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Thread: OK... Let's Do It....

  1. #26
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by brichard
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    It isn't going to happen yet, at least I don't think it will. However, I do think it is reasonable to think that we could lose JT or Jax soon. Larry keeps referring to this as an emotional team, and he isn't going to trade JO unless it brings us back a superstar.

    I actually think JT is most likely the person to be moved. He has trade value b/c of his handle. Jax is seen as an expensive hot head and I believe his contract is higher as well. I just don't think Bird has really ever liked JT, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him go.

    Other changes can and will happen. Pollard's contract is running out, Bender will retire, and Artest is gone. I believe Croshere is only has a couple of years on his contract as well. I just don't think you could trade Jack without packaging somebody like JO with him. Otherwise, who would really want him?
    If you think JT and SJax are likely to be moved then why not together? You're saying that Sjax' rep and contract might make him hard to trade alone so you picked JT to go first. Maybe JT is the bargaining chip you need to move Sjax?

    Of course Harrison doesn't seem high on the list of keepers if management and Carlisle are on the same page. I'm not sure whether they are or not tho...

    As I said in another thread- I think we can put the theory to rest that Pollard is being saved for Shaq and other bigs. Why throw him out there at mop-up time against the Mavs if you are saving him and/or worrying about injury?

    So maybe Harrison is in the same boat in Carlisle's plans.

    That said... I saw some horrid defense from him tonight.

    -Bball
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    You might be right. That's what seperates Carlisle from the Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Larry Brown category (well lack of experience too). Those guys could put their best player in a reserve role and convince them it was the best thing for them and the team. Carlisle needs to do the same with SJax if we're to bring in a 2-guard. He needs to stand his ground and try to get the players to almost fear him. If Stephen can't accept the role, then get the eff out! It's not like Stephen couldn't still get 30-35 minutes without starting.
    I don't think he might be right...I am 100% sure that he is right. I seriously doubt that SJax will accept being the backup or 6th player on the team. If all of you get your wish and we end up getting Odom, Harrington or ( worse ) Maggette ( due to his injury issues ), then I guarantee that he will be grumbling to Carlisle about getting more touches.

    If he had the emotional development of an adult...I could see him accepting the role for the sake of the team and playing off the bench as the #1 or #2 scoring option when he is on the floor. But seeing that he has the emotional development of a high school basketball star that feels that he has to dominate the ball in order to get his offense going......I doubt that he can get to that next level.

    I think SJax has the skill to become a #2 scoring option on any team...cuz when he is on...he is on......but I feel that he doesn't have the emotional maturity to make it to that level.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  3. #28
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...512250424/1088

    December 25, 2005

    Pacers Notebook

    By Mike Wells
    mike.wells@indystar.com

    Jackson lets his temper get the best of him

    Indiana Pacers small forward Stephen Jackson is supposed to be one of the team's leaders, a player who is mentally strong and helps keep his teammates' emotions in check. If the first 24 games are any indication, Pacers coach Rick Carlisle and the rest of Jackson's teammates need to do a better job keeping his head in the game.
    Jackson, a streaky player who is moody at times, leads the Pacers with six technical fouls. The rest of the team has a combined seven technicals. Jamaal Tinsley has three, while Carlisle and Jermaine O'Neal have two each. Ron Artest, who is on the inactive list, has none.Jackson, who had six points on 2-of-11 shooting, was ejected for the first time this season in the final seconds of Friday's loss at Cleveland for arguing an offensive foul called against Tinsley.

    Switching things up

    Jeff Foster started at center Friday, but the Pacers' inability to spread the floor with outside shooting prompted Carlisle to go with Austin Croshere, who has started 14 games, at the start of the second half. The Pacers trailed by 12 points at the time.
    "I just decided to go back to Cro to see if we could open up the floor a little bit," Carlisle said.
    "The matchups in the game dictate certain things. Jeff did a good job the first six minutes, and he generally played well. I don't think he was the reason we got behind."
    Foster, who finished with no points and five rebounds in 10 minutes, only played four minutes in the second half. Croshere had four points and three rebounds in 20 minutes.

