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Thread: Well you knew I would bring this up

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Well you knew I would bring this up

    so we might as well get this out of the way.

    While we are all complaining about Saras starting at shooting guard or that Pollard should get some time on the floor or that A.J. sucks the one thing that is as constant as taxes & death has occured.

    Rick Carlisle has unjustifiably benched Austin Croshere & started his real security blanket Jeff Foster.

    No matter how good the team was, no matter how good Croshere played this was going to happen.

    Forget the fact that we were 11-3 with Austin starting. No, we must let Foster play at all costs. He is such a defensive & rebounding force that he must be on the floor to start the game at all costs.

    Austin Croshere has been the glue that has held this team together for many games this season & this is now how he is going to be treated. He now is going to go back to being Jermaine's backup which will give him about 10 min. a game if he is lucky.

    Thus he will come in & miss a couple of three's & everybody will complain about his salary again.

    Yet early in the season almost nobody complained about his salary because he was the one guy bringing it every night.

    I would complain, but I wouldn't have anything to stand on, if Foster came in & just dominated the floor & our team won. Or if Austin suddenly had stopped producing at all.

    Neither has happened.

    If Foster isn't dropping passes he is missing layups. How many damn layups has the guy missed this season?

    Croshere brings something totally differant to the floor when he is out there & other teams have to adjust to us, not us adjust to them.

    Foster is just a void. Many people complain to me by saying "I don't get it Peck, you liked Dale Davis" & my retort is simple. Your right, you don't get it.

    Jeff Foster is nowhere near the defender or rebounder that Dale was. Hell even as a old man on his last legs last year he outdefended Foster in the paint.

    You cannot have this big of a whole on the offensive end, not when your team cannot put together back to back baskets on most occasions.

    This is frustrating beyond belief & it almost drives me over into the fire Carlisle catagory. Yes, I feel that strongly about it.

    I don't care if Foster is in top shape or is injured. He is what he is & what you are seeing now is what you will get from him with maybe a few more loose balls picked up so they can be declared rebounds.

    I guess at least Cro makes a lot of money so that makes it all ok.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2
    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Agree with this 100%
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Me too. Although from the title I thought you were going to blast em for letting DD walk away.
    If you get to thinkiní youíre a person of some influence, try orderiní somebody elseís dog around..

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    Member Doug in CO's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by indygeezer
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    Me too. Although from the title I thought you were going to blast em for letting DD walk away.
    He would fit in well with this team - chemistry-wise - as he can't hit free throws or shots more than 5 feet out either.
    Heywoode says... work hard man.

  5. #5
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    I can't disagree with that....

    And I'd be willing to change what I said in the other thread and let Pollard backup JO at center and Foster get a utility role backing up Cro and/or the C in some situations (even as a 3rd stringer).



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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    I agree with you as well, Peck. Between Sarunas vs AJ, and Foster vs Croshere, I'm about to lose it.

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    #PacerNation 317Kim's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    I agree with 5 of the 6 posts above. and I don't know which one of them is worst. Runi/AJ and Feisty/Cro

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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    I agree with you as well, Peck. Between Sarunas vs AJ, and Foster vs Croshere, I'm about to lose it.
    You said it best. Short and sweet.

    I was so happy to see Croshere playing well and showing what he can really do and then Foster comes back and Rick starts him and for what? JO can act like a PF? God damn it now a days about anyone who plays PF can play freaking center and heck most centers are really PFs it seems. Why fix whats not brooken?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    My heart really hasn't been in it these past few games. I'm just waiting (and waiting and waiting...) for the trade to happen so that the team can try to fill the void Artest has left. What I think most of you are forgeting is that without Artest (or equal talent), we aren't a championship contender anymore. We're an average NBA team. I expected us to lose to San Antonio, Dallas, and Cleveland, because we're simply not that great of a team anymore. And until the trade goes down, I fully expect us to lose to the vast majority of playoff teams we play.

    But I do agree with all of your points about Saras at SG and about Foster starting over Croshere. It makes me mad too. Saras is not a spot-up shooter, he needs the ball to be effective. AJ is the complete opposite. I have no clue why we can see that and Carlisle can't. I'm just hoping the trade will force Carlisle to switch things up a bit.

