It is a hoot to go over to Realgm and look at all the preposterous trade proposals.
We should try somehow to get one of the good, quick, young point guards out there.
Yes, I would trade Tinsley, if the P's don't care for his locker room influence. And I think there is a chance TPTB don't.
Harrison would stay unless he is needed in a trade for another big. Centers take time to develop and I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
I doubt Jack is a cancer or bad teammate. He's a versatile player who we will probably need. A lot depends on what players we get back in trades.
The Pacers should also use this opportunity to get their luxury tax situation in better hand for next year and beyond. The current situation is unexceptable for the long term well-being of the franchise.
Oh if only I could go back & bring up threads from the summer of 00 when I had to listen over & over & over again how we needed more talented less team oriented players.
How we had to make this youth movement & that in two years tops we would be right back in the title hunt.
This is not at you U.B. because you weren't even U.B. then (you were Pacers for all) but this is to my friends speed, Akmand40, Brich, Brichard, Pman & mostly to you PacersFanForLife.
Talent alone will win you nothing!!!!!! You have to have talent to win, no doubt, but you have to have players willing to submit to a system & to each other to have any chance at all.
As to your letter U.B., I agree with the theory of it. Actually I'm all for it but I am also of this mindset here.
Let's see how the team does without Artest. I do beleive that he was that big of a distraction to the team. I never thought he was the only one, but he was the main event.
Oh, and that was BEFORE we added Granger and Sarunas and got back Foster and Harrison.
We signed Sarunas because of Tinsleys injuries. Jackson and Granger are both fully capable of playing the 3 spot adequately with Granger having MUCH potential to be much better than adequate.
This is a PROVEN playoff team WITHOUT RON ARTEST and with 3 very good players we didn't have last season.
There is NO need for any moves beyond dumping Artest on any idiot GM willing to take him.
Factor in that we'd GET a Decent player in return and we are even more set.
I'm all for dealing Artest (no brainer) and Tinsley. I don't care how well Tinsley plays "when he plays", the guy can't stay healthy. The best player in the world is completely ineffective if sitting on the bench in street clothes.
I'm not ready to give up on Harrison just yet, though, mainly because he has size. It's hard to find guys with his size and athletic ability. But, I'd certainly keep a close eye on him and make him realize (especially if Artest and Tinsley go) that a bad attitude will get him nowhere with this franchise.
Although, given our history with Artest, he may need quite a bit of convincing of that before he truly believes it. We've given Artest too much leeway. Why would Harrison believe he wouldn't be given leeway, too?
wait, wait, wait.. Pacers have a championship to win this year, remember?
if half of the team is going to be changed (which, of course, will not happen), then trade Saras as well to a team that can win the damn thing.
btw, honestly speaking, I think Pacers can win the title even without replacing Artest (simply firing him and that's it). in some ways the NBA system, where you can not fire players and can not lure them from the other teams (with buyouts and higher sallary) whenever you want, is all cozy and very communist, but sometimes (like now) it sucks.
Call me stupid, but I want players who are ready to play right now. I want developed players who can help this team immediately.........not players that we have to keep around for 2-3 years because we think they might be special.
I think getting a player not quite at all-star caliber at SF might be all we need. We did go to the second round last year with an injured Tinsley and JO and no Artest. We gave the Pistons all that they could handle. If we have a healthy JO and Tinsley (somewhat, now that we have Sarunas) and someone decent at SF with Granger backing up, I think it could work. Remember that Austin is also a pretty good "acquisition" since he's been playing well.
I think Artest to Toronto for Bosh would be good since Bosh said he wouldn't resign with Toronto anyways. Artest would be option 1 there and then we can see how many cameras he can destroy while in the midst of a 10 game losing streak.
"He wanted to get to that money time. Time when the hardware was on the table. That's when Roger was going to show up. So all we needed to do was stay close"
Darnell Hillman (Speaking of former teammate Roger Brown)
I read rcary's posts too. I just disagree with him about getting Bosh. If the Raps think they could lose him, and they could. They would be dumb not to take a great trade offer.
If the Raps got Artest, Harrison, and Tinsley, for Bosh, Peterson, and Williams, they would be getting 3 players with at least 3 years left on their contracts. They could build on that.
As is, they have been losing their best players as fast as they acquire them. They are like the Clippers used to be.
Adding Artest, Tinsley and Harrison to the group of players they would keep would assure them of the playoffs. And having a winning team would do more for the Raps in keeping players than giving Bosh a boat load of money.
Look at Minnesota. They have been in the same situation with Garnett for years. Free agents don't want to go to Minnesota.
I believe that the Raptors are willing to take the chance on Bosh until he firmly comes out and says he won't stay a Raptor. If he doesn't say anything, then you can bet the farm that Toronto will hold onto him and throw every last penny in his direction.
They already have building pieces between Bosh, Villanueva, Caulderon, and Joey Graham. Between the 4 of those guys, Bosh is the only guy whose status is up in the air, as the other three (particularly Charlie and Jose) feel indebted to the Raptors for taking a chance on them and absolutely love the city and hope to stay for the long-run.
I know Charlie's comments about himself and Bosh being the next "Duncan and Robinson" were over the top - but everyone realizes that those two can be something special in the future and the Raptors are not going to jeopardize that unless they know FOR SURE that Bosh is leaving.
Even if Bosh said he was going to leave, I'm not so sure they'd want the Artest deal - as Ronnie comes with the obvious risks, and Tinsley would have no spot unless he wanted to backup Jose Caulderon.
The Raptors have proven that they are not well managed so i see
no reason why the Pacers couldn't prey on them.
Our arguments had nothing to do with talent and teamwork, but rather they focused on whether or not the Pacers team had peaked or not. And for the love of peace I won't bring that up again, only to say that we agreed to disagree. We also disagreed about who bared most of the responsiblility for the changes, the players or Walsh... but I digress.
I also think teams can win with some misguided missles. Rasheed Wallace, Vernon Maxwell, and Dennis Rodman all have titles to name a few. You just can't win with an arsenal full of them.
The person I have been most impressed with this year is JO. He isn't forcing anything, he isn't posturing as much, and I don't see him arguing with the officials. Of all the players he does seem to show the ability to mature, but there are too many players on the Dark side of the force and I'm not sure he can overcome that many.
I stand by everything posted back in December
I have to agree, but I would include JO in trade talks and I would try to keep Peja. I'm torn on Harrison. I don't think of him as much of a loose cannon as Artest but I do think he is more like JO was a couple of years ago. The guy doesn't get any breaks because he complains about EVERY SINGLE CALL. JO did that for a year or two and then got better - he still complains too much imho - but he did tone it down. If Harrison would do that he would help himself immensely.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
- Benjamin Franklin
Wow this was quite a "trip"...I started reading this thread without noticing the date it was opened and when most of the comments were made.
I was reading it and thinking WTF are these people talking about, how can we trade Artest if he has been already traded....how come no one was mentioning rebuilding around JO/Peja...did Peja say he does not plan to come back to Pacers.
I generally choose to stay out of the "rebuild the franchise or else" discussions, simply because I don't think we're in that troublesome of a situation. A team like Minnesota needs to rebuild, and they're OUT of playoff contention. How about the Bulls fans who suffered for years after Jordan left? Wasn't Golden State supposed to break through this year? Their fans have something to complain about. I've always been an advocate of the "it could be worse" theory. A true fan sticks by his team through thick and thin. Perfec example: each year will be the year of the Cubbies, and ultimately, they fall through the cracks. But their fans support their squad! Instead of bashing 90% of the guys we have on our team, we need to support them and help will them on into and throughout the playoffs. That's what I thought fans were for. Fortunately, unlike some other squads, the Pacers currently are holding a playoff spot, and you know as well as I do, the start of the playoffs signifies the beginning of a new season (See the NY Knicks of 99). Anything can happen.
Of course, regarding our point guards, we'd all like to mold the 4 we have (I'm including Eddie Gill because he looks to be more cut than the others) to make one super point guard. However, that's not happening. However, the "keep Sarunas - maybe even start him!" ideas worry me. There's not one point guard in the league outside of Andre Miller (and that's very lightly) that I feel somewhat confident with Runi guarding. Don't get me wrong, he's a Hell of a competitor, has superior court awareness and passing skills, and can shoot the lights out; however, he's just more of a liability on the defensive end than JT and AJ.
Other random thoughts:
Granger's a stud - Start collecting his rookie cards now while they're cheaper. His autographed cards will surely skyrocket.
I don't know what I think about Fred playing - I like him a lot, I just don't want him to further injure his hand.
Some of our guys play like they're still in college (or high school even) - every possession matters. I love that.
Jamaal is still the key to our success, and I support him.
Reggie's professionalism rubbed off on a couple of our guys, although he's deeply missed in the lockeroom.
I hope we keep Peja - I'm glad he feels like he got the frest start he needed with us. Good luck to him.
Regardless what happens, Go Pacers!