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Thread: OK... Let's Do It....

  1. #1
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default OK... Let's Do It....

    We can pretend... cross our fingers... keep telling ourselves we are just waiting on the team to gel... or so and so to heal... or somebody to work himself back into shape... or the new player we acquire to get acclimated to our system.

    But let's get real for a moment. What one player could Mr Walsh possibly bring in here that would correct ALL of the problems? If we get a true SF will we suddenly be rebounding the ball and forcing teams out of their comfort zones?

    Will we quit mismatching our guards?

    Sarunas is not a SG. If it's so important to have him on the court, then play him in position and sit someone.

    Will we suddenly have a center, that we'll play?

    Can we make rebounding a priority?

    So, I vote:
    Yes, to rebuilding.

    This team is a mess. It's a mess of players not quite good enough to play the positions we want or need them playing. A mess of attitudes. It's a lack of maturity. It's not every player, but sometimes I wonder...

    So, let's do it.

    And I'm perfectly fine to consider whether the 'new' team should include this coaching staff. Either the new team needs put together differently, or it's time to rethink the coaching staff.

    Right now we're not a contender this year. And after what I've seen, we're not going to be a contender this season. Let's quit pretending and get on with the rebuilding. We rolled the dice, played the patience game, and it's bit us. If we ride it out this season, we're only going to weaken our chances next season.

    The alarm clock is sounding. Let's not hit the snooze button. Not this time.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Member Isaac's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    We can't start a rebuilding process now, so what exactly are you hoping for? Why not see what kind of player we can get in return for Ron? I agree with you that as of right now we are not a contender, not in any sense. However, our best player is at home lifting weights waiting to be traded. Let's get the best possible return for him and see if we can make this season a cinderella story.

  3. #3
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16663



    Dear Donnie, Larry and the Simons:

    In many ways this is a great opportunity for the Indiana Pacers franshise. Whether you wanted it or not, the franchise stands at a crossroads, that goes much deeper than just Ron Artest. Now is the time to change the entire makeup of the Pacers team.

    Yes Artest has forced your hand, but please don't stop at just trading Artest. For the past 4 years or so the approach was to win with talent. Talent first, character second. Well that has not worked as well as I thought it would. So please trade Artest but also trade Tinsley, Jackson and Harrison. Now is the time to re-make the whole team with players who are completely committed to the "team" Right now there is a unique opportunity that does not come along very often. The Pacers fans will understand a complete make-over and if that means taking a small step back in order to cleanse the franchise, I myself as a season ticket holder will support you.


    I implore you to re-think the entire team, please do not try a patchwork approach to changing the team. Please acquire players who are team first players and winners, players who are selfless.

    I would recommend keeping players who perhaps have less talent, but are totally committed to the idea of playing team ball. That includes players such as Anthony Johnson, Saras, Danny Granger, Jeff Foster, Austin Croshere, and Jermaine O'Neal. Players who only judge themselves on whether the team wins or loses.

    Please include David Harrison in one of the two or three trades that need to be made. He simply won't fit into the "new Pacers". Yes he is talented, but we need to cleanse the franchise of any problems or possible problems.

    I can only speak for myself when I say this, but I will support the franchise during this very difficult time, and I realize a step back my be necessary. The Pacers might not be able to challenge The Pistons or the Spurs this season, but that is OK. Remember be bold and creative. The entire scab needs to be pulled. Complete reconstructive surgery is needed.

    Donnie you have re-made the franchise before and you can do it again, what makes it more difficult is you must remake it during the season.

    Good luck

    Unclebuck

  4. #4
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac@Section216
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    We can't start a rebuilding process now, so what exactly are you hoping for? Why not see what kind of player we can get in return for Ron? I agree with you that as of right now we are not a contender, not in any sense. However, our best player is at home lifting weights waiting to be traded. Let's get the best possible return for him and see if we can make this season a cinderella story.
    Artest is not the only player we need to be trading. So there's no use basing any deals on only what we can get for Artest alone, or Artest and filler. As a matter of fact, maybe we should be keeping Artest on ice and seeing what kind of interest a couple of other players might get and put Artest on the back burner. If the deals for Artest are nothing much anyway (or nothing that helps), why worry about it?

