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One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

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  • #16
    Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offen

    Originally posted by BillS
    WE SUCK AT THE PICK AND ROLL!

    Let me say that again, with feeling.

    WE SUCK AT THE PICK AND ROLL!

    .
    Why exactly do you think that is? You have a ball-handler with a tremendous feel for the game. You have big men that can shoot out to 18 feet.

    Seems to me like maybe they just need to practice that instead of running a damn flex offense that can be run by a 7th grader.

    Rick's running a high school offense with professional players.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

      Hey I have been *****ing about this offense and wishing they had Hired Byron instead since about the first week Rick got here. Dont try and pretend that people did not question this offense prior to Ron comenting on it.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

        You need to be able to both open it up offensively and play possession ball...depending on the situation and the team your playing thats what makes the Spurs so good...they can play any style...they out ran the Suns last year in POs and then beat the Pistons with a more clamp down style.

        The key is having players you can trust to make the right decisions on the court.

        Opening up the offense doesn't mean whoever has the ball past half court first jacks up a 3.

        During our 61 win season we did alot more to get easy baskets early... off missed shots or turnovers...which was often JO or Ron sealing their man or Jamaal backing his man down and getting easy post up opportunities before the D could double.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

          I don't think it really has a thing to do with whether we run a 1/2 court offense or not. Oh sure, today's players like to run more than play the 1/2 court offense. That much is true.

          But I think the real issue is buy-in, ownership and being heard.

          When you listen to suggestions from your underlings, and constantly dismiss them, instead demanding that your game plan be carried out, then you really don't build goodwill among the troops. And you sure as hell don't accomplish buy-in and provide for maximum pleasure in the workplace. But again... that is how the vast majority of SMALL businesses are run.

          Usually, the more empowerment you give to the underlings, the more buy-in to the plan you will accomplish. And the more fun the underlings are going to have.


          It's up to the chief to provide the limits of the freedom and to know when to reel it in a little so that mass chaos does not ensue.

          Bottom line is, I think Carlisle could open it up a little, a lot like he did with AJ for the one game several weeks ago. At times, the players are perfectly capable of calling the shots during the flow of the game. Everything does not need to be dictated from the bench.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

            I think this team needs a floor general which is exactly what Sarunas brings. Therefore, I am not thrilled with him playing SG but I've had to miss the last couple of games so maybe he's merely SG in name rather than how he's being used.

            I'd like to see Carlisle throw away the egg timer he uses for subsitutions. Of course he did that in the Miami game and Tinsley caught sinupoutinitis. I don't like seeing players pulled after 1 bad shot or pass if overall they are playing good. OTOH, I don't like seeing players pulled who are playing well, and the team playing well, just because the egg timer says it's time for a change.

            And when you do bring in the second wave and give the starters/others a break, don't use an egg timer to decide when to bring the players back in. Use the flow of the game to decide (this is where I especially have a problem with the egg timer).

            But this is where we need players who accept that role whatever it may be. If the team is doing good without them on a given night then the coach shouldn't feel he has to put any certain individual(s) back in just because that person hasn't gotten his usual minutes or needs a few more points to make his average. The coach should feel no pressure to insert a player in the lineup based on their 'happiness' or level of 'sinupoutnitis'. He should be able to coach the flow of the game and put petty 'me-ism' issues aside. Not worry who is going to pout, whine, or cry in the lockerroom or break pictures in the hallway.

            -Bball
            Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

            ------

            "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

            -John Wooden

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

              Originally posted by beast23
              I don't think it really has a thing to do with whether we run a 1/2 court offense or not. Oh sure, today's players like to run more than play the 1/2 court offense. That much is true.

              But I think the real issue is buy-in, ownership and being heard.

              When you listen to suggestions from your underlings, and constantly dismiss them, instead demanding that your game plan be carried out, then you really don't build goodwill among the troops. And you sure as hell don't accomplish buy-in and provide for maximum pleasure in the workplace. But again... that is how the vast majority of SMALL businesses are run.

              Usually, the more empowerment you give to the underlings, the more buy-in to the plan you will accomplish. And the more fun the underlings are going to have.