    Strong outing for Jones

    Guard Fred Jones has only five double-figure scoring games this season, but his past two came when the Pacers needed a lift off the bench.
    Jones scored eight of his 15 points in the fourth quarter Friday when the Pacers fought back from a 16-point deficit at the start of the quarter to tie the score. Jones shot 7-for-7 on his way to 17 points Dec. 8 when the Pacers came from 16 points down to blow out the Wizards.
    "He's been playing with energy. He's been playing with force for the last three weeks," Carlisle said. "He's a difference maker for us."
    This is the very reason why I feel that we should get rid of SJax....the man does not know how to channel his emotions in the right direction and worse....he does not know how to keep his emotions in check.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  4. #29

    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    If you think JT and SJax are likely to be moved then why not together? You're saying that Sjax' rep and contract might make him hard to trade alone so you picked JT to go first. Maybe JT is the bargaining chip you need to move Sjax?

    Of course Harrison doesn't seem high on the list of keepers if management and Carlisle are on the same page. I'm not sure whether they are or not tho...

    As I said in another thread- I think we can put the theory to rest that Pollard is being saved for Shaq and other bigs. Why throw him out there at mop-up time against the Mavs if you are saving him and/or worrying about injury?

    So maybe Harrison is in the same boat in Carlisle's plans.

    That said... I saw some horrid defense from him tonight.

    -Bball
    It is just in some things I've read, everybody knows Jack is a headcase, so why take him? Artest is a headcase who plays great "D" and can score. Right now Jack... is just a headcase... nothing more or less. I think you'd have to sweeten the pot considerably to move him for anything decent, and I don't think JT is enough. Basically we are stuck with him unless he starts playing well again.

    The only argument you could use is "Jack needs a different offense and he'll flourish," otherwise I don't think you can sell it.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    In the perfect world....we would trade SJax to the Nuggets for Watson then trade Tinsley to the Hawks for Josh Childress ( or some other team that needs a PG ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  6. #31
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    I would not exactly rebuild but I would retool. Keep the character guys. I have been saying this from day 1.

    80% of this team's starting lineup on opening day was made up of hotheads who do not have the mental focus, concentration and discipline needed to take this team somewhere. They break plays, whine to the refs, go one on one, whatever! I do not mind the losing if they played hard and played team ball but did not have the talent. This team has no will.

    First off I would trade SJax even moreso than Ron. He is evil to any team trying to become a cohesive unit. He is too selfish and absorbed about himself that he hurts the team a lot. The bad thing is that SJax thinks that all the BS that he does(whining to the refs, getting unncessary Ts, breaking plays, running into the stands, etc)he is doing for the team. He does not have a clue that physical abilities are not enough to make you a good NBA player.

    Ron has to go. Nuff said. The Pacers and Ron had too much happen here that there is no recourse. All Ron sees now is "contract" not "team and championship". So get him out of here soon.

    JO, JT, Harrison - JO and JT are good people who can be moulded and have the heart if they can improve on their focus. Harrison is too young and I would give him some more time.

    SUMMARY - TRADE RON AND SJAX for reasonable talent who do not disrupt team chemistry and we will be all set.

  7. #32
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Reading this thread does nothing but bring up old bad memory's for me.

    We were so close in 00. We would have gone back the following year, maybe we would have lost, maybe we wouldn't have no one can say for sure. But I know we would have been back in the finals.

    We never got back with that other group of players (00-05 teams) & I'm pretty sure unless something drastic changes now we won't go back with this group either.

    This is why you don't blow up teams that are in the NBA finals because there is almost no cookie cutter way to get back there.

    We had the talent after that group to get there but the character was flawed.

    Now we have better character (for the most part) yet we don't seem to have the talent.

    I know my post has nothing to do with anything, but it just hit me watching that Dallas game. We are not in their league.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  8. #33
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Jay has been the profit in the wilderness on this issue and I have semi-quietly been following his lead. We have been saying it was time to dismantle. JAy said it overtly and I casually have hinted at various times that I don't like 4/5 of our straters.

