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Thread: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    I am waiting to see how many people trumpet last nights loss as a sign of things to come. I know you are out there & even if you don't post it I know you are thinking it.

    All that the game vs. Boston confirmed for me was the one belief that I have held for a long long time.

    All five players on the floor must be able to score. That does not mean they have to be scorers but you cannot ever have a one or even two man team unless you happen to have either His Airness or the Stilt on your squad.

    At differing intervals during the game we had either Jeff Foster or Fred Jones on the floor. Yes I know Fred finally provided some form of offense in the 4th quarter but up until then he litterally was invisible.

    I know many will laugh but I think if Austin Croshere & Jamaal Tinsley were there this would have been a differant game.

    I know there is a love fest for Foster out there but I just want to state again for the record. Jermaine O'Neal & Austin Croshere work much better together because they offer the entire package & while some will argue that Foster has a defensive edge (I don't believe it but whatever) Austin is worlds away better on the offensive end of the floor. Our defense wasn't that bad, we had some lapses for sure but overall it wasn't the worst defense I've ever seen played.

    But our times of going 6-7 min. without scoring a fieldgoal is just maddening.

    Foster offers nothing on the offensive end of the floor & I am of the opinion that the reason he garners so many offensive rebounds is because nobody has to guard him so they often forget he is even there.

    But I'm not here to complain about Jeff because he is still trying to catch his wind out there & in no way do I place the loss on him. I'm not sure there is any real reason that this was a loss other than poor shooting, lack of any dribble penetration & no post offense oh & poor rebounding, but other than that it was perfect.

    I'm not worried about this game at all because I never really felt we were totally out of it till the end & I just have to think that we are not going to shoot 33% from the field as a team very often.

    I really was impressed with the defensive traps we were playing & our rotations were more crisp than they have been in a long while. I just don't think defense lost this one for us guys.

    On the other hand our guards could not penetrate at all & we often looked as though we were starting our offense beyond the three point arc.

    I know this is where we all get a chance to pitch a bitc# at A.J. because there were a couple of times he took almost 10 sec. to even get to the 3/4 hash mark on the floor to even try & set up our offense.

    But for as bad as he was last night Saras was worse. How he only accounted for 2 T.O.'s is beyond me. It seemed as though all night long his passes were either wide or short & going 2-10 from 3 point range does not thrill me with any player. I know he can shoot it & at certain points last night he was trying to get the team going but that was a little much. Also Dalonte West abused him defensively. The Celtics obviously had Saras scouted very well & learned real quick that they could crowd him in the corner & he would be far less effective & thus chuck up some wild shots.

    I'm not down on him, but I'm just trying to be honest. It's the first real game he's had that I wasn't very happy with his overall play.

    Granger also was a little dissapointing because I figured he would be a lot more active. However he played a lot of his time at the 4 spot & I just don't think that is a wise thing for Carlisle to do with him. The guy will be a killer 3 but he's a little undersized at the 4. But for some damn reason Carlisle is in love with this new small ball craze so I guess we just have to trust him on that.

    It was good to see David get some meaningfull time on the floor. He looked very happy when he came in the game & as usual he was a bundle of energy on the defensive end & was damn lucky the refs. for whatever reason were swallowing their whistles when he was on the floor because there were several plays that he was like a wrecking ball. I know he didn't have any rebounds which is dissapointing but I want to point out again that the guy caused two defensive rebounds by totally eclipsing Al Jefferson & Kedrick Perkins with his wide body. S.Jax was the benefactor of one board & Saras was the other.

    I wish they would have tried to go to him in the post a couple of more times because my beleif is that Boston could not have stopped him. But then my belief is that very few teams could stop the Hulk down low.

    Fred Jones just cannot go that long on the floor & be that useless. If he is going to be the shooting guard then for God's sake take the ball & do something with it. I'm not saying to force it but he needs to make something happen out there.

    I'm not upset with Jermaine. He has been a Warrior since early in the season & he is allowed a down game. He still grabbed 10 boards so no complaints there. The only constructive criticism I have for him would be to not settle for the jumpers they give you so readily.

    I still say he is better when he is playing center. I also still say he is better when he plays with Croshere.

    But other than that, it was just a game. There are some things to take away from this but by no means should this be any cause for any Pacers fan to give up on the season. We still were missing two key ingrediants & we still have a couple of young players that will still need some time to find thier way.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck
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    All that the game vs. Boston confirmed for me was the one belief that I have held for a long long time.