              It's up to the chief to provide the limits of the freedom and to know when to reel it in a little so that mass chaos does not ensue.

              Bottom line is, I think Carlisle could open it up a little, a lot like he did with AJ for the one game several weeks ago. At times, the players are perfectly capable of calling the shots during the flow of the game. Everything does not need to be dictated from the bench.
              You summed up exactly what I'm trying to say. Thank you!

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

                Originally posted by Mr._Basketball
                It means that if Carlisle doesn't give a little on his end, this won't be the last player openly stating that he doesn't want to play for him. He's losing "buy-in" by not taking the players' opinions seriously.

                As it affects the actual offensive gameplan, all it takes is getting a few more pick-and-roll sets in the offense..hell thats like candy for basketball players. Players relish the opportunity to run the pick-and-roll...they want to get a mismatch out on the wing or post up on a smaller man or get open jumpers.

                The worst part about it is that with Tinsley and JO, you have a perfect pick-and-roll tandem and I never see it....

                They run it all the time, not very well, but they run it

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offen

                  Originally posted by vapacersfan
                  Re-read my post.

                  I said one or two people.

                  Not that it matters, but the two people I thought of were you and Tim.

                  There were lots of people last year *****ing about the 'throw it to JO and watch' offense.

                  -Bball
                  Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                  ------

                  "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                  -John Wooden

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

                    I've got these Bob Hill quotes in my signature because I've been tired or Rick's "call every possession, milk the shotclock" approach.

                    But I agree that we don't really have players I'd trust with a more open approach.

                    So where's that get us?

                    Bring back Bo Hill.

                    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
                    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
                    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
                    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
                    And life itself, rushing over me
                    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
                    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offen

                      Originally posted by Mr._Basketball
                      Why exactly do you think that is? You have a ball-handler with a tremendous feel for the game.
                      Which one? The one that is injured all the time or the one that is so far one of the few positives on the floor and yet still has nights where he can't find the rim?

                      Originally posted by Mr._Basketball
                      You have big men that can shoot out to 18 feet.
                      That would be, shoot 30% from 18 feet?

                      Originally posted by Mr._Basketball
                      Seems to me like maybe they just need to practice that instead of running a damn flex offense that can be run by a 7th grader.
                      I won't disagree about the practice, though the thought of having to run pros through pick and roll workouts is a little apalling to me. There are more pick and rolls being run on the floor than you seem to believe - they just fall apart so spectacularly they become almost unrecognizable.

                      And, if the flex offense can be run by a 7th grader, why can't it be run successfully here?

                      I'll answer that - because even 7th graders have to be credible from both outside and inside OR be able to totally overpower the defense in some area for any offense to work.

                      Until our outside shooting spreads the defense, the only free-flow opportunities we'll have will still be from the perimeter. If our outside shooting spreads the defense, our set plays will be able to work better and perhaps Rick won't have to worry about screwing up a possession in order for Jax to make a bad decision.

                      Bottom line here is that there are very few players on this team I would trust with the decisions needed, and as long as we continue to have to play from behind even freeing up a few possessions so the team can have 'fun' is dangerous.

                      Winning is 'fun'. Getting the opportunity to run your own offense and make spectacular mistakes while blowing game after game can't be nearly that much fun.
                      BillS

                      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
                      Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offen

                        Originally posted by Unclebuck
                        I read things like they need to "open up" the offense. What in the heck does that mean.

                        There are only two types of halfcourt offense run in the NBA. Read and react type offense or set play type offense. Clearly Rick runs a set play type offense.

                        Flip Saunders, Phil Jackson, Rick Adelman, Byron Scott to name a few run a read and react type offense. Ask the Laker fans how that is working. But to run a read and react type offense you have to have very smart players.
                        Yup. We just need to get players who will actually run the play called, and not break it.
                        You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offen

                          Originally posted by Mr._Basketball
                          Why exactly do you think that is? You have a ball-handler with a tremendous feel for the game. You have big men that can shoot out to 18 feet.