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  5. #5
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    http://www.pacersdigest.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16663



    Dear Donnie, Larry and the Simons:

    In many ways this is a great opportunity for the Indiana Pacers franshise. Whether you wanted it or not, the franchise stands at a crossroads, that goes much deeper than just Ron Artest. Now is the time to change the entire makeup of the Pacers team.
    Good luck

    Unclebuck
    Uncle Buck is my hero...

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Sadly, I have to agree with your comments.

    Throughout last season I got a nagging thought: what if this team bombs next year? What will the repercussions be ? Well, it ain't looking too good at this point. There is no "easy button". I'm even beginning to wonder when Carlisle is going to start feeling some heat (deservedly or not).

    Let's face it. Donnie built this team, for better or worse. I wouldn't be surprised to see him step down at the end of this season. Then we can deal with another another one of my nagging fears....

  7. #7
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    I'm for a mini rebuilding, if that's what it takes.

    Preferablly, I'd do whatever you have to do to get where Saras starts at PG and Granger at SF. Play David a lot, maybe even start him a few. Give him PLENTY of minutes, decide if he can potentially be the starter next year. (I think so.)

    Trade for someone like Pietrus, a SG that is somewhat seasoned but young with potential. Use this year as a crash course for the Saras/Pietrus/Granger/O'Neal/Harrison team and see what happens.


    That's what I'd do anyhow
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    I would recommend keeping players who perhaps have less talent, but are totally committed to the idea of playing team ball. That includes players such as Anthony Johnson, Saras, Danny Granger, Jeff Foster, Austin Croshere, and Jermaine O'Neal. Players who only judge themselves on whether the team wins or loses.
    UB....I completely agree with you here.....rebuild or trade players that will complement JONeal/AJ/Sarunas/Granger/Foster/Croshere. I would include Freddie in there....but it completely depends on whether we will be in a position to resign him....which I don't think we will. As one of the previous threads about Freddie mentioned.....Freddie seems to come out to play and most of all...doesn't complain about playing time or argue with refs.

    This maybe our best chance to make a trade for the type of players that we will need to acquire in order to rebuild around a better team.

    I would love to make a run for the season....but i simply don't think that we will get the type of players that we will need to successfully rebuild around the above mentioned players.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  9. #9
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    My post that I cut and paste into this thread is what I posted the Sunday morning after Ron asked for a trade

  10. #10
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    My post that I cut and paste into this thread is what I posted the Sunday morning after Ron asked for a trade
    I knew it was... It may resonate even more this evening than it did then.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    I'm glad this thread came up because I was about to start something similar.

    My honest opinion is that we need to rebuild, internally. We have all the right players playing all the wrong roles with the exception of Croshere, Granger, Freddy, and Foster. JO is not a center, Sarunas is not a SG, SJax is not a second option, just to name a few.

    I think bringing in a SG that can hit some shots for us (and release the ball quick on jumpers) would open some things up for us. Somebody mentioned Pietrus, and I think he's the perfect fit. We don't need a big time SG like a Ray Allen or a Vince Carter etc. (though it would be nice). We need somebody that's going to hit shots and play team defense.

    SJax is a keeper, just not as a starter (beyond this season), or maybe just not as the 2nd option. He hasn't won a thing as aprimary scoring option. But he has a ring as a role player. That should ring a bell to Carlisle.

    I feel bad for Carlisle right now. I almost feel like this is going to be his last year (leaving on his own terms). I hope not, because he is the perfect coach for this team, he just needs to be able to get the players in the roles they need to play. When you have injuries, suspensions, players that don't want to be here, etc. it becomes harder to run the correct rotation.

    I think it's about time for Donnie and Larry to make life easy for Carlisle and the rest of the team, and go ahead and pull that trigger. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think the Spurs game is the game Donnie and Larry are waiting for as the tell all. I'd be surprised if it doesn't happen after that game.

  12. #12
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    If we do a wholesale rebuild of the team, I would prefer dumping the talent on the bottom feeders sometime in February for their 1st round '07 draft picks...for the hope of picking up Greg Oden. I would let go anyone except JO and Granger.