    All five players on the floor must be able to score. That does not mean they have to be scorers but you cannot ever have a one or even two man team unless you happen to have either His Airness or the Stilt on your squad.

    At differing intervals during the game we had either Jeff Foster or Fred Jones on the floor. Yes I know Fred finally provided some form of offense in the 4th quarter but up until then he litterally was invisible.

    I know many will laugh but I think if Austin Croshere & Jamaal Tinsley were there this would have been a differant game.

    I'm not upset with Jermaine. He has been a Warrior since early in the season & he is allowed a down game. He still grabbed 10 boards so no complaints there. The only constructive criticism I have for him would be to not settle for the jumpers they give you so readily.

    I still say he is better when he is playing center. I also still say he is better when he plays with Croshere.
    Peck, I completely agree with your entire post. Not sure I've ever been that in synch before, but I especially agree with your Foster/Croshere comments above.

    As I was watching, all I could wonder was why in the heck is Foster in the starting lineup?? Our offense went to hell and nobody looked like they knew what they were doing.

    Also agree that JO is better at center and better with Croshere on the floor. We really missed him tonight.

    Water

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    I disagree with Croshere better than Foster. There were a couple times that Jeff got passes thrown to him and he didn't catch them because he was off his game. The guy hasn't been back long at all, give him a break.

    As far as Sarunas, yeah he wasn't playing all that well. Same with AJ and Fred and just about every player on the team really. With everything that's been going on, I pretty much expected the game to go one of two ways; either really good for us or really bad. One positive we can take out of this game is that perhaps other teams will look at how bad we played and look at it as a sign of how good Artest is and thus want to trade for him even more.

    Every Rookie has their struggles, and really we would be foolish if we didn't accept that Danny and Sarunas won't have bad games. Hopefully both players will figure out what they were doing wrong, and they will figure out how to contribute to the game when their shots are off (mainly pointed at Sarunas).

    I know people hate hearing this, but give things time. There's bound to be some good and some poor games now that the Pacers are missing Artest (and since they were missing Tinsley and Croshere). Just look at how the Rockets were without T-Mac, they were terrible. I don't expect us to play that bad, but I do expect there to be some major hurdles to overcome.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Again with the Cro vs Foster thing.

    Peck, don't forget I came out maybe two weeks ago and said Croshere should start instead of Foster, so I'm not even going there.

    Overall the Celtics played great defense. I was really impressed. Their style was perfect. Pressure the guards, crowd J.O, crowd Saras, don't let Jax get into a rhythm.

    Yes Tinsley would have helped last night, but he is injured and is unable to play. He is very injury prone, and sickness prone. We can argue all day long the merits of Tinsley's play, but the major problem is not how Tnsley plays, but whether he can play. Does anyone have any confidence at all that he'll be healthy for more than 15 games straight. OK, let's say he plays Friday night. What is the over-under on the next game hs misses. What 10 or 15 games. You know he'll either get sick or have some type of leg injury. I'm not questioning the validility of the sickness or injury, but no one can argue that he doesn't miss too many games.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    "The only constructive criticism I have for him would be to not settle for the jumpers they give you so readily."

    He shot the jumpers because his dunks weren't dropping.

    I think all you can say about this game is if AJ was the player of the game we were in deep doo doo all night.
    But an hour or so later, Hibbert wrote on his Twitter account: "Love this coach [and] I love this team. We can go far this year if we play like that. 2night we played our hearts out. Just didn't get the win."

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Again with the Cro vs Foster thing.

    Peck, don't forget I came out maybe two weeks ago and said Croshere should start instead of Foster, so I'm not even going there.

    Overall the Celtics played great defense. I was really impressed. Their style was perfect. Pressure the guards, crowd J.O, crowd Saras, don't let Jax get into a rhythm.

    Yes Tinsley would have helped last night, but he is injured and is unable to play. He is very injury prone, and sickness prone. We can argue all day long the merits of Tinsley's play, but the major problem is not how Tnsley plays, but whether he can play. Does anyone have any confidence at all that he'll be healthy for more than 15 games straight. OK, let's say he plays Friday night. What is the over-under on the next game hs misses. What 10 or 15 games. You know he'll either get sick or have some type of leg injury. I'm not questioning the validility of the sickness or injury, but no one can argue that he doesn't miss too many games.
    Again, I agree with UB (this is becoming quite constant...)