    But now I'm going to ask a question that has really been on my mind. Is it the players or the system? Right players wrong coach or is the make-up just totally flawed? I ask because I look at the players and I don't like what I see attitude -wise but then I ask if their attitude might be better under a less restrictive coach?
    Under another regime (or other franchise) the quickest and cheapest road to take would be to bring in another coach and see how he fares before blowing up the team. But I doubt that happening with the DW/LB management team. I know that a new coach will not suddenly fill our gaps in the frontcourt. He may be able to increase our rebounding some via a different philosophy but he isn't going to make us a tougher "meaner" front court.
    I guess that what I'm trying to ramble into is that I'm really confused by what this group needs. A complete make-over AND a new coaching staff seem to be in order IMO...as of this minute ask me again in an hour.



    My momma said the Pacers are like a box of chocolates. You never know whatcher gonna get until they throw the ball up.
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  9. #34
    Member Tony Valente's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Ok. First of all I should tell you that I don't understand your American type of thinking at all. You simply want to get a player by judging his stats and his character. You give some, take some and hope you are on plus. Here in Europe it's not like that. Here teams are families. Here there is a notion of "player building" inside of his 2nd family called team. You only look at player building in what the rookies and newcommers are concerned. You care about those blending smoothly into the chemistry, into the system. But what about the others? Artest, Jackson, Harrison, they all have rookie brains. They need to be shaped too.

    Stop thinking how Ron hurt the franchise, and start asking yourself how did the team help Ron to become a better player, a better man. Waiting for him one whole season to return and hope his conscience will make him better does apply only for clever guys, which Ron really is not. The team traded a talented player, but a zero as a character. They gave him some place in the team, he responded well and that was it. When Ron finally had a break-down everyone started asking questions, but those questions should have been asked long time before.

    You take players and just hope they will act nicely? Try to prevent such undesired situations. Let me give you an example of what a team means in the world's most popular sport, football (soccer as you call it). Here players spend time together, along with coaches, with medics, with preparators and team bosses. They eat together, go to moveis together, go play pool, swim or whatever. Here a player's second father is the coach. Player goes talk to coach of whatever problem he has, if his nail hurts, if his golden fish passed away, if he didn't like the movie he watched last night and, especially, if he has problems related to the club, the team. In Ron's case he was the one mentioning he didn't talk to the coach much. And who's fault is it? Ron's, yes of course, but especially Rick's, who should have seen the insatisfaction in Ron's eyes. If the mouth doesn't talk, then the eyes do, the gestures do.

    Here football is footballer's life, not a simple "job". He lives for football as long as he plays, then he can rest and spend time with wife, children and whoever he likes. So my point is Ron is just the undesired result of your poor team management. Be 100% sure that any football coach here could tame Ron, and you couldn't. Stop thinking it was Ron the one who broke our Championship dreams. Take it as club's fault, as a bad trade, as the staff didn't make much effort to transform him into a better man.

    Now I wonder who tries to talk to David Harrison, who tries to listen to his problems. He is younger and has more spirit. Now it's the time he needs someone close to him. Instead, you keep saying "let's trade him!". That's not how it goes, really. I don't think Rasheed Wallace is the greatest character ever, but he helped that team a lot and they are now a hell of a team.

    If I don't know the reality there very well please excuse me. Also excuse my faulty English. But I am very sad to see ur team crashed for 2nd time this season by a team we dominated last season (one of the 3 NBA mathes of the Pacers that I watched last season), even when they had Michael Finley. And especially I am tired of all "we should give the opponents credit" quotes and such. There is no "give them credit", it's always "blame us". It was US who lost the game, not THEM winning it.

    Until next time I gladly hope some miracle is made with this team. I hope Ron stays and someone could change him into good, I hope Jonathan recovers from his knee issues, I hope JO learns how to lead a team, I hope Rick learns how to create characters, I hope we will play well, I hope we will be championship contenders again. But all plain empty hopes ...

    Cheers,
    Mihai

  10. #35
    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Valente
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    Ok. First of all I should tell you that I don't understand your American type of thinking at all. You simply want to get a player by judging his stats and his character. You give some, take some and hope you are on plus. Here in Europe it's not like that. Here teams are families. Here there is a notion of "player building" inside of his 2nd family called team. You only look at player building in what the rookies and newcommers are concerned. You care about those blending smoothly into the chemistry, into the system. But what about the others? Artest, Jackson, Harrison, they all have rookie brains. They need to be shaped too.