  13. #13
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    We had our window with this team and it was slammed shut on 11/19/04. It was clear even upon Ron's return early this season that we would never regain what we once had. It was forever lost that night in the stands of the Palace. The damage complete.

  14. #14
    Diesel_81
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ev_eezy
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    SJax is a keeper, just not as a starter (beyond this season), or maybe just not as the 2nd option. He hasn't won a thing as aprimary scoring option. But he has a ring as a role player. That should ring a bell to Carlisle.

    That Steven Jackson is different then the Steven Jackson we have seen over the past two years. The Steven Jackson that played on San Antonio was a high energy player who wanted to defend, even back then he had terrible shot selection but he wasn't a lazy player. The Steven Jackson on this team is lazy. Steven Jackson won't settle for a backup role.

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    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_81
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    Steven Jackson won't settle for a backup role.
    You might be right. That's what seperates Carlisle from the Phil Jackson, Pat Riley, Larry Brown category (well lack of experience too). Those guys could put their best player in a reserve role and convince them it was the best thing for them and the team. Carlisle needs to do the same with SJax if we're to bring in a 2-guard. He needs to stand his ground and try to get the players to almost fear him. If Stephen can't accept the role, then get the eff out! It's not like Stephen couldn't still get 30-35 minutes without starting.

  16. #16
    recap
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    I agree that it is time to make some changes. Even at the beginning of the year with the optimism that I think we all had, I didn't think that our role players were the right pieces to fit around JO and Artest. Without Artest it is even worse.

    To me the only untouchable player on this team is JO. Everyone else can be trade bait as far as I'm concerned. I know that most of us are pretty high on Croshere as well as he's played. Maybe, now we could get something for him if we packaged his huge contract with Artest's more modest contract.

    Tonight, Harrison finally got some time and looked as lost as ever. I would much rather see Pollard get his minutes.

    AJ should be traded only so that Carlisle doesn't have the option of playing him. Last year, for the month that he started when Tins was injured he was great. He can be a great backup pg, but not with Freddie playing sg and definitely not with Sarunas playing sg. Why AJ plays pg when Sarunas is in the game is beyond my powers of comprehension. AJ can only play pg in a situation where a forward is initiating the offense. If we had a point forward type it would be fine. Artest functioned that way at times. Jackson certainly is not the guy to initiate the offense, and Jones dribbles ten seconds off the clock every time he touches the ball.

    I think that Freddie might have some trade value. We need to assess what assets we have and figure out how to blow this team up with as short a rebuild time as possible. The good thing is that as long as we have JO we should never be truly awful.

    It's funny when I read Uncle Buck's description of the type of player that we need it sounded just like what we thought we were getting with Jackson...a multidimensional player who was a decent shooter but could get to the rim and play good defense.

    Sorry to vent, tonight's game frustrated me more than any game in the past several years. I would rather watch the quick offense.

  17. #17
    Tim
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball
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    We can pretend... cross our fingers... keep telling ourselves we are just waiting on the team to gel... or so and so to heal... or somebody to work himself back into shape... or the new player we acquire to get acclimated to our system.

    But let's get real for a moment. What one player could Mr Walsh possibly bring in here that would correct ALL of the problems? If we get a true SF will we suddenly be rebounding the ball and forcing teams out of their comfort zones?

    Will we quit mismatching our guards?

    Sarunas is not a SG. If it's so important to have him on the court, then play him in position and sit someone.

    Will we suddenly have a center, that we'll play?

    Can we make rebounding a priority?

    So, I vote:
    Yes, to rebuilding.

    This team is a mess. It's a mess of players not quite good enough to play the positions we want or need them playing. A mess of attitudes. It's a lack of maturity. It's not every player, but sometimes I wonder...

    So, let's do it.

    And I'm perfectly fine to consider whether the 'new' team should include this coaching staff. Either the new team needs put together differently, or it's time to rethink the coaching staff.

    Right now we're not a contender this year. And after what I've seen, we're not going to be a contender this season. Let's quit pretending and get on with the rebuilding. We rolled the dice, played the patience game, and it's bit us. If we ride it out this season, we're only going to weaken our chances next season.

    The alarm clock is sounding. Let's not hit the snooze button. Not this time.