    Croshere gives the Pacers one important aspect that Foster doesnt - shooting. That opens the floor on offense and allows a better offensive flow. It allows for pick-n-rolls where that picker slides outside for an open shot. Foster doesn't do that. Maybe Foster is slightly better on the boards, but he's pretty much 1-dimensional, and that hurts an offense which is already playing at 40% of its guns. Cro would've made a huge difference in Boston.

    BTW - Cro is leading the team in +/- per game. More than Artest, more tha JO and more than Saras. That just about says it all.

    About Tinsley - enuf is enuf. Trade him along with Artest and get something decent back. Saras & AJ can both play PG. He's become unreliable, as UB pointed out, and thus obsolete.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    It's not fair to compare a rejuvenated Croshere to an out of shape Foster. Give Croshere a couple weeks to see how he does long-term, and give Foster a couple weeks to get into shape, and re-assess then.

    I should point out that the Pistons do just fine without having Ben Wallace slide out on a pick for a jumper. Of course, he's a better defender, but we're talking about offense.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    I only saw the 2nd half. I heard some of the 1st and listened to MJB the 2nd half while watching. My thoughts at the time were JO was playing 1 on 3 because we didn't have any other front line players out there. EVERYBODY seemed to be camped on the perimeter and leaving JO to do the grunt work by himself. I am flabbergasted that the rebound totals were as close as they were, it sure didn't look it during the game.

    We desperately need a rebounder. I love Jeff to death but we need a bruiser that makes others work for their rebounds so it wears them down.
    We need a Dale Davis type enforcer, someone that makes the opposition think before driving the lane. W/o Ron in there the C's had no fear of our interior defense. Hell, they had no fear of our defense period and I think that may become a trend...the fear factor is gone from the Pacers. A few weeks ago we were talking about us being a bit soft and now we've gotten a whole lot softer in the eyes of the other teams. They will not see us as someone to fear, and that is why I think it is imperative that TPTB move as quickly as possible so this team can re-establish an identity.
    We still need a 2nd scoring option...I just don't have faith in Jax as a full time Tonto.
    So, we need a bruiser inside...a SF that can defend...and a consistent 2nd option scoring threat.
    I see a need for a 2, a 3, and a 5. Have I mentioned anywhere that I think its time to move Jax? Well, it's time to move Jax...and Freddie. And Sarunas is a PG I don't like him at the SG full-time he needs the ball to be effective as an assist man. He's fine for relief work at the SG but keep him at the point and put the ball in his hands.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    What the Pacers need to do is get a better medical staff and find a way to get Tinsley healthy and keep him that way. Becuase last night is a sign of things to come if they trade Tinsley.

    There is almost nothing left to say about AJ and his inability to run the point. Most of you can see it. Why cant Rick?

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    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    What is Carlisle honestly doing with Sarunas at SG? We all know Sarunas needs the ball in his hands to be effective and you can almost tell Sarunas hates letting AJ bring the ball up.

    Carlisle is an idiot. David Harrison looked real solid to me last night, boxing people out and such. We need size. DH should get at least 15 minutes a game.

    Saras, Fred, Sjack, Jermaine, Foster

    Should of been the starting line up last night, but it wouldn't of even mattered. I am so sick of AJ and Saras on the floor together, it is just not good.

    I wish Fred Jones would start, freddy is totally a confidence player. Like when he had that dunk and two threes. Imagine if we EVER tried to run a fast break and got Freddy some dunks??

    Maybe we could trade Fred Jones for Eddie House to the suns. Fred would absolutely flourish in Phoenix. I like Fred's game but he doesn't fit with Carlisle's system at all. But then again...who does. Jermaine?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    I love Carlisle as a coach. I think he did incredible his first two seasons here. I have some problems with his system though...

    We have the players to be more of an uptempo squad, but we don't utilize it. With Saras, Freddie, SJax, Tinsley, etc... We should be getting way more fast-break points. Second, I don't think that dump-the-ball-into-Jermaine is the best we can do on offense. I know JO is one of the better PF's in the league, but if all we do is dump him the ball then we become entirely too predictable. I wish Rick would open up the offense some and let the players play, instead of having everything carefully structured... Our guys are talented enough for it to work.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Theodore
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    What is Carlisle honestly doing with Sarunas at SG? We all know Sarunas needs the ball in his hands to be effective and you can almost tell Sarunas hates letting AJ bring the ball up.

    Carlisle is an idiot. David Harrison looked real solid to me last night, boxing people out and such. We need size. DH should get at least 15 minutes a game.

