch so much of this could be moot.

    You can't develop players if they are on the bench. And if they are needing extra work there's the NBDL or retired players you can hire for their coaching ability for individual workouts. But at some point, either the coach needs to use them, or if he can't find the answer and fix it. New coach or trade the players and get players that can help you. A player can't help if he can't get off the bench.

    Tinsley should've already been gone IMHO. If Carlisle is the coach I don't think there should even be any question in that.

    I tried to give Sjax the benefit of the doubt after 11/19 but he's made that very hard.

    I guess the pessimist in me wonders if there's not more we should know about JO as the centerpiece of this team. Is that really where the fatal flaw lies... in the center of the foundation? Lord knows if that is the case, with the patience and unwillingness of our management to admit a mistake and move on, it could be a LONG while before that would be addressed. So let's hope there's no problems there.

    All things considered, I'm not convinced Artest and JO would've made it thru LAST season if 11/19 would not have happened. We may have been farther from a championship last year than some of us want to believe.

    I'm ready to see our best TEAM players taking the court and playing TEAM basketball at their natural positions. Take our lumps. Make some trades of malcontents and bad fits. Develop who we can. Move who we can't develop. And in 2 or 3 years down the road we can see where we need to tweak and maybe get back to where we were in 98...99...2000

    IOW... it's time to FULLY commit to that rebuilding process we've been trying to avoid.

    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.


    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  3. #53

    Default Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

    I've read most of the 3 pages and agree with alot of it. my 2 cents:
    1. We just played 2 very good teams on their court, games that we may have not won even with RA and an in-shape Foster.
    2. We need to get RA traded as most everyone agrees with.
    3. I agree with Peck(?) that AJ and Freddie are nothing more then role players on a second unit. Freddie is too small to play the 2 or 3 and not good enough with the ball to play the 1. He would be good on a team like Phx.
    4. Foster is not in shape and won't be for another month. Give him time.
    5. We are still a top ten franchise (barely) and it will be interesting to see who DW/Bird trade for and may give us a little insight into the future plans.
    6. Sarunas is in a shooting slump, he can hit the 3 and proved it early on.
    7. Granger will be good but not for a few more years.
    8. We need a rebounder.... Anybody seen Dale Davis lately. Detroit signing him might have been as much about keeping him away from us.
    9. We need 2 quality players now with experience to get back to the top and both need to be big guys. I like Odom and maybe a Chris Wilcox, hopefully we can do a 3 for 2 deal and be ready in April.
    10. We need to trade Jax for another 2 before February deadline but not now.
    Nice thread guys... its why I come here.
    "He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
    Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)

  4. #54
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004

    Default Re: An open honest discusion about the Pacers....

    I figured this thread would go on for days....

    Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.


    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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