    Stop thinking how Ron hurt the franchise, and start asking yourself how did the team help Ron to become a better player, a better man. Waiting for him one whole season to return and hope his conscience will make him better does apply only for clever guys, which Ron really is not. The team traded a talented player, but a zero as a character. They gave him some place in the team, he responded well and that was it. When Ron finally had a break-down everyone started asking questions, but those questions should have been asked long time before.

    You take players and just hope they will act nicely? Try to prevent such undesired situations. Let me give you an example of what a team means in the world's most popular sport, football (soccer as you call it). Here players spend time together, along with coaches, with medics, with preparators and team bosses. They eat together, go to moveis together, go play pool, swim or whatever. Here a player's second father is the coach. Player goes talk to coach of whatever problem he has, if his nail hurts, if his golden fish passed away, if he didn't like the movie he watched last night and, especially, if he has problems related to the club, the team. In Ron's case he was the one mentioning he didn't talk to the coach much. And who's fault is it? Ron's, yes of course, but especially Rick's, who should have seen the insatisfaction in Ron's eyes. If the mouth doesn't talk, then the eyes do, the gestures do.

    Here football is footballer's life, not a simple "job". He lives for football as long as he plays, then he can rest and spend time with wife, children and whoever he likes. So my point is Ron is just the undesired result of your poor team management. Be 100% sure that any football coach here could tame Ron, and you couldn't. Stop thinking it was Ron the one who broke our Championship dreams. Take it as club's fault, as a bad trade, as the staff didn't make much effort to transform him into a better man.

    Now I wonder who tries to talk to David Harrison, who tries to listen to his problems. He is younger and has more spirit. Now it's the time he needs someone close to him. Instead, you keep saying "let's trade him!". That's not how it goes, really. I don't think Rasheed Wallace is the greatest character ever, but he helped that team a lot and they are now a hell of a team.

    If I don't know the reality there very well please excuse me. Also excuse my faulty English. But I am very sad to see ur team crashed for 2nd time this season by a team we dominated last season (one of the 3 NBA mathes of the Pacers that I watched last season), even when they had Michael Finley. And especially I am tired of all "we should give the opponents credit" quotes and such. There is no "give them credit", it's always "blame us". It was US who lost the game, not THEM winning it.

    Until next time I gladly hope some miracle is made with this team. I hope Ron stays and someone could change him into good, I hope Jonathan recovers from his knee issues, I hope JO learns how to lead a team, I hope Rick learns how to create characters, I hope we will play well, I hope we will be championship contenders again. But all plain empty hopes ...

    Cheers,
    Mihai

    Nice in theory, but the total culture is different here. First of all we are dealing with multi-millionaire prima-donnas who have been pampered since they were 12 or 13 years old. These guys don't recognize the same authority as you and I. Many don't recognize any authority other than what their desires tell them. Unfortunately the NBA is a STAR based game rather than a team oriented game. The stars of the NBA get the most money and the most opportunity at making even MORE money by making product endorsements.
    What you describe is what our College teams USED to be, unfortunately now they are no longer together long enough to develop that commaraderie.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

  11. #36
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    You might be right. That's what seperates Carlisle from the Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Larry Brown category (well lack of experience too). Those guys could put their best player in a reserve role and convince them it was the best thing for them and the team. Carlisle needs to do the same with SJax if we're to bring in a 2-guard. He needs to stand his ground and try to get the players to almost fear him. If Stephen can't accept the role, then get the eff out! It's not like Stephen couldn't still get 30-35 minutes without starting.

    So you think Phil could convince Kobe that he should be in a reserve role ?

    So you think Pat could convince Shaq he should be in a reserve role

    I highly doubt it

  12. #37

    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Valente
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    So my point is Ron is just the undesired result of your poor team management. Be 100% sure that any football coach here could tame Ron, and you couldn't. Stop thinking it was Ron the one who broke our Championship dreams. Take it as club's fault, as a bad trade, as the staff didn't make much effort to transform him into a better man.

    Overall I agree with your philosophy at some levels. A coach has to be the person who instills the proper fundamentals while also keeping them in check emotionally. However, there are limitations to every coach and exceptions to every rule.