    Saras, Fred, Sjack, Jermaine, Foster

    Should of been the starting line up last night, but it wouldn't of even mattered. I am so sick of AJ and Saras on the floor together, it is just not good.

    I wish Fred Jones would start, freddy is totally a confidence player. Like when he had that dunk and two threes. Imagine if we EVER tried to run a fast break and got Freddy some dunks??

    Maybe we could trade Fred Jones for Eddie House to the suns. Fred would absolutely flourish in Phoenix. I like Fred's game but he doesn't fit with Carlisle's system at all. But then again...who does. Jermaine?
    I am not sure why DH is not getting minutes either. It must be some non-basketball reason. He changes the game in the middle for us. He would open things up for JO down low. Then, Jermaine would not have to bang with the biggest bodies. DH can also nail the 10 foot jump shot. He is the C we need on the floor against a bigger team like Boston. Foster is fine against a quicker line-up once he is healthy, but DH should have been on the floor for 30 minutes last night. I am sure there is something I do not know, because DH on the bench in that situation makes no sense. This is just December. THIS is the time when he needs to get experience!

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    How many 3's did we shoot last night?

    Shame on us.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    How many 3's did we shoot last night?

    Shame on us.

    Yes 26 is too many. But the Celtics defense had a lot to do with that

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck
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    Yes 26 is too many. But the Celtics defense had a lot to do with that
    I didn't think so.

    We settled for what they wanted us to do. We could've been more aggressive.

    JO was ice cold, so it might not have mattered. But we were settling on offense instead of being the aggressor.

    That small-ball lineup was pretty much crap, too. I know it was by necessity but if Rick doesn't get that out of his system soon its going to be a long winter.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #16
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    While arguing the particulars of this game does have some appeal, My biggest case is that there was 0 chances in a million chances that we would win the first game after the "news."

    Until the deal is done and the new players are moved in and here for a week or two, I don't expect our guys to win many game if any at all.

    I do really like the Celtics TV announcers, though. They are down right conversational in their tone. Finally, some guys who don't scream into the mic.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay@Section204
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    We settled for what they wanted us to do. We could've been more aggressive.
    See, and that's why I think this up-tempo thing is a fallacy.

    When the team is given its head and tries to play up-tempo, they almost all go for jumpers rather than driving to the basket.

    Now, I didn't see the game last night (I needed a break and also didn't want to be cursing while I was decorating our tree), but I'd be willing to bet that even when the opportunity to get to the basket presented itself we pulled up and went fot the outside shot - and from the number of 3-point attempts, I'd be willing to put money on it (though those also happen when we pass the ball around the perimeter and run out of shot clock).

    We have too many people in love with the BOOM of the 3 instead of buckling down to work on getting a consistent 2 points every posession.

    In other games we start to lose ground by going for the kill by running and gunning from 3-point land. We start to get back into it once we start going half-court and getting the ball into the paint.
    BillS

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles
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    I do really like the Celtics TV announcers, though. They are down right conversational in their tone. Finally, some guys who don't scream into the mic.
    Tell me you aren't talking about Tommy Heinsohn?

    The only reason he was probably calm was because:

    - the Celtics led the whole way
    - the Pacers weren't getting fouled (he believes no Celtic player ever committed a foul)
    - the Celtics were getting fouled (he believes no Celtic player ever missed a shot or rebound without being fouled)

    I am usually rather neutral when it comes to announcers for other teams, but I shut the sound off if NBA League Pass uses the Boston feed.
    BillS

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    Gold Stagger Hoop's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts about losing to Boston....

    Peck, nice game summary.

    I want to touch on your JO at center point. I like JO at center with Cro at PF, I thought I was one of the only ones. Really, if you look at it closely JO has played center 90% of the time he's been a Pacer. Even when a bigger guy like Tabak or Pollard started at C, they rarely played many minutes and JO still spends the majority of the game at C. When Foster starts he most always guards the other teams PF.

    About the only center JO doesn't guard is Shaq and no team puts one of their main offense weapons on Shaq defensively. JO usually does not guard Duncan or Garnet, he guards the other teams center.

    There are very few good centers, especially offensively. With JO matched up with the other teams center he is more free to help on defense. Help Defense and off the ball blocked shots are what JO is best at anyway.

    I just don't get what the stigma of JO playing center is. Why would he get worn down anymore than starting at PF? There's not a center in the league that can guard JO one on one. Other than being out voted for the Allstar game by Shaq every year, what would be wrong with being officially called the Pacers' starting center?
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