                          Seems to me like maybe they just need to practice that instead of running a damn flex offense that can be run by a 7th grader.

                          Rick's running a high school offense with professional players.

                          First off, you have a ballhandler who has no clue how to run a pick and roll. Tinsley is a one-on-one point guard. He does not play the 2-man game well at all. He likes being isolated with his defender, and bringing an extra defender over to him seems to confuse him and irritate him.

                          I don't think Tinsley ran a single pick and roll at Iowa St. His first time doing it in his entire life was probably the NBA.

                          It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                          Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                          Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                          NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

                            As for Rick's offense..... I did say this would happen, and the forum welcomed it with open arms, because ALL of you were completely fed up with Zeke's undisciplined style. Not %80, not %90, ALL of you. Now Rick is too discplined? Come on. THAT'S WHAT YOU BROUGHT HIM HERE FOR.

                            I'm not going to lie and say it's fun to watch. But Neither was Larry Brown's "offensive coaching for dummies" style. They both won a lot of games.

                            I'm going to come out and say it: I don't think Indiana has enough continuity for a wide-open offense. They have a lot more defenders than they do scorers. They also have a lot of guys that are reluctant to pass the ball, which you can't have if you're going to put the ball in their hands 50 times a game. In a flex offense, for example, the average player will pass the ball twice as much as he shoots it. It's all about moving the ball from side to side to get the open man the ball faster than the defense can react.

                            It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

                            Division Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 1989, 1990, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008
                            Conference Champions 1955, 1956, 1988, 2005
                            NBA Champions 1989, 1990, 2004

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offense

                              Originally posted by Kstat
                              As for Rick's offense..... I did say this would happen, and the forum welcomed it with open arms, because ALL of you were completely fed up with Zeke's undisciplined style. Not %80, not %90, ALL of you. Now Rick is too discplined? Come on. THAT'S WHAT YOU BROUGHT HIM HERE FOR.

                              I'm not going to lie and say it's fun to watch. But Neither was Larry Brown's "offensive coaching for dummies" style. They both won a lot of games.

                              I'm going to come out and say it: I don't think Indiana has enough continuity for a wide-open offense. They have a lot more defenders than they do scorers. They also have a lot of guys that are reluctant to pass the ball, which you can't have if you're going to put the ball in their hands 50 times a game. In a flex offense, ofr example, the average players will pass the ball twice as much as he shoots it. It's all about moving the ball from side to side to get the open man the ball faster than the defense can react.
                              This is true Kstat. But its getting better by the game. Just last night, when Jackson got injured, the team passed and moved the ball much better. Granger hit the open shot finally and the passing actually happened.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: One problem solved, still one to go: The players do not enjoy playing this offen

                                Originally posted by Kstat
                                As for Rick's offense..... I did say this would happen, and the forum welcomed it with open arms, because ALL of you were completely fed up with Zeke's undisciplined style.
                                That's not exactly true. The chorus was getting awfully loud from those against Isiah but he still had some supporters... still does for that matter.



                                Not %80, not %90, ALL of you. Now Rick is too discplined? Come on. THAT'S WHAT YOU BROUGHT HIM HERE FOR.

                                See above...



                                I'm not going to lie and say it's fun to watch. But Neither was Larry Brown's "offensive coaching for dummies" style. They both won a lot of games.

                                I'm going to come out and say it: I don't think Indiana has enough continuity for a wide-open offense.

                                And now the shoe is on the other foot because I do remember Piston fans (can't say which side you fell on) during Rick's time there arguing for a more open offense and Pacer fans saying "you don't have the horses for it and Rick is milking what you do have".

                                I'm not sure what that means unless someone wants to argue that Carlisle regresses and holds back his teams on the offensive end to the point they fall off the offensive radar.

                                Our team is not put together well, and I don't think Carlisle has complete control or attention of the team. So whether we're seeing exactly what he wants from them, or what he's forced to accept or watch some players totally unravel, is a question that I have.

                                -Bball
                                Nuntius was right for a while. I was wrong for a while. But ultimately I was right and Frank Vogel has been let go.

                                ------

                                "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

                                -John Wooden

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