    If the trade doesn't happen this week, I'm probably going to lose it.

  10. #10
    How are you here? Kegboy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Well, Austin started against Dallas, and we got killed on the boards.

    I've come to the conclusion that neither is the answer. We need to trade Ron for a Big, pure and simple. Even a 3/4 hybrid like Al or Odom would be better, because they can both score in the post. If we trade for someone smaller than them, I'm gonna freak.
    Come to the Dark Side -- There's cookies!

  11. #11
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Well, Austin started against Dallas, and we got killed on the boards.

    I've come to the conclusion that neither is the answer. We need to trade Ron for a Big, pure and simple. Even a 3/4 hybrid like Al or Odom would be better, because they can both score in the post. If we trade for someone smaller than them, I'm gonna freak.
    But let's be honest about the rebounding thing. As long as Rick Carlisle is the coach we most likely will be outrebounded most games. Maybe not by as much as some games but in most games we will be.

    He absolutely refuses to have the wing players attack the offensive glass & his absolute insistance on fronting the post puts our bigs out of position on a lot of occasions on the defensive end.

    So even if we bring in Shaq we will still have the same problems on that end.

    But I'm not convinced Rick would play Shaq if he had him, not when Foster is over on the bench ready to stop all from scoring & grabbing every rebound that is out there.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  12. #12

    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    It would be nice if our bigs actually learned how to rebound in the first place. They just stand around, like they expect the ball to magically just go to them.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Member SycamoreKen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness
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    It would be nice if our bigs actually learned how to rebound in the first place. They just stand around, like they expect the ball to magically just go to them.
    Isn't that what the coaching staff is supposed to do?

  14. #14
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Peck, Croshere started the Dallas game.

    Foster started against Duncan and against Z. And if you read Rick's comments about it. You'll see he's well aware that of the Pacers good record with Cro starting. Even though they aren't 11-3.

    My point is Croshere will be back in the lineup based on matchups.

    So just calm down

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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Peck, Croshere started the Dallas game
    Yup - and looked like garbage. Same as Foster did last night.

    That tends to happen when you're matched up, respectively, with Nowitzki and Duncan.

    IMO Foster vs Croshere is close to irrelevant. They bring different things to the game but neither's gonna make or break you.

    The Pacers offense has been terrible the last two games - the ball movement, except around the perimiter, sucks. And the player movement is nonexistent. It doesn't seem to matter who gets the ball - JO, SJax, etc., but when they do and start to make a move, everyone else looks like their legs are locked in concrete. The defense hasn't been terrible but the offense has degenerated into ISO's while everyone else watches - no backscreens, players don't cut, etc., etc.

    Until the last week I hadn't watched many Pacer games but I have a guess who you miss more than anyone - Reggie Miller. And it isn't because of his scoring or outside shooting. It's because Reggie was constantly moving, continuously making the defense work and at least rotate, and I think the rest of the team caught that and did the same, at least somewhat.

    Your offense right now is really bad - and it seems to be a lack of effort on just about everyone's part. They're getting paid and on offense it seems like they should have to pay admission because they're mostly spectators.

    I should add that I haven't watched the 4th quarter in either of the last two games - the level of play wasn't good enough to keep my interest.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    I see where you're coming from Peck but Unclebuck and Rimfire summed it up best.

    Against Dirk or Duncan the Pacers are screwed either way. I even think the Pacers would've lost both games with Artest playing so I'm not surprised by the 0-2 Dallas trip. They should've and could've won in Cleveland if not for multiple meltdowns from Tinsley and Jack but overall, I'm not surprised by any of the three losses.

    I prefer Austin starting too but against Dallas and San Antonio it doesn't matter much which way you go.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Member owl's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick
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    I should add that I haven't watched the 4th quarter in either of the last two games - the level of play wasn't good enough to keep my interest.

    Truth. I believe that the Croshere/Foster debate had very little to do with the
    last 3 losses. The team(I use the term loosely) is just plain bad right now.
    Rebounding is pathetic. JO needs to learn to box out, along with several
    other Pacers. A new mix of players is needed.


    owl

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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    I couldn't disagree with you more about Foster, but that's nothing new. With Artest gone, Jeff is now our best overall defender, and has always been our best big man defender. There are statements by Rick, and Duncan that they would agree with me. Before his injury last year, Jeff was putting up better numbers then Dale did during his all star year. We need a healthy Jeff Foster on this team.