    -Bball

    How about just fixing the mistake made on August 10, 2004?

    It would take two very big steps.

    Bring Al and Ron back.

    First you go to Atlanta and offer them something they really need, another Big Man. To sweeten the deal offer them young talent.

    Pollard and Granger would be extremely tempting and I think the numbers would match. I hate to let Granger go but the goal here is to get the formula back to something that has proven to work. With those three here Granger's development would slow to almost David Harrison pace. So he would be better off leaving.

    With Ron, Al and JO back together you have reunited the three pillars. JO has drawn the line in the sand but I think getting back to consistent winning would be a welcome trade off to what he is dealing with right now.

    Of course it would be a return to pound ball, some folks here are just not gonna like it, but it was the formula that worked.

    As far as drama goes, winning will contain it somewhat. Ron will still need his occasional attention fix. And there won't be any concerns about Al starting because we will just start Al, Ron would come off the bench and be free to do his thing. It would work, Al will help make it work. Ron actually listened to Al.

    Just think of the 04 team with Cabbage and Jax in the mix, that is a team with a real shot at a ring.

  18. #18
    Harmonica
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim
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    How about just fixing the mistake made on August 10, 2004?

    It would take two very big steps.

    Bring Al and Ron back.

    First you go to Atlanta and offer them something they really need, another Big Man. To sweeten the deal offer them young talent.

    Pollard and Granger would be extremely tempting and I think the numbers would match. I hate to let Granger go but the goal here is to get the formula back to something that has proven to work. With those three here Granger's development would slow to almost David Harrison pace. So he would be better off leaving.

    With Ron, Al and JO back together you have reunited the three pillars. JO has drawn the line in the sand but I think getting back to consistent winning would be a welcome trade off to what he is dealing with right now.

    Of course it would be a return to pound ball, some folks here are just not gonna like it, but it was the formula that worked.

    As far as drama goes, winning will contain it somewhat. Ron will still need his occasional attention fix. And there won't be any concerns about Al starting because we will just start Al, Ron would come off the bench and be free to do his thing. It would work, Al will help make it work. Ron actually listened to Al.

    Just think of the 04 team with Cabbage and Jax in the mix, that is a team with a real shot at a ring.
    Like I said...

    We had our window with this team and it was slammed shut on 11/19/04. It was clear even upon Ron's return early this season that we would never regain what we once had. It was forever lost that night in the stands of the Palace. The damage complete.

    We can never go back.

  19. #19
    Member Evan_The_Dude's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim
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    How about just fixing the mistake made on August 10, 2004?

    It would take two very big steps.

    Bring Al and Ron back.

    First you go to Atlanta and offer them something they really need, another Big Man. To sweeten the deal offer them young talent.

    Pollard and Granger would be extremely tempting and I think the numbers would match. I hate to let Granger go but the goal here is to get the formula back to something that has proven to work. With those three here Granger's development would slow to almost David Harrison pace. So he would be better off leaving.

    With Ron, Al and JO back together you have reunited the three pillars. JO has drawn the line in the sand but I think getting back to consistent winning would be a welcome trade off to what he is dealing with right now.

    Of course it would be a return to pound ball, some folks here are just not gonna like it, but it was the formula that worked.

    As far as drama goes, winning will contain it somewhat. Ron will still need his occasional attention fix. And there won't be any concerns about Al starting because we will just start Al, Ron would come off the bench and be free to do his thing. It would work, Al will help make it work. Ron actually listened to Al.

    Just think of the 04 team with Cabbage and Jax in the mix, that is a team with a real shot at a ring.

    It's not going to happen and the franchise wouldn't move backwards like that (even though they did for Mark Jackson). Besides, the only way to complete that would be to bring back Reggie too. He was a major part of that after all. But we all know that situation...

  20. #20
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    JO, Granger, Sarunas, and Croshere. Those four should stay. Croshere is iffy. The first three are absolutely untouchable. Whatever happens with the rest of the team can only be for the better. We know the talent is there, but not the consistency, and that's what you need to be a real contender. We'd be lucky at this point to beat the Cavs in a 7 game series. I'll be happy with a record over .500 this year. This team does need retooled. I'd try to keep Hulk, too, but that's because he's young.