    I really believe that Ron Artest has some certifiable mental issues that need to be treated by a doctor and not a coach. But even doctors are not going to have a 100% cure rate. At some point the player has to be responsible for their own actions.

  13. #38
    Member naptownmenace's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    From the title, I thought this was going to be a Ruben Patterson thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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  14. #39
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Hi Toni Valente!

    You may be right that the Pacers should have taken more care of Artest, but i believe they did just that. They saw him work really hard every day, and thought they had him where they wanted him. Everybody was surprised at the sudden turn Artest made.

    I also would like to correct you on that coach authority thinking regarding football. The picture you gave might be true for young, upcoming players at Steaua Bucarest, but i'm sure you understand that no coach has that kind of authority over any famous player in any sport. It's not like Ballack, Zidane or (for you) Mutu go talking with their coach about everything.

    I have the impression that Carlisle is doing a lot of things wrong though. Stop playing Saras at SG!

  15. #40
    Harmonica
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    We were so close in 00. We would have gone back the following year, maybe we would have lost, maybe we wouldn't have no one can say for sure. But I know we would have been back in the finals.
    If you think we would have made it back to the finals with Isiah as coach, please PM me with the name and phone number of your supplier. Thanks.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    Reading this thread does nothing but bring up old bad memory's for me.

    We were so close in 00. We would have gone back the following year, maybe we would have lost, maybe we wouldn't have no one can say for sure. But I know we would have been back in the finals.

    We never got back with that other group of players (00-05 teams) & I'm pretty sure unless something drastic changes now we won't go back with this group either.

    This is why you don't blow up teams that are in the NBA finals because there is almost no cookie cutter way to get back there.

    We had the talent after that group to get there but the character was flawed.

    Now we have better character (for the most part) yet we don't seem to have the talent.

    I know my post has nothing to do with anything, but it just hit me watching that Dallas game. We are not in their league.
    Just a reminder, that team almost got bounced out of the first round and got bounced by an 8th seed team the year before that. It was getting older and truth be told the players knew their time had come.

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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Harmonica
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    If you think we would have made it back to the finals with Isiah as coach, please PM me with the name and phone number of your supplier. Thanks.
    Actually, I think Isiah would have looked a lot better with a veteran team like we used to have. He had some good ideas, and with a set rotation in place, his weaknesses would not be exposed.

  18. #43
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    I'm so damn glad that you-know-who is on his way out that I'm now Mr. Sunshine.



    I still think more moves are necessary (getting rid of SJax in particular), but now we're finally getting closer to a real (not imagined/ over-hyped) chance at a championship. Clearly, JO has to stay, and I'm not sure how I feel about Tinsley 'cause I keep waffling back-and-forth.

    Yes, it may take some time to gel, and TPTB may be back at the drawing board at the trading deadline and next summer, but we've finally decided to do something about the elephant in the room. So its all good.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #44
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I'm so damn glad that you-know-who is on his way out that I'm now Mr. Sunshine.



    I still think more moves are necessary (getting rid of SJax in particular), but now we're finally getting closer to a real (not imagined/ over-hyped) chance at a championship. Clearly, JO has to stay, and I'm not sure how I feel about Tinsley 'cause I keep waffling back-and-forth.

    Yes, it may take some time to gel, and TPTB may be back at the drawing board at the trading deadline and next summer, but we've finally decided to do something about the elephant in the room. So its all good.
    Right there with you. Admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery. I'm sunshine too and I'm not at all mad about losing a few games to good teams. Mostly, I'm thrilled to pieces that we're finally able to start building a house out of something other than a deck of cards.

    before this, a trophy was impossible. Now, a trophy in the next few years is at least one of the possibilities, and that's a clear improvement.

    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  20. #45
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    I still think more moves are necessary (getting rid of SJax in particular), but now we're finally getting closer to a real (not imagined/ over-hyped) chance at a championship. Clearly, JO has to stay, and I'm not sure how I feel about Tinsley 'cause I keep waffling back-and-forth.
    I would just modify the above to keep Tinsley also for another two years and see if he matures.

    SJax for sure has to go, even before Ron. That is how bad I think he is for this team.

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