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    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace
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    Against Dirk or Duncan the Pacers are screwed either way.
    I'm sure you would agree - most teams are.
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

  20. #20
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Peck, Croshere started the Dallas game.

    Foster started against Duncan and against Z. And if you read Rick's comments about it. You'll see he's well aware that of the Pacers good record with Cro starting. Even though they aren't 11-3.

    My point is Croshere will be back in the lineup based on matchups.

    So just calm down

    But look at the overall minutes & you will see that Croshere is now playing sometimes less than half the min. he was playing before.

    Also, once again this is where I will disagree about the entire Carlisle thing. He is attempting to adjust to other teams, not making them adjust to us.

    Our offense was horrrid last night & the reason is simple, two of the five starters gave you nothing on the offensive end.

    When Croshere is in at least he facilitates ball movement if nothing else. As to those saying there is no differance well I respectfully disagree.

    Foster is giving us nothing & on the offensive end he is a liability. The man cannot hit open layups.

    So since Carlisle refuses to play either of our real Centers (Foster is a powerforward) then I would much prefer someone in there who can help J.O. on both ends of the floor.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by Kegboy
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    Well, Austin started against Dallas, and we got killed on the boards.

    I've come to the conclusion that neither is the answer.
    We need to trade Ron for a Big, pure and simple. Even a 3/4 hybrid like Al or Odom would be better, because they can both score in the post. If we trade for someone smaller than them, I'm gonna freak.
    Huzzah
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  22. #22
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    But look at the overall minutes & you will see that Croshere is now playing sometimes less than half the min. he was playing before.

    Also, once again this is where I will disagree about the entire Carlisle thing. He is attempting to adjust to other teams, not making them adjust to us.

    Our offense was horrrid last night & the reason is simple, two of the five starters gave you nothing on the offensive end.

    When Croshere is in at least he facilitates ball movement if nothing else. As to those saying there is no differance well I respectfully disagree.

    Foster is giving us nothing & on the offensive end he is a liability. The man cannot hit open layups.

    So since Carlisle refuses to play either of our real Centers (Foster is a powerforward) then I would much prefer someone in there who can help J.O. on both ends of the floor.


    One of the main reasons why Croshere has played fewer minutes is because of Granger. The Knicks game and the Cavs game, Granger took Cro's minutes

  23. #23

    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    I thought Foster defended Duncan pretty well.

    I think that neither one of them (Foster, Cro) should start on a team that has aspirations of winning anything other than a marginal playoff seeding.

    Both have holes in their game you can drive a truck through. Rick can tolerate some types of holes more than others.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  24. #24

    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    Lets be honest about both of these guys. IMHO, no team is going to win a
    title with either of these two as your starting PF or C. Right now Jeff is just awful period. Whether it is conditioning or whether Jeff will not be the player he was, Jeff really should not be on the floor right now. Jeff's asset to any team is his huslte, Off rebounding and the ability to guard people like Dirk to Tim. Jeff right now has very poor lateral movement and seems hesitant to really throw his body around.

    Austin could be a very good bench player but as we know Austin does not play well when coming off the bench. Austin has to many liabilites to be a starter on a contending team. There are some night's when Austin has a favorable mathup that he really contributes, but other night's he gets abused.
    Austin is a great guy, a great teammate but there is nothing special about Austins game. He is an average shooter, an average rebounder and an average defender. As I said good player off bench, bad as starter.

    As far as our record with Austin in starting lineup, well you also have to consider
    A. Who we played during those wins.
    B. We had Artest playing during some of those wins also.

    I would agree right now if the choice is Austin or Jeff, take Austin.
    I do think the team would be better served to go with DH or Pollard over both
    Jeff or Austin though.

  25. #25
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
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    Default Re: Well you knew I would bring this up

    I knew what this was going to be about before I even opened it, and I agree with you Peck. In fact, at this point, Foster should probably be behind Pollard as well in the rotation.

    We desperately need to trade depth for quality.

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