    If we're really serious about this championship thing, it needs to start right now, and it can't stop at Ron.
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  21. #21
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim
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    How about just fixing the mistake made on August 10, 2004?

    It would take two very big steps.

    Bring Al and Ron back.
    Harmonica has pretty muched covered it but I'll go a little deeper. First, I think Danny Granger has a bigger upside than Al Harrington BUT if your moves would equal an immediate championship run, then screw the upside. I'm about the here and now.

    But there's a second piece to your puzzle.... bringing Ron back. The only way I'd even consider it was if JO was gone. And I wouldn't trade JO just to make a spot for Ron. Not now. I'm simply saying IF a move presented itself wholly unrelated to the Artest situation and JO was moved, I might think about letting the new team vote on Artest's return (if I was having troubling moving him as-is). That's not to say I'd do it... I'd think about.... And if Carlisle is still the coach then I still might decide the potential downside to team unity is too great. But at this point I can't envision this team moving JO so there's really no scenario I can see where Artest could be welcomed back. No way can JO and Ron ever coexist. So there's no real point in considering Artest's return. It's just not going to happen and I can understand it.

    -Bball
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  22. #22
    Diesel_81
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim
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    How about just fixing the mistake made on August 10, 2004?

    .
    Management did make a couple of mistakes in August of 2004. The first big mistake they made was they traded the wrong forward and the second mistake was trading for Steven Jackson.

    That being said I don't think your idea is going to work since Ron doesn't want to be here. Ron asked to be traded and even though know one knows for sure I doubt that players would actually accept him back. Secondly I wouldn't be willing to throw in Granger for Al Harrington and I loved Al when he was here. Granger is one of the few guys on this team along with Oneal, Austin Croshere, and Saras that play hard every night on the court.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    I don't know how anyone can be untouchable. Obviously, Reggie was untouchable when he was here, because he was the face of the franchise. JO is untouchable, because we could never, ever get close to equal value. But everyone else, Granger and Sarunas included, should be put out there if the right deal comes along.

    Diesel, are you saying (hypothetically) that if the Sonics said they would give us Ray Allen for Artest, Foster (or Croshere), and Granger that you wouldn't do it? Danny Granger is a good rookie, and he might be a great second option on a good team someday, but he is not Lebron, and will never be in that category (obviously, I would love to be wrong about that).

  24. #24
    Diesel_81
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    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    Quote Originally Posted by recap
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    I don't know how anyone can be untouchable. Obviously, Reggie was untouchable when he was here, because he was the face of the franchise. JO is untouchable, because we could never, ever get close to equal value. But everyone else, Granger and Sarunas included, should be put out there if the right deal comes along.

    Diesel, are you saying (hypothetically) that if the Sonics said they would give us Ray Allen for Artest, Foster (or Croshere), and Granger that you wouldn't do it? Danny Granger is a good rookie, and he might be a great second option on a good team someday, but he is not Lebron, and will never be in that category (obviously, I would love to be wrong about that).

    Actually I said I wouldn't give him up for Al Harrington. If Ray Allen/Paul Pierce/Tracy McGrady was offered of course I would be willing to trade Granger. Im very high on Granger and would like for him to stay on this team I think he has a tremendous amount of upside and I would rather rid this team of the cancers like Artest,Jackson,Harrison and possibly Tinsley before we give up on guys that play hard like Saras and Granger.

  25. #25

    Default Re: OK... Let's Do It....

    It isn't going to happen yet, at least I don't think it will. However, I do think it is reasonable to think that we could lose JT or Jax soon. Larry keeps referring to this as an emotional team, and he isn't going to trade JO unless it brings us back a superstar.

    I actually think JT is most likely the person to be moved. He has trade value b/c of his handle. Jax is seen as an expensive hot head and I believe his contract is higher as well. I just don't think Bird has really ever liked JT, so I wouldn't be surprised to see him go.

    Other changes can and will happen. Pollard's contract is running out, Bender will retire, and Artest is gone. I believe Croshere is only has a couple of years on his contract as well. I just don't think you could trade Jack without packaging somebody like JO with him. Otherwise, who would really